21 replies to this topic

[Vincent Quatermain]

This poll is all about possible ways to limit the number of matches in FP where one side just steamrolls the other. The poll asks about a wide variety of adjustments that might help with this.

One thing is for sure, the problem will not fix itself. Some mechanics need to be adjusted in order to get consistently closer matches.

[Void Angel]

Not a very useful poll, I'm afraid. I looked it over anyway, but the way the questions are phrased in non-neutral ways makes the results unreliable, even if there were a statistically relevant sample on the forums. For example, "Yes, but not if high-ranked players wait," and, "no, because it won't work" are essentially the same answer. Similarly "not a good idea" and "I hate this" are different kinds of answer.

Edited by Void Angel, 27 December 2016 - 01:51 PM.

[NotASecretAce]

I was around before their were pilot tiers so I don't know too much about them... I am guessing tier 4 isn't that good? A minimum tier sounds like a good idea.

[Monkey Lover]

Tiers don't matter much. I seen really good tier 4 players and really bad tier 2 players. It depends on how much you play.

Do some more clan IS balancing.
No trial mechs
No mechs without at least basic xp. (even higher might be a good idea)
Tonnage bonus to solo pugs

Would be a good start.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 27 December 2016 - 10:28 PM.

[Sjorpha]

"The minimum pilot tier to drop in FW should be"

In my opinion, there should be a skill cap for solo dropping only.

So in order to solo drop you would have to be tier 1 or 2 and no trial mechs.

If you're in a group of 4+ you can be any tier and use trial mechs.

[Vincent Quatermain]

Void Angel, on 27 December 2016 - 01:51 PM, said:

Not a very useful poll, I'm afraid. I looked it over anyway, but the way the questions are phrased in non-neutral ways makes the results unreliable, even if there were a statistically relevant sample on the forums.

There is really no way to have truly neutral poll language. As for a relevant sample, anything other than random selection is prone to selection bias, so it's unscientific regardless of how many respond. Any results are filtered based on "what kinds of people bother to look at the Faction Play section of the Forums."

Monkey Lover, on 27 December 2016 - 10:27 PM, said:

Tiers don't matter much. I seen really good tier 4 players and really bad tier 2 players. It depends on how much you play.

I kind of agree, which is why I think Tier 1 would be way too harsh. But combining "no trial mechs" with "tier 4 minimum" would be almost redundant. Certainly, a better PSR system that wasn't just an experience bar might make the tiers work better as a gate to Faction Play.

Sjorpha, on 27 December 2016 - 11:00 PM, said:

In my opinion, there should be a skill cap for solo dropping only. So in order to solo drop you would have to be tier 1 or 2 and no trial mechs. If you're in a group of 4+ you can be any tier and use trial mechs.

That's an interesting option that I hadn't considered. I still think we should ban trial mechs across the board, but I do like the idea of the tier requirement being for solo FP drops only.

[Fox the Apprentice]

Vincent Quatermain, on 29 December 2016 - 02:03 PM, said:

There is really no way to have truly neutral poll language.
[...]

Doesn't mean you shouldn't try

Edited by Fox the Apprentice, 30 December 2016 - 10:15 AM.

[KingCobra]

None of the above poll options will fix CW/FP the only thing that will fix CW/FP is (SPLIT THE TEAMS FROM PUGS/CASUALS).

So no use voting in this pole.

Edited by KingCobra, 30 December 2016 - 11:32 PM.

[Monkey Lover]

KingCobra, on 30 December 2016 - 11:32 PM, said:

None of the above poll options will fix CW/FP the only thing that will fix CW/FP is (SPLIT THE TEAMS FROM PUGS/CASUALS).

So no use voting in this pole.

Day after the split Q (if you could even find a match)
Posts,
"all i want to do is play with my friend why do i have to fight a 12 man team because im playing with 2 people"
"it was just me and my two friends and emp got on and smashed us why do we have to fight these team"
I saw this with the group q haha


Truth is giving extra tonnage does work. Nerfing teams with low tonnaged works.

They nerfed 12 man teams so much in group q casual teams can't play anymore. Only the top teir teams can fight off 8-12 assault mechs with mediums.

If they had a clan/is+group size+ tier tonnage balance system it would really help.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 30 December 2016 - 11:43 PM.

[KingCobra]

Hate to tell you Monkey but it wont work the reason is a small 2 man or 4 man on each side in a CW/FP with fill in pugs and casuals are always close great games and you know there fun no stomps and very close scores.

But when you put any group size over a 4 man into a CW/FW match its a stomp and a full 12 man premade against smaller group sizes with pug/casual fill ins is always 99% a slaughter stomp fest in favor of the 12 man team.

Teams grouped higher than a 4 man team really need there own CW/FP queue or just split the CW/FP queues pug/casual Vs pug/casual and teams VS teams.

If Russ and PGI keep letting this unbalanced slaughter go on much longer in CW/FP the game mode will just re-die out.

Edited by KingCobra, 30 December 2016 - 11:55 PM.

[Monkey Lover]

KingCobra, on 30 December 2016 - 11:54 PM, said:

Hate to tell you Monkey but it wont work the reason is a small 2 man or 4 man on each side in a CW/FP with fill in pugs and casuals are always close great games and you know there fun no stomps and very close scores.

But when you put any group size over a 4 man into a CW/FW match its a stomp and a full 12 man premade against smaller group sizes with pug/casual fill ins is always 99% a slaughter stomp fest in favor of the 12 man team.

Teams grouped higher than a 4 man team really need there own CW/FP queue or just split the CW/FP queues pug/casual Vs pug/casual and teams VS teams.

If Russ and PGI keep letting this unbalanced slaughter go on much longer in CW/FP the game mode will just re-die out.

Why wouldn't it work? I dont understand its really simple.

100 games
3x4man team wins 25% of the time
12man wins 75% of the time

Nerf 12man drop deck tonnage 50tons.

100 games
3x4man team wins 45% of the time
12man wins 55% of the time
nerf 12man drop tonnage 10 tons.

and so on,At some point there has to be balance.... 12 man team not going to win with 48, 20 ton mech

To balance skill within groups.

12man tier1 groups wins 50% of the time. hold tonnage
12man tier3 group wins 25% of the time.
Buff tonnage on tier3 12 man group.....


Like i said they nerfed 12 man teams so much in group q 2x6man teams win very often. So often Marik Ts no longer runs causal 12 man teams. This is because there is no balance for skill level.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 31 December 2016 - 12:07 AM.

[KingCobra]

Monkey the problem is not one of unbalanced tonnage its a problem of player numbers team groups want to farm pugs/casuals in CW/FP they don't care if new players leave the game mode or the game itself or they don't care if they drive every last pug/casual player from the CW/FP game mode so long as they can dominate FP and get there rewards.

SO its more a matter of keeping both sides of the MWO player base happy and playing and paying into the game to keep it alive.
Splitting the CW/FP queues would do this pugs/casual would get a close FP game almost 90% of the time.

Teams want hard core mode in FP so give it to them let that FP team only queue be any 2man -12 man teams play each other for higher rewards & C-bills and more meaningful game play than the casual/pug FP queues.

Edited by KingCobra, 31 December 2016 - 12:15 AM.

[PlzDie]

Sjorpha, on 27 December 2016 - 11:00 PM, said:

"The minimum pilot tier to drop in FW should be"

In my opinion, there should be a skill cap for solo dropping only.

So in order to solo drop you would have to be tier 1 or 2 and no trial mechs.

If you're in a group of 4+ you can be any tier and use trial mechs.

So by this it would kick me out of FP which is the only mode I play, 98% of the time I get over 1500dmg in matches. You cannot take tier level as a benchmark as far as I know my tier level will not change while playing FP. I solo drop quite a bit and I carry my own weight, I am tier 3 and will probably stay tier 3 cause I only use QP to level mechs so no real good scores there for me. Everybody looks at tier levels as a indicator of skill which it is not it is a xp bar, with enough matches and time everybody will get to tier 1 eventually.

[Monkey Lover]

KingCobra, on 31 December 2016 - 12:10 AM, said:

Monkey the problem is not one of unbalanced tonnage its a problem of player numbers team groups want to farm pugs/casuals in CW/FP they don't care if new players leave the game mode or the game itself or they don't care if they drive every last pug/casual player from the CW/FP game mode so long as they can dominate FP and get there rewards.

SO its more a matter of keeping both sides of the MWO player base happy and playing and paying into the game to keep it alive.
Splitting the CW/FP queues would do this pugs/casual would get a close FP game almost 90% of the time.

Teams want hard core mode in FP so give it to them let that FP team only queue be any 2man -12 man teams play each other for higher rewards & C-bills and more meaningful game play that the casual/pug FP queues.

I dont think you understand my point. The problem is unbalanced tonnage. 12 man teams has the same tonnage as a 2man group of 6. A 12 man team should have a lot less. They can try to farm all they want but they're not going to be able too.
You can balance a 12 man team. Balance makes everyone happy. As long as they balance skill with it.



There is no way they're going to split the q. They wouldn't even split the q for is v is and clan v clan.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 31 December 2016 - 12:21 AM.

[KingCobra]

There is no way they're going to split the q. They wouldn't even split the q for is v is and clan v clan.


Monkey PGI learned from the solo game play mm queues that when they split it was a win/win for them and they retained 90% of the players because the games were so close very few stomps and slaughter just fun matches for the most part and if they do not do this for FP the skill tree and all they have done for 4.1 and FP will die out for lack of new players to that game mode.

So if players are bailing FP by the hundreds every week who will care about tonnages or any other balance?

Edited by KingCobra, 31 December 2016 - 12:25 AM.

[Monkey Lover]

KingCobra, on 31 December 2016 - 12:25 AM, said:

There is no way they're going to split the q. They wouldn't even split the q for is v is and clan v clan.


Monkey PGI learned from the solo game play mm queues that when they split it was a win/win for them and they retained 90% of the players because the games were so close very few stomps and slaughter just fun matches for the most part and if they do not do this for FP the skill tree and all they have done for 4.1 and FP will die out for lack of new players to that game mode.

So if players are bailing FP by the hundreds every week who will care about tonnages or any other balance?

I really dont care if they do or don't i have nothing to "learn about".

If they had balance people wouldn't care about fighting a team. They would have to find other reasons to quit cw maybe for the choke point maps

I would find it funny when teams started to sync drop . It should work well because the pop in cw is very low and there isn't a tier system.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 31 December 2016 - 09:38 PM.

[KingCobra]

If they had balance people wouldn't care about fighting a team.
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Monkey let me tell you about how tonnage does not mean crappola to teams I personally have been on top tier comp teams Clan and IS for 4 years (not this name) and have seen teams on both sides Clan and IS take drop decks of 4 lights and just slaughter smaller team groups and pugs and casuals by the thousands for farming.

Top tier 12 man PREMADES CAN TAKE ANY TONNAGE AND FARM ALMOST EVERYONE in MWO except other similar groups and that's the real reason they don't want to fight other teams.

They just want to farm seal club and slaughter pugs/casuals and small team groups no matter if they kill the game and PGI lets them do this for 4 years now because at one time they financed the game by 50% not its like 20% they only fund the game and its in PGI's best interest to cater to who is paying for the game the most.

Edited by KingCobra, 31 December 2016 - 12:48 AM.

[Vincent Quatermain]

KingCobra, on 30 December 2016 - 11:32 PM, said:

None of the above poll options will fix CW/FP the only thing that will fix CW/FP is (SPLIT THE TEAMS FROM PUGS/CASUALS).

But many of the pugs are grouped, in small groups. Also, many loyalist units drop small groups. How exactly are you going to separate large merc groups from everyone else?

KingCobra, on 30 December 2016 - 11:32 PM, said:

Top tier 12 man PREMADES CAN TAKE ANY TONNAGE AND FARM ALMOST EVERYONE in MWO except other similar groups and that's the real reason they don't want to fight other teams.

Fighting other teams is way more rewarding. I would love to fight more teams, but many of the units have also abandoned FP, because the dirty little secret is that many of the teams are only marginally better than random pugs. I really don't know what PGI can do to make bad teams play to win.

[KingCobra]

Vincent (But many of the pugs are grouped, in small groups. Also, many loyalist units drop small groups. How exactly are you going to separate large merc groups from everyone else? )
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First let say for FP you take all players not grouped up all solo players and they are split Clan or IS by mech choice for the drop they have a choice of whatever tonnage up to 265 in there 2 drop decks and you group them into 12 man groups and let it drop no matter skill level ETC its the same basically as the solo MM but with re-spawns there all loyalists or mercs basically of any clan or IS factions.

Basically what is being played in 4.1 but no groups allowed of any kind just all random pugs or casuals. no big deal for PGI the FP just has no groups in it.
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(Fighting other teams is way more rewarding. I would love to fight more teams, but many of the units have also abandoned FP)
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For FP group queues you just let any size group unit play 4v4-12v12 Clan or IS matches so basically any group size can play FP and they don't just need to be 12 man groups. So lets say you and 3 friends make a 4 man group the FP MM first tries to group you up with another 4 man group if it can you drop and play if it cannot find another four man group it tries next a 8 man group then a 12 man as it final group size to launch a game and play.

So the FP MM will launch games in groups of 4v4-6v6-8v8-12v12 this way small groups can play other small groups in matches and 12 man premades can first fight another 12 man premade as the MM looks for this first if not it selects random small groups to play a 12v12 as its final option.

PGI has the talent to make it work they already have in solo MM matches and private queued matches its not that hard of a MM formula to use and make workable for a final fix for FP balanced gameplay. Plus the FP group queues would have there own rewards based on a hard mode concept and the solo FP queues would have less rewards for there efforts and the team groups they would be loyalists only and still us the loyalist reward system but extend it past level 20 say maybe level 40 or 60.

In the end a lot of solo FP plyers would eventually join larger groups to play in the group queues for higher rewards as there skill levels and mechs choices and load-outs became better.

Edited by KingCobra, 31 December 2016 - 09:41 PM.

[Vincent Quatermain]

KingCobra, on 31 December 2016 - 09:31 PM, said:

First let say for FP you take all players not grouped up all solo players and they are split Clan or IS by mech choice for the drop they have a choice of whatever tonnage up to 265 in there 2 drop decks and you group them into 12 man groups and let it drop no matter skill level ETC its the same basically as the solo MM but with re-spawns there all loyalists or mercs basically of any clan or IS factions.

The concern that people have with split queues is that with the low population, anyone who is grouped will wait a long time for a match. Solo players are very useful for getting matches to form in a timely fashion.

KingCobra, on 31 December 2016 - 09:31 PM, said:

For FP group queues you just let any size group unit play 4v4-12v12 Clan or IS matches so basically any group size can play FP and they don't just need to be 12 man groups.

Now allowing smaller than 12v12 matches would help eliminate the problem of matchmaking, but I worry that a lot of the game modes will be very odd to play with a small number of mechs on the field, particularly invasion and conquest.

I just thought of a different idea, though. What if there were a series of matches being built (say, one for each planet being contested)? People in groups of 4 or more would be auto-assigned to a particular planet. People who were solo or small group would get to choose what planet they went to. The interface would show the group size and average Tier of the players in those groups, then people would queue up accordingly. As people waited on a particular planet, a "Call to Arms" bonus would slowly accumulate for anyone who joined that queue, which would be automatic rewards at end-of-match, win or lose. Thus, you would be incentivized to stay put, and incentivized to fill holes in the queue. It's essentially player-driven matchmaking.