42 replies to this topic

[AngrySpartan]

No secret that Endo steel saves more weight than Ferro-fibrous. It's a long time dispute, whether to unlock Endo on Omnimechs or not and personally I never liked that idea - it takes away mech personality and just makes mechs clones of each other. So, instead of eliminating Standard structure's natural flaw, I suggest to turn it into a feature:

Currently damage transfers at the rate of 40% from one adjacent component to another. I suggest to make it 20% instead of 40% for standard structure. This will make mechs with standard structure slightly tougher, more capable of shielding and more viable for deadside builds.

Link to the video by Penclick Productions, great showcase how damage transfer works.

First, just look at the omni with no Endo: Nova, Mad Dog, Hellbringer, Summoner, Gargoyle, Warhawk, Executioner, Direwolf. There are some decent mechs here, but none of these is exactly meta. Each one of them would benefit, if only slightly, from this change.

Second, this buff doesn't increase offensive or defensive capabilities directly, but makes it harder to finish you off once you lose a component. Moreover it requires extensive torso twisting and shielding to work at all.

Third, it gives a reason to drop Endo in favor of FF armour on battlemechs. It won't happen often of course, but who knows. Even tankier Atlas? Why not!. Zombie Crab with it's huge side torsos to shield CT? Well, maybe. Players should decide for themselves if they want to sacrifice 1-2 tons of podspace for some questional durability buff. On the other hand it gives an edge to such monstrosities like KDK and MAD-IIC as well. It's not a big deal to drop couple of tons from the engine for even better shielding with MADs torsos.

Poll topic

Your thoughts?

Edited by AngrySpartan, 22 December 2016 - 07:59 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

How about going the other way around, Endo transfers 100% damage while Standard only transfers 40-50% (I'm unsure why this was changed on release of the Clans). Or, even go one step further, Clan Endo transfers 100%, IS Endo transfers 70-75%, and Standard transfers 40-50%.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 22 December 2016 - 08:01 AM.

[AngrySpartan]

My initial though was - give something to mechs with design flaws. E.g. Warhawk is outclassed by MAD-IIC by a big margin. So, instead of unlocking Endo, breaking BT lore, construction rules and etc. let's give it some benefits in a different area.

Never knew transfer was 100% back in the days, though. Makes little sense to make it 100% though, what's the point of shielding than?

Edited by AngrySpartan, 22 December 2016 - 08:09 AM.

[adamts01]

I'm down with that. No matter what, I want to see structure get a buff, as it would make crits actually mean something.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

adamts01, on 22 December 2016 - 08:12 AM, said:

I'm down with that. No matter what, I want to see structure get a buff, as it would make crits actually mean something.

This won't have any affect on the "worthiness" of crits since this only occurs when damage is transferred FROM a destroyed section to another which really is limited to Clan XLs and STDs (one of which always mounts Endo because it needs all the weight savings it can muster).

One problem with going this route is how IS XLs are balanced (if they ever are) as one of the proposed changes (buffing side torso health massively, maintaining side torso death) would actually not see any use in swapping Endo for Standard. It worked for MW4 because of the fact all engines were technically the same.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 22 December 2016 - 08:18 AM.

[AngrySpartan]

adamts01, on 22 December 2016 - 08:12 AM, said:

I'm down with that. No matter what, I want to see structure get a buff, as it would make crits actually mean something.

<Offtop on>
Apparently Mr.Bullock and Co. think the game is too complex already to make a proper critical hit system. And in a way he have a point.
<Offtop off>

The only thing this change is doing - it makes harder to shoot mechs with No Endo through destroyed components. E.g. Mad Dog lost it's ST and get shot with an AC10 in it. At the moment 4 damage will transfer to CT, but only 2 with proposed change. That's it, minor change, but sometimes it will make difference

[1453 R]

An interesting idea and props for originality of notion, but Endo offers you big benefits from the 'MechLab thorugh to the end of a fight. Giving STD a bonus that only comes into play for STD-engine or cXL 'Mechs, and even then only when they've already suffered critical damage, isn't going to balance out the Endo/STD issue.

That said, I see no reason why something like this couldn't be part of an Endo/STD structure balance solution. I especially like the idea of Sphere Endo providing a greater reduction of damage transfer than Clan Endo; that's one of the very few good ways I've seen of trying to naturally add some extra balancing to the disparate Clan/Sphere Endo upgrades.

[Jun Watarase]

Damage transfer should be 100%. Why? Any damage transfer penalty creates a balance problem for spread damage weapons, which are already inferior to pinpoint damage.

[AngrySpartan]

Jun Watarase, on 22 December 2016 - 08:30 AM, said:

Damage transfer should be 100%. Why? Any damage transfer penalty creates a balance problem for spread damage weapons, which are already inferior to pinpoint damage.

It's already not 100% now, it's 40%. Damage transfer makes no effect on how weapon applies its damage.
And it makes no sense to use destroyed components as a shield with 100% transfer.
Just imagine that in an Atlas you receive 60% more CT damage than now if someone shoots the remains on your ST? Hardly makes any sense to me.

I should have been more precise with the aim of this proposal - it's NOT meant to drastically change the game, but to offset inefficiency of FF instead of endo on Omnimechs. For IS this means an option to make your mech a bit more tanky if you have a spare ton or two, nothing more. Doesn't mean it can't be used to buff IS Endo though, it won't change the game a lot, but might streamline the balance.

Edited by AngrySpartan, 22 December 2016 - 08:52 AM.

[Mawai]

AngrySpartan, on 22 December 2016 - 08:08 AM, said:

My initial though was - give something to mechs with design flaws. E.g. Warhawk is outclassed by MAD-IIC by a big margin. So, instead of unlocking Endo, breaking BT lore, construction rules and etc. let's give it some benefits in a different area.

Never knew transfer was 100% back in the days, though. Makes little sense to make it 100% though, what's the point of shielding than?

I'm not sure damage transfer was ever 100%. Zombie cents have been around since closed beta and the reason they were so effective was the damage transfer reduction from arm to ST to CT.

Personally, I like the overall idea of giving some benefit to standard structure over endo to compensate for the extra weight. I also like the idea of clan endo having a greater damage transfer since it takes up fewer critical slots anyway. However, I think 1 100% transfer would be too high.

Maybe 20% for standard structure, 40% for IS endo and 60% for clan endo?

I'd also like to see additional trade offs for ferro armor as well.

[AngrySpartan]

Mawai, on 22 December 2016 - 08:52 AM, said:

I'm not sure damage transfer was ever 100%. Zombie cents have been around since closed beta and the reason they were so effective was the damage transfer reduction from arm to ST to CT.

I'd also like to see additional trade offs for ferro armor as well.

Can't wait for Supernova-3 to make a proper clan zombie! One of the reasons I started the topic.

FF is already inferior to ES in terms of weight savings, and many times you can/want to use only one of them. IMHO it's questionable choice to tax it even more.

Edited by AngrySpartan, 22 December 2016 - 08:58 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

1453 R, on 22 December 2016 - 08:27 AM, said:

An interesting idea and props for originality of notion

This idea has been floated on these forums for a while now, and existed at least in the mods for MW4, maybe even in vanilla. Just wanted to point that out .

Mawai, on 22 December 2016 - 08:52 AM, said:

However, I think 1 100% transfer would be too high.

Why, the effects of damage transfer is one that really only benefits certain geometries which only increase the necessity for ridiculous quirks on some mechs.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 22 December 2016 - 09:05 AM.

[adamts01]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 December 2016 - 08:16 AM, said:

This won't have any affect on the "worthiness" of crits since this only occurs when damage is transferred FROM a destroyed section to another which really is limited to Clan XLs and STDs (one of which always mounts Endo because it needs all the weight savings it can muster).

One problem with going this route is how IS XLs are balanced (if they ever are) as one of the proposed changes (buffing side torso health massively, maintaining side torso death) would actually not see any use in swapping Endo for Standard. It worked for MW4 because of the fact all engines were technically the same.

Lame

AngrySpartan, on 22 December 2016 - 08:23 AM, said:

<Offtop on>
Apparently Mr.Bullock and Co. think the game is too complex already to make a proper critical hit system. And in a way he have a point.
<Offtop off>

The only thing this change is doing - it makes harder to shoot mechs with No Endo through destroyed components. E.g. Mad Dog lost it's ST and get shot with an AC10 in it. At the moment 4 damage will transfer to CT, but only 2 with proposed change. That's it, minor change, but sometimes it will make difference

Double Lame

[vettie]

As much as I like the idea, it is against "lore'

According to Sarna
'Ferro-Fibrous armor (FF) is a special type of armor used by vehicles and BattleMechs. Utilizing a weave of ferro-steel, ferro-titanium, and diamond weave fibers which boosts the tensile strength of the plating^[1][2], it provides more protection per ton than standard armor (12% for Inner Sphere FF, 20% for Clan FF), but takes up more space on the 'Mech or vehicle (14 critical slots for Inner Sphere, 7 for Clan 'Mechs; two slots for Inner Sphere vehicles, one for Clan). The maximum amount of protection is not changed; merely the weight of armor required to achieve that level of protection. For a unit which already has maximum armor protection, it is therefore considered a weight-saving measure, at the cost of critical space.

Endo Steel was designed especially for use in BattleMech skeletons. Using zero-G manufacturing techniques that uniformly mix high-density steel with lower-density titanium and aluminum, the process produces a metal twice as strong per unit of weight as standard skeleton materials thus halving the weight of the chassis, but at an increase in overall bulk (Inner Sphere Endo Steel takes up 14 critical slots, 7 for Clan)"

Both were/are essentially weight saving measures at a cost of internal slots.

Personally, would love to see "standard structure" reduce damage transfer and FF Armour be 'stronger' than standard armour because these are our only choices currently.

[Kroete]

I needed to read it more then one time to realize what was wrong ...

AngrySpartan, on 22 December 2016 - 08:50 AM, said:

And it makes no sense to use destroyed components as a shield with 100% transfer.

... now it makes sense.

They are unable to remove the hitboxes from removed limbs,
the damagetransfer is just another bandaid.

Edited by Kroete, 22 December 2016 - 09:13 AM.

[Jun Watarase]

AngrySpartan, on 22 December 2016 - 08:50 AM, said:

It's already not 100% now, it's 40%. Damage transfer makes no effect on how weapon applies its damage.
And it makes no sense to use destroyed components as a shield with 100% transfer.
Just imagine that in an Atlas you receive 60% more CT damage than now if someone shoots the remains on your ST? Hardly makes any sense to me.

I should have been more precise with the aim of this proposal - it's NOT meant to drastically change the game, but to offset inefficiency of FF instead of endo on Omnimechs. For IS this means an option to make your mech a bit more tanky if you have a spare ton or two, nothing more. Doesn't mean it can't be used to buff IS Endo though, it won't change the game a lot, but might streamline the balance.

Uh, im saying it should be 100%, because weapons like SRMs will always hit destroyed components and take a damage penalty.

[AngrySpartan]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 December 2016 - 09:04 AM, said:

This idea has been floated on these forums for a while now, and existed at least in the mods for MW4, maybe even in vanilla. Just wanted to point that out .

I knew I've stole it somewhere, just don't remember where , thanks for pointing that out!

vettie, on 22 December 2016 - 09:08 AM, said:

As much as I like the idea, it is against "lore'

Pinpoint accuracy and instant convergence against the lore as well, yet we are playing MWO!

Edited by AngrySpartan, 22 December 2016 - 09:16 AM.

[AngrySpartan]

Kroete, on 22 December 2016 - 09:10 AM, said:

I needed to read it more then one time to realize what was wrong ...

... now it makes sense.

They are unable to remove the hitboxes from removed limbs,
the damagetransfer is just another bandaid.

Can't see anything wrong with it. In TT it's 100% transfer because of random chance to hit things. If you hit broken arm in TT it's still a hit and it counts. In a shooter when you can choose where to shoot it makes no sense to punish players for proper damage simulation, hence 40% transfer. And there are intentionally different hitboxes on destroyed parts, just check the video in an opening post - Cataphract arm. Besides it's aesthetically pleasin to see half destroyed mech limbs!

Edited by AngrySpartan, 22 December 2016 - 09:24 AM.

[Mystere]

AngrySpartan, on 22 December 2016 - 08:08 AM, said:

My initial though was - give something to mechs with design flaws. E.g. Warhawk is outclassed by MAD-IIC by a big margin. So, instead of unlocking Endo, breaking BT lore, construction rules and etc. let's give it some benefits in a different area.

Never knew transfer was 100% back in the days, though. Makes little sense to make it 100% though, what's the point of shielding than?

Precisely, make it irrelevant.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

AngrySpartan, on 22 December 2016 - 08:08 AM, said:

Makes little sense to make it 100% though, what's the point of shielding than?

Shielding is a concept that only mechs with appropriate geometry get to take advantage of, removing shielding means more emphasis is put on rolling damage rather than shielding which I'm more a fan of. Shielding and damage low damage transfer rates is what made things like the Stalker and the old zombie Cent so strong for a while.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 22 December 2016 - 09:31 AM.