145 replies to this topic

[Snazzy Dragon]

Kshahdoo, on 04 January 2017 - 03:29 AM, said:

Are you aware, that LPL has less duration than CSPL? Are you aware, that clan ballistics (save AC2 and UAC2) shoot with 3 shell-bursts, but do the same damage as IS ones? So to deal the full damage with them, you must hit the target with all 3 shells? Are you aware, that Clan large lasers get a ghost heat when you have more than 2 of them, and IS ones get it when you have more than 3 of them? Are you aware, that IS mechs have way more superb quirks comparing to Clan ones?

The burst fire mechanic is fine-- if you miss you can correct mid burst and still do a lot of damage. If you miss with an IS ballistic, you miss. Period.

The tonnage and slot differences also make IS ballistics pretty lackluster in comparison.

Getting pelted by 4 AC10s (if a current IS mech could even run that!) hurts but getting pelted by 4 cAC10s not only hurts, it's much harder to shoot through because of the constant screen shake + explosion effects. Simply put-- clan ballistics suppress much better. This is a real issue for players on medium to low end rigs-- a friend of mine literally quit the game because they dropped 20 FPS when under fire from clan ballistics.

The laser burn duration differences are there to make IS lasers relevant against clan-- if the burn durations on clan lasers were shorter there would be absolutely no reason to play IS laser boats, as clan lasers already have longer optimal and max ranges, higher damage, and lower slot/tonnage investments.

Ghost head limit to 2 clan large lasers is a good thing-- being able to fire 3 cLPLs without heat penalties would be absolutely devastating, and there would be no reason other than exposure minimization to take cERPPCs over cERLLAS. 10 damage to one spot, or 33 damage to mostly one spot? I would gladly take the latter.

[Kshahdoo]

Snazzy Dragon, on 04 January 2017 - 03:38 AM, said:

The burst fire mechanic is fine-- if you miss you can correct mid burst and still do a lot of damage. If you miss with an IS ballistic, you miss. Period.

The tonnage and slot differences also make IS ballistics pretty lackluster in comparison.

Getting pelted by 4 AC10s (if a current IS mech could even run that!) hurts but getting pelted by 4 cAC10s not only hurts, it's much harder to shoot through because of the constant screen shake + explosion effects. Simply put-- clan ballistics suppress much better. This is a real issue for players on medium to low end rigs-- a friend of mine literally quit the game because they dropped 20 FPS when under fire from clan ballistics.

The laser burn duration differences are there to make IS lasers relevant against clan-- if the burn durations on clan lasers were shorter there would be absolutely no reason to play IS laser boats, as clan lasers already have longer optimal and max ranges, higher damage, and lower slot/tonnage investments.

Ghost head limit to 2 clan large lasers is a good thing-- being able to fire 3 cLPLs without heat penalties would be absolutely devastating, and there would be no reason other than exposure minimization to take cERPPCs over cERLLAS. 10 damage to one spot, or 33 damage to mostly one spot? I would gladly take the latter.

Lol, have you played all of the? My personal experience tells me, that LPL is the best energy weapon in the game and IS ballistic >>> Clans. The only thing I don't like about IS mechs, they're so ******* slow, but it's a trade for a better survivability and weapons. And a lot of people don't see any problem in being slow.

Edited by Kshahdoo, 04 January 2017 - 03:49 AM.

[Steve Pryde]

Snazzy Dragon, on 04 January 2017 - 03:38 AM, said:

Getting pelted by 4 AC10s (if a current IS mech could even run that!) hurts but getting pelted by 4 cAC10s not only hurts, it's much harder to shoot through because of the constant screen shake + explosion effects. Simply put-- clan ballistics suppress much better. This is a real issue for players on medium to low end rigs-- a friend of mine literally quit the game because they dropped 20 FPS when under fire from clan ballistics.

Since when became burst fire acs seen as an advantage lol.

[DovisKhan]

brroleg, on 04 January 2017 - 03:30 AM, said:

Okey.

I could come up only with this 2 builds




First variant (pure laser) even has TC which gives him whopping 54m range advantage. But still problem with C-ERLL burn time is there and he will not be able to do any serious damage at long range. While JESTER will be able to do some noticeable damage, yes, a little less than to Hellbringer, cause Ebon can spread damage a little better, but only a little better, cause hitboxes is big and burn time of IS ERLL is still very short

Second variant (ballistic and laser) will do some cockpit shake to JESTER with his UAC2's, and will paint him some yellow all over the mech with his C-ERLL lightsabers. He will do a little better at range than first variant. But JESTER still will do accurate pinpoint damage, maybe will spread a little bit more cause of cockpit shake.

Id say in long range second variant (ballistic and laser) is better than first (pure laser)

Now most interesting part for both builds is close range. At this range both variants must forget about their CERLL or they will explode from heat.

First variant (pure laser)(which is weaker at long range) will be stronger at close range, and probably will be able to cripple JESTER, maybe even kill if very lucky and JESTER will make mistake in torso twisting. But remember, this first variant was poor at long range, so JESTER has almost fresh armor for this close fight, while Ebon will come to this fight pretty beat-up.
Second variant (ballistic and laser)(which is stronger at long range) will be annoying for JESTER to fight at close range cause of cockpit shake, but JESTER will be winning close range trades with this variant cause of bigger sustained DPS.

BUT. For this most interesting close range part to even start working - Ebon must first get to this close range. But JESTER has speed advantage, so Ebon will have hard time closing distance.




Overall, yes, Ebon will do better against JESTER than Hellbringer did. But not much. Ebon will be on subpar with JESTER at best (not even close to "ClanOP")

I'm assuming you're trolling with this, but I'll indulge


Lets do this:

You bring that ERLL Jester


Me or someone brings this:


http://mwo.smurfy-ne...13989ede5d2888e


It moves faster, peeks from hills tops or sides better because of it.


CERPPCs always outrade ERLL, it also has cooldown, and less heat generation quirks AND a velocity quirk


Better than Jester in every single way


Or this:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b#i=403&l=stock


Didn't even change it, it's the steam sale one, will outrade at both long and close range



ALSO here's some weapon comparisons, better Clan equivalent for every IS weapon



1) IS small and IS Small pulse - completely worthless, can be replaced by Clan Machinegun


2) IS medium - replaceable by Clan Small, example:

6 IS mediums do 30 damage for 24 heat at 270 range - 6 tons
6 Clan smalls do 30 damage for 18 heat at 200 range - 3 tons


You can't use 6 IS Mediums as a back up weapon - too hot, too much weight, not enough hardpoints left

You can use 6 Clan Smalls - little weight, more hardpoints and better heat dissipation allows you to



Example - you can have a Clan mech with 2 CERPPCs and 6 Small lasers for close quarters, there is no way you can have an IS mech with 2 ERPPCs and 6 medium lasers without sacrificing something important


3) IS LL - replaced by Clan Medium, 9 damage for 7 heat and 5 tons vs 7 damage for 6 heat and 1 ton


No contest, Clan medium is downright better


Without ghost heat you can use 3 LL for 27 damage at 450 range and 21 heat for 15 tons vs 42 damage at 445 range for 13 tons (TC7 + 6 CERMED) - yes it would be hotter, but that does not matter, because you peek, go back and cool down

3) IS ERLL - replaced by Clan Large Pulse, it's better in near every way for just 1 ton more, slightly less range but that's irrelevant since you're not a turret and you CAN move believe it or not, so closing that irrelevantly small distance is no problem


4) Clan PPCs are just better, period, more damage, less weight, less space used for ~same heat.


If you involve quirks - do yourself a favor and use Clan mechs that have quirks as well, the suddenly Warhawk and Linebacker appears, both with significant ppc quirks that help them be superior ppc mechs than any IS equivalent.


5) LRMs - absolutely no contest, clans have them for half the weight, doesn't matter that salvos are different, they're still much, much, much better


6) Clan ballistics, no contest, they're just better, there is a niche exceptions, sure, but at the extremes, they're just better.


There is absolutely nothing that can match a Direwhale with 8 cuac2s, it will absolutely anihilate any IS assault boating ballistics

KDK3 will be better in all other cases


7) SRMs - hah, don't even compare, aside from a few mechs, it's absolutely not a contest, Clans win bigtime



ALL in ALL - CLAN tech is better, that's why I wouldn't even mibd a 230 vs 260 tons, I could still manage to bring equivalent force with that much less tonnage

Edited by DovisKhan, 04 January 2017 - 04:22 AM.

[brroleg]

DovisKhan, on 04 January 2017 - 04:02 AM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...13989ede5d2888e

CERPPCs always outrade ERLL, it also has cooldown, and less heat generation quirks AND a velocity quirk

On paper CERPPC is better than ERLL, but in reality its projectile weapon with which even god-like players will miss a lot. While with ERLL you never miss, unless potato. And CERPPC has not so much more damage than ERLL to forgive a miss

Quote

CERPPCs always outrade ERLL

Only by 135m. Not that much to be deal breaker, and unlike lasers(where range is pure pros without cons), for projectile weapons range has cons (the more range the harder to score a hit)


Overall, yes your build can win, but only if piloted by player with god-like skills who almost never miss with CERPPS. While in JESTER to be maximum effective, just high skills will be enough.

Quote

You bring that ERLL Jester

I dont have money for JESTER. And i think my skills just average, so if you have god-like skills you will win. But i can try if will buy me a JESTER. Or better, find some high-skilled pilot that have JESTER and will agree to fight 1v1 fairly (at full power without giveaway) against your CERPPS build on some big open map like Polar Highlands, record it on youtube and show us (it will be very interesting to see)

Edited by brroleg, 04 January 2017 - 04:46 AM.

[brroleg]

Quote

6 IS mediums do 30 damage for 24 heat at 270 range

Your forgeting 10% range quirk on almost all IS mechs with more than 2 energy hardpoints. So its not 270 range its 297. 100m more range is thing to be considered in IS MEDs vs C-SML

Quote

IS ERLL - replaced by Clan Large Pulse, it's better in near every way for just 1 ton more, slightly less range

CLP: 600-840m
IS ERLL: 742-1485m (10% range quirk)

Edited by brroleg, 04 January 2017 - 04:41 AM.

[El Bandito]

Kshahdoo, on 04 January 2017 - 03:29 AM, said:

Are you aware, that LPL has less duration than CSPL? Are you aware, that clan ballistics (save AC2 and UAC2) shoot with 3 shell-bursts, but do the same damage as IS ones? So to deal the full damage with them, you must hit the target with all 3 shells? Are you aware, that Clan large lasers get a ghost heat when you have more than 2 of them, and IS ones get it when you have more than 3 of them? Are you aware, that IS mechs have way better quirks than Clan ones?

1. CLPL has longer range, damage, and costs 1 ton less. It is certainly not inferior than IS LPL.

2. IS ballistics are heavy and bulky, which means they can't be boated as easily as Clan ACs. Heck, you can't even equip dual IS UAC5s on single XL torso, while Clanners can equip dual CUAC10s on a single XL torso. Also, CUAC5 shoots only 2 pellets.

3. Clan large class lasers have GH limit of two, but thanks to the wonder that is CERML, and lighter Clan ballistics, and half-weight Clan missiles, they can be used along with far more weapons than IS large class lasers.

4. IS mechs in general have better quirks than Clan mechs, but that's only because IS tech sucks compared to Clan tech. And quirks are frequently prone to change, making them unreliable. And EVEN with good quirked IS mechs, top MWO players will still choose mostly quirkless Clan mechs for serious matches. Clan mechs are just that good.

brroleg, on 04 January 2017 - 04:37 AM, said:

Your forgeting 10% range quirk on almost all IS mechs with more than 2 energy hardpoints. So its not 270 range its 297.

You need to go to this site, check the IS quirks for mechs with more than 2 energy hardpoints, and then realize what an utterly ignorant and stupid comment you just wrote. http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/

How many times do I have to tell you to know your facts before you write a post, until you get a clue and do just that?

Edited by El Bandito, 04 January 2017 - 04:50 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

brroleg, on 04 January 2017 - 04:37 AM, said:

Your forgeting 10% range quirk on almost all IS mechs with more than 2 energy hardpoints. So its not 270 range its 297. 100m more range is thing to be considered in IS MEDs vs C-SML



CLP: 600-840m
IS ERLL: 742-1485m (10% range quirk)

uho oh 100m range...well this matters must be a reason that the small pulse Crow or Nova are so successful - I wonder why when they have 100m range less.

range is a nice thing to make weapon balance look good on paper - 50m there or 100m then and it looks good.
But usually given the "usual" speed those 100m are nothing. the std clan heavy with moves 100m in ~ 4seconds.

Oh yes its a complete alpha cycle... but we are talking about clan heavys....it would be a bad mech with just 6 ER-Small Lasers.

[DovisKhan]

brroleg, on 04 January 2017 - 04:33 AM, said:

On paper CERPPC is better than ERLL, but in reality its projectile weapon with which even god-like players will miss a lot. While with ERLL you never miss, unless potato. And CERPPC has not so much more damage than ERLL to forgive a miss


Only by 135m. Not that much to be deal breaker, and unlike lasers(where range is pure pros without cons), for projectile weapons range has cons (the more range the harder to score a hit)


Overall, yes your build can win, but only if piloted by player with god-like skills who almost never miss with CERPPS. While in JESTER to be maximum effective, just high skills will be enough.





I dont have money for JESTER And i think my skills just average, so if you have god-like skills you will win. But i can try if will buy me a JESTER. Or better, find some high-skilled pilot that have JESTER and will agree to fight 1v1 fairly (at full power without giveaway) against your CERPPS build on some big open map like Polar Highlands, record it on youtube and show us (it will be very interesting to see)

brroleg, on 04 January 2017 - 04:33 AM, said:

On paper CERPPC is better than ERLL, but in reality its projectile weapon with which even god-like players will miss a lot. While with ERLL you never miss, unless potato. And CERPPC has not so much more damage than ERLL to forgive a miss


Only by 135m. Not that much to be deal breaker, and unlike lasers(where range is pure pros without cons), for projectile weapons range has cons (the more range the harder to score a hit)


Overall, yes your build can win, but only if piloted by player with god-like skills who almost never miss with CERPPS. While in JESTER to be maximum effective, just high skills will be enough.





I dont have money for JESTER And i think my skills just average, so if you have god-like skills you will win. But i can try if will buy me a JESTER. Or better, find some high-skilled pilot that have JESTER and will agree to fight 1v1 fairly (at full power without giveaway) against your CERPPS build on some big open map like Polar Highlands, record it on youtube and show us (it will be very interesting to see)

Well, accuracy wise I don't know if I'm average, better or worse, however, I can compare myself using one weapon vs myself using a different weapon


In case of ERLL vs CERPPC, the difference would be 84% vs 62%, I tend to shoot at nothing quite a bit before I meet the enemy to clear the boredom of simply walking, I have no idea if that affects the stats

Anyhow, that's not that high of a difference, include the fact that I can torso twist away an ERLL while its channeling, but if a ppc hits, it hits for all the damage it has


So basically the higher heat and cooldown of the cerppc is offset by the fact that you don't need to show your face while you are cooling down.

You can peek faster, since you have significantly more speed

You can get into a much more favorable position because of that as well


I play both Clans and I know it's a bit easy mode really if going vs the same weight, that's why the Clans have lower drop deck weight

[MikeBend]

Wait, wait, i got a HBR build, that will obliterate Jester on (how did you call it?) big open map?

behold!

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...5422911510fea8e

Jester hasn`t got a chance against this ultra long range stealthy super heat efficient Mech of Death!

Yes, that was sarcasm. Also - clan tech is op. Funny to see someone state otherwise.

Edited by MikeBend, 04 January 2017 - 05:00 AM.

[Jerry Beard]

Not to stir the pot but if Clan mechs are inferior than please explain what is going on in FW then? The only explanations I can come up with if you are correct is that while the best teams are playing Clan ATM they are but a small part of the clan team so the rest of the boating firing and complete pinpoint damage being done by the clans is because they are cheating??/ Is this what you are trying to tell us???? I mean really??? Please explain this??? What is beig shown here may make sense but what is being witnessed on battlefield is far different. You are doing the old engineer says it will work while the grunt who is using it displays that it doesn't. The get gud crowd by your explanation are cheats and hacks then. Since there is no way on earth that clan mechs compare to IS yet here we are clans rolling the IS yet again. Even with Tonnage advantage. I find the argument that all the best/organized teams being clan argument does not hold. Thank you for explaining what I always believed to be happening. The IS at worst should be walking away with at least 40% wins and planet tags..

[DovisKhan]

brroleg, on 04 January 2017 - 04:37 AM, said:

Your forgeting 10% range quirk on almost all IS mechs with more than 2 energy hardpoints. So its not 270 range its 297. 100m more range is thing to be considered in IS MEDs vs C-SML



CLP: 600-840m
IS ERLL: 742-1485m (10% range quirk)

You're not ddressing the main point - Clan smalls are as effective, while being only a secondary weapon system on a given mech. If they're the main system, there would be 10-12 of them, which sherds any IS mech that has IS mediums as a main weapon.


Both weapons systems are most widely used as main weapons in the medium weight range, not coincidentally dominated by the Nova and the Stormcrow, who can mount 12 and 13 of them respectively

[Snazzy Dragon]

DovisKhan, on 04 January 2017 - 05:01 AM, said:

You're not ddressing the main point - Clan smalls are as effective, while being only a secondary weapon system on a given mech. If they're the main system, there would be 10-12 of them, which sherds any IS mech that has IS mediums as a main weapon.


Both weapons systems are most widely used as main weapons in the medium weight range, not coincidentally dominated by the Nova and the Stormcrow, who can mount 12 and 13 of them respectively

Nova can actually mount 14 small lasers. Not that it's optimal, but the choice exists..

[brroleg]

El Bandito, on 04 January 2017 - 04:43 AM, said:

You need to go to this site, check the IS quirks for mechs with more than 2 energy hardpoints, and then realize what an utterly ignorant and stupid comment you just wrote. http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/

Fine . I will now state all IS chassis that has +10% energy range quirk:

LOCUST
COMMANDO
SPIDER
URBANMECH
FIRESTARTER
JENNER
PANTHER
RAVEN
WOLFHOUND
CICADA
BLACKJACK
VINDICATOR
CRAB
ENFORCER
HUNCHBACK
GRIFFIN
KINTARO
WOLVERINE
DRAGON
QUICKDRAW
RIFLEMAN
CATAPULT
THUNDERBOLT
ARCHER
CATAPHRACT
GRASSHOPPER
WARHAMMER
BLACK KNIGHT (this have +15%)
MARAUDER
AWESOME
ZEUS
BATTLEMASTER
STALKER
CYCLOPS
HIGHLANDER
BANSHEE
ATLAS
KING CRAB




Sooooooo. Who is not in this list? Victor and Mauler? Fine, i will correct myself. "all IS mechs has +10 energy range quirk except Victor and Mauler"

Edited by brroleg, 04 January 2017 - 05:11 AM.

[El Bandito]

brroleg, on 04 January 2017 - 05:08 AM, said:

Fine . I will now state all IS chassis that +10% energy range quirk:

LOCUST
COMMANDO
SPIDER
URBANMECH
FIRESTARTER
JENNER
PANTHER
RAVEN
WOLFHOUND
CICADA
BLACKJACK
VINDICATOR
CRAB
ENFORCER
HUNCHBACK
GRIFFIN
KINTARO
WOLVERINE
DRAGON
QUICKDRAW
RIFLEMAN
CATAPULT
THUNDERBOLT
ARCHER
CATAPHRACT
GRASSHOPPER
WARHAMMER
BLACK KNIGHT (this have +15%)
MARAUDER
AWESOME
ZEUS
BATTLEMASTER
STALKER
CYCLOPS
HIGHLANDER
BANSHEE
ATLAS
KING CRAB

Sooooooo. Who is not in this list? Victor and Mauler? Fine, i will correct myself. "all IS mechs has +10 energy range quirk except Victor and Mauler"

Except you are being so ignorant as to ignore the many IS variants without 10% energy range quirk, but with more than 2 energy hardpoints. For example, Griffin has 3 variants with more than 2 energy hardpoints, but only one of them has +10% energy range. Then what about the other two? Go and count the amount of IS mech variants without +10% energy range, and compare that against the number of IS mechs that have it. Compared to that, ALL Clan mechs have long range lasers without quirks.


Equating chassis with individual variants is just so dumb. We might as well say Awesome sucks as LRM boat because we don't count the 8R.

Edited by El Bandito, 04 January 2017 - 05:21 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Karl Streiger, on 04 January 2017 - 04:51 AM, said:

uho oh 100m range...well this matters must be a reason that the small pulse Crow or Nova are so successful - I wonder why when they have 100m range less.

range is a nice thing to make weapon balance look good on paper - 50m there or 100m then and it looks good.
But usually given the "usual" speed those 100m are nothing. the std clan heavy with moves 100m in ~ 4seconds.

Oh yes its a complete alpha cycle... but we are talking about clan heavys....it would be a bad mech with just 6 ER-Small Lasers.

they aren't that successful, they are rather niche and only work well in specific conditions. if people would pay attention to loadouts they souldn't have issues with these 2 mechs. And yes these 4 seconds DO matter, because thos 4 seconds put you 2 volleys ahead, which cna make you properly cripple that mech, like shooting a leg off and then see how far they cross the distance you cna increase at will. The short range mechs have the range disadvantag and they will ahve to come to you or there will eb no engagement.

[Karl Streiger]

Lily from animove, on 04 January 2017 - 05:15 AM, said:

they aren't that successful, they are rather niche and only work well in specific conditions. if people would pay attention to loadouts they souldn't have issues with these 2 mechs. And yes these 4 seconds DO matter, because thos 4 seconds put you 2 volleys ahead, which cna make you properly cripple that mech, like shooting a leg off and then see how far they cross the distance you cna increase at will. The short range mechs have the range disadvantag and they will ahve to come to you or there will eb no engagement.

Right...as said if you only have 6 Small Laser on your heavy and charge over open terrain to get in range you should die before getting in range.

But wait I think i run a Ebon Jag with 6 ER Small Lasers.... backed up by 2 ERPPCs or 2 LPL (it doesn't fit my playstyle yet)
Don't be mistaken those 2 ERPPCs are my main guns.... also have the notorious Thunder Bolt with 2 ERPPCs - while the later got the quirks that he might win in a 1 on 1 range duell - the Ebon is a good portion faster and can go into short range combat were my TDR might have 3 Medium Lasers.
(Still not happy with secondary armament - maybe i should go backt to Flammer/SPL and Machine Guns)

But as said in a 1 on 1 - tell me when did you have the last 1 on 1 engagement that did happen in a 12 vs 12?

[Yellonet]

It's a troll post, but it's still true. It's just that the examples are bad. The difference is still there if you put decent engines and weapons on the mechs.

[DovisKhan]

Snazzy Dragon, on 04 January 2017 - 05:07 AM, said:

Nova can actually mount 14 small lasers. Not that it's optimal, but the choice exists..

Well you can even do 15, if you own the hero, that's a bit ridiculous


Lol you could also do a 90 spl alpha and suicide, but kill someone with that

Edited by DovisKhan, 04 January 2017 - 05:52 AM.

[Snazzy Dragon]

DovisKhan, on 04 January 2017 - 05:51 AM, said:

Well you can even do 15, if you own the hero, that's a bit ridiculous


Lol you could also do a 90 spl alpha and suicide, but kill someone with that

Actually, not true-- the lasers would cut out before all the damage is delivered.