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Health Of Weapons

Weapons

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#1 white0Fox

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 07:23 AM

Posted Image
(Sorry for my bad english)
Atlas 7S with AC/20, right ST open AC destroyd
Sleipnir with 4xUAC5, ST open one or both AC's destroyd
Warhammer with 2xAC10 ST open AC destryed

Why dont compares the Health of a Wepon to her own Weight and number of Slots ?

When i look at the Health per Slots, LPL are great and AC's are Trash...

Why have all Wepons and "Support and Utility Weapons" the same Health (10) ?

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#2 El Bandito

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 08:54 AM

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#3 Juodas Varnas

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 08:58 AM

Who cares?
Only mechs with absolutely insane structure quirks even lose weapons before losing the entire section, due to the moronically huge damage alpha environment we play in.

#4 wolf74

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 09:32 AM

Be happy they are at 10hp, if they followed TT they would have a Health of between 0.1 (M.G. Damage) to 1

#5 Mcgral18

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 01:19 PM

We've been asking question for years


There are 4 items which do not have 10 HP, IIRC
cGauss Rifle (5)
ECM (3)
Engine (15)
AC20(18)

#6 FupDup

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 01:21 PM

View PostEl Bandito, on 07 January 2017 - 08:54 AM, said:

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Huh? Tabletop rules don't have item health period. Tabletop rules dictate that any weapon that is critically hit will be instantly destroyed every time. Even a single Small Laser crit will instantly destroy an AC/20 in TT.

#7 Deathlike

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 01:32 PM

View PostMcgral18, on 07 January 2017 - 01:19 PM, said:

We've been asking question for years


There are 4 items which do not have 10 HP, IIRC
cGauss Rifle (5)
ECM (3)
Engine (15)
AC20(18)


Aggressive balancing amirite?

#8 Greyboots

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 03:28 PM

View Postwhite0Fox, on 07 January 2017 - 07:23 AM, said:


(Sorry for my bad english)
Atlas 7S with AC/20, right ST open AC destroyd
Sleipnir with 4xUAC5, ST open one or both AC's destroyd
Warhammer with 2xAC10 ST open AC destryed

Why dont compares the Health of a Wepon to her own Weight and number of Slots ?

When i look at the Health per Slots, LPL are great and AC's are Trash...

Why have all Wepons and "Support and Utility Weapons" the same Health (10) ?



Mostly because it won't work.

Lasers deal their damage over time and their crits are also broken down in the same way. This means that lasers deal very close to their average crit stuff MOST of the time. It's not a coincidence that the mechs you list are all IS.

IS weapons are larger than their clan counterparts which means that Crit padding is a lot more effective. That's not "the problem" but it shows where it comes from.

The appropriate way would be to have health based on the number of slots because this is what determines how much crit damage is taken.

The next factor is weapon weight and on this one I might be wrong so take it with a grain of salt. Engines to my knowledge still don't take crit damage so XL engines don't "crit pad".

Large weapons + laser reliability in dealing crit damage + laser Meta (+ clan targeting computer crit bonuses for those that use them) = if your weapon is destroyed instantly the chances are that increasing it's health just isn't going to help much.

To use clan Vs IS as an example:

So in the case of an Atlas DDC, we put an AC 20 in the side torso which leaves 2 spaces. You can't crit pad with DHS as there's only 2 spaces left and the best you can do is put in an MG and leave one space empty. Use single heat sinks and you can fill both slots.

A clan 100 ton mech with a UAC AC20 in a side torso on the other hand, has an XL engine and can put in a UAC 20 and pad the remaining 2 slots with a 2-slot double heat sink. More can be hit than just the AC 20 so it lasts longer.

In this case, balancing on weight and crit slots doesn't work either because the ability to pad will make a difference to how long it takes the weapon to be destroyed because the damage has somewhere else to go.

Because Lasers are part of the "issue" this means that torso twist speed also makes a difference. Twisting away from lasers, preventing them from getting in sustained hits reaching their crit potential, makes these weapons last longer. This means engine size and twist speed quirks also make a difference to how long these weapons can survive.

It's genuinely not as simple as a lot of people seem to think and there's probably something I haven't thought about yet.

While a health buff is the only end answer, how to apply it can be done in different ways. Personally I'm in favour of the weapon health being quirked on mechs that need it because there's a lot that don't.

#9 Deathlike

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 04:19 PM

"Health" affects equipment with greater crit numbers more than those that are smaller. It makes one question why there aren't different health numbers for dakka weapons (AC20 and Gauss being the prime exceptions) than there are for the smaller bits (AC5/UAC5/etc) and to a lesser extent bigger LRM racks (mostly IS LRM15/IS LRM20).

But hey... it's Lostech.

Edited by Deathlike, 07 January 2017 - 04:20 PM.


#10 Mcgral18

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 05:19 PM

View PostGreyboots, on 07 January 2017 - 03:28 PM, said:

To use clan Vs IS as an example:

So in the case of an Atlas DDC, we put an AC 20 in the side torso which leaves 2 spaces. You can't crit pad with DHS as there's only 2 spaces left and the best you can do is put in an MG and leave one space empty. Use single heat sinks and you can fill both slots.

A clan 100 ton mech with a UAC AC20 in a side torso on the other hand, has an XL engine and can put in a UAC 20 and pad the remaining 2 slots with a 2-slot double heat sink. More can be hit than just the AC 20 so it lasts longer.


Engines do Crit pad, as does ammo, actuators and face components
Posted Image

XL engines just have some of the worst HP/Crit having 15 HP for all their slots (6-12 slots) to the 10 HP/slot of the typical item.

#11 Trollfeed

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 05:59 PM

In TT rules weapons that take more than one slot aren't usually destroyed by the first crit they take. There's a table where you roll on what your crit does. There's stuff like making hitting with that weapon harder, less damage, more heat or ammo feed getting damaged giving the change for the gun blow up everytime you shoot. One option is to destroy weapon outright but you need to roll high for that.

This is one more a good example again how their poor implementation of TT rules hurts the game.

Edited by Trollfeed, 07 January 2017 - 06:01 PM.






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