198 replies to this topic

[Weaselball]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 07 January 2017 - 11:25 AM, said:

Under same moderate fire in tabletop, can you also lose that same kodiak in 1 turn>?

As Bishop stated, short answer: "no." Also, this is not tabletop. Stop using that word.

[Vxheous]

Weaselball, on 07 January 2017 - 11:33 AM, said:

As Bishop stated, short answer: "no." Also, this is not tabletop. Stop using that word.

Exactly, this is Mechwarrior, and TTK is fine

[Weaselball]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 07 January 2017 - 11:54 AM, said:

Exactly, this is Mechwarrior, and TTK is fine

I mean, you're wrong, but whatever.

[Gas Guzzler]

Weaselball, on 07 January 2017 - 11:56 AM, said:

I mean, you're wrong, but whatever.

No you are wrong actually. TTK is on par with other MechWarrior game.... longer in fact.

[VitriolicViolet]

i personally think TTK is just to low, just a little. To improve it without weird mechanics like GH or ED i would suggest taking the aiming effect from JJs or MASC and applying that to alpha strikes, with some tweaks. It would remove perfect convergence which is the issue when it comes to this, no messing with armor or heat or odd mechanics.

[Gas Guzzler]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 January 2017 - 11:27 AM, said:

Unlikely. Having played TT for 29 years. The situations where one even remotely faces the amount of fire we do in MWO is insanely rare, and to hit is not only massively harder, but also, ya know..random?

GGClose, though.

You mean its rare that 8 mechs would all fire their weapons at one target in TT? Yeah I'm not surprised.

Weaselball, on 07 January 2017 - 08:59 AM, said:

If you think firing double Gauss + 2 PPC at once without any real penalty isn't a problem, or firing 8+ medium pulse lasers into a mech at once without any real penalty isn't a problem, or firing an SRM-30 into a mech at close range without any real penalty is a problem (read: heat isn't an issue with most of these alpha-boats) then I laugh at you with a tinge of pity in my scoff.

I don't know what you expect... this is MechWarrior.

[Weaselball]

Gas Guzzler, on 07 January 2017 - 12:10 PM, said:

No you are wrong actually. TTK is on par with other MechWarrior game.... longer in fact.

You say that like TTK is a good thing where it's at. Battlefield 1 has a longer TTK and that game has people on horseback charging tanks. So basically, you're wrong. But keep on pretending you're not.

[Bishop Steiner]

Gas Guzzler, on 07 January 2017 - 12:17 PM, said:

You mean its rare that 8 mechs would all fire their weapons at one target in TT? Yeah I'm not surprised.

Rare they would all have LoS, that they would all be so close as to have the EZmode aim we have in MWO, etc.

It TT, on average less than half the shots taken hit, and those that do aren't all perfectly converged to one location (arguably it can be a skosh too random... especially with changes to hatchet rules,etc). But things like movement, cover, target movement have a much higher impact on accuracy than in MWO, which I'm sorry to say, is undeniably about as EZmode an aiming mechanic as any featured in any major FPS or Vehicular Combat game of note.

TT can take TTK arguably too far one way, MWO (and previous MW titles, tbh, like the instagib legging of MW3) take it too far the other.

I'd kill to have aiming, penetration, etc more akin to something like WoT or WoWS. But apparently, the only "skill" is how steady one can hold a mouse on a pixel when absolutely nothing actually affects it accuracy. Or how learning to compensate is apparently the antithesis of skill.

[Vxheous]

Weaselball, on 07 January 2017 - 12:23 PM, said:

You say that like TTK is a good thing where it's at. Battlefield 1 has a longer TTK and that game has people on horseback charging tanks. So basically, you're wrong. But keep on pretending you're not.

That's because Battlefield 1 horses are like the equivalent to our super-quirked Atlas....moving at almost light mech speed

Edited by Vxheous Kerensky, 07 January 2017 - 12:29 PM.

[NRP]

I think the time to kill is ok where it is right now. It makes positioning, situational awareness, and teamwork very important. Gotta think about what you and your team are doing, before you actually do it.

[Gas Guzzler]

Weaselball, on 07 January 2017 - 12:23 PM, said:

You say that like TTK is a good thing where it's at. Battlefield 1 has a longer TTK and that game has people on horseback charging tanks. So basically, you're wrong. But keep on pretending you're not.

LOL a rifle is a one shot kill on Infantry in BF1. If your TTK in MWO is shorter than that, then that is your problem.

[Gas Guzzler]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 January 2017 - 12:24 PM, said:

Rare they would all have LoS, that they would all be so close as to have the EZmode aim we have in MWO, etc.

Do you complement your opponents on how good their "aim" is?

Lol, there is no aiming in TT so how could you compare MWO aiming to dice rolling?

[BearFlag]

TTK is low. It should be closer to what is was in closed Beta.

Power creep in the form of Clan weapons, hard points, mech eliting, and quirks come to a focus, literally, in pin point weapons that remain pin point under all conditions except while jumping.

Both weapons balance and TTK are computational problems with computational solutions. It's not nearly as difficult as many surmise. PGI's approach has never been systematic and often seems nearly random. This has led many to believe that the cleverness of players exceeds the power of an engineer. Not true. Better believe that a software universe is under near total control.

A simple solution that PGI could handle would be to just normalize all weapons to the down side. Stop trying to "balance" and ditch Clan weapons. Make all weapons actually equal. Not popular, I think.

If it were my game, instead of mechanics like Ghost Heat and ED, I would have built (long ago) a tunable computational model that factors all weapons characteristics (range, dmg, cooldown, etc). Then tweak it from experience until it's in the ballpark. Then you use it solve for whatever. Heat generation is the most reasonable limiting factor to solve for. This is already done haphazardly in small vs. large, Clan vs. IS weapons. The obvious advantage to a dynamic system is that any weapon's parameter could be fiddled with and you get an instant recalc of X (heat in this case). It would also allow as-built calcs. So if a stock laser generates 3 heat, the same elited, quirked and moduled laser might generate 3.4 heat.

Something like this could be combined with other game elements to produce whatever TTK you want.

[fat4eyes]

TTK feels low in tier 1 matches feel high but you guys should try out a few lower tier matches. If they increase TTK more, those matches will take forever and will feel indecisive. We don't want to make the new player experience any worse.

[Cog777]

BearFlag, on 07 January 2017 - 01:26 PM, said:

TTK is low. It should be closer to what is was in closed Beta.

Power creep in the form of Clan weapons, hard points, mech eliting, and quirks come to a focus, literally, in pin point weapons that remain pin point under all conditions except while jumping.

Both weapons balance and TTK are computational problems with computational solutions. It's not nearly as difficult as many surmise. PGI's approach has never been systematic and often seems nearly random. This has led many to believe that the cleverness of players exceeds the power of an engineer. Not true. Better believe that a software universe is under near total control.

A simple solution that PGI could handle would be to just normalize all weapons to the down side. Stop trying to "balance" and ditch Clan weapons. Make all weapons actually equal. Not popular, I think.

If it were my game, instead of mechanics like Ghost Heat and ED, I would have built (long ago) a tunable computational model that factors all weapons characteristics (range, dmg, cooldown, etc). Then tweak it from experience until it's in the ballpark. Then you use it solve for whatever. Heat generation is the most reasonable limiting factor to solve for. This is already done haphazardly in small vs. large, Clan vs. IS weapons. The obvious advantage to a dynamic system is that any weapon's parameter could be fiddled with and you get an instant recalc of X (heat in this case). It would also allow as-built calcs. So if a stock laser generates 3 heat, the same elited, quirked and moduled laser might generate 3.4 heat.

Something like this could be combined with other game elements to produce whatever TTK you want.

A big +1.

I am engineer so I know most of the things can be calculated and balanced well in IT. What kind of aspects should be considered? Well.. hardpoints number, shape and size of mechs (front, side), max speed, free tonnage, location of hardpoints! (they count a lot) etc. Put everything into a matrix. All mech class should be their max score. Everything should be "logical" (in the battletech world ofc). I was just surprised when they just re-scaled the size of mechs.. why the weight doesn't follow the volume? It seems to me that lot of balance attempt just like as ad-hoc.

I think there is a problem with matchmaker also. Before December patches and new mechs I had bad and good matches playing with Atlas but all in all I could increase the statistics of Atlas and I was satisfied.

After that I have been falling down with Atlas. It is not really fun to experience lost games with 0-12 result in row ten times, one winner game and loosing again... Somehow it should be investigate what happened.

[LordNothing]

Gas Guzzler, on 07 January 2017 - 08:19 AM, said:

Excuse me while I try to keep from laughing

they by all means give a counter argument.

[Deathlike]

LordNothing, on 07 January 2017 - 02:21 PM, said:

they by all means give a counter argument.

Laservomit truly isn't the meta.

It's PPC+Gauss, with the occasional dakkaboat (CUAC10s+CUAC5s for some KDK-3 builds).

You're stuck in a really old meta-timeline.

If you are dying to laservomit though, I think that's a lot of player error (knowing that your target wields laservomit, you have to play it differently - getting vomited on significantly means you screwed up).

[LordNothing]

Deathlike, on 07 January 2017 - 02:24 PM, said:

Laservomit truly isn't the meta.

It's PPC+Gauss, with the occasional dakkaboat (CUAC10s+CUAC5s for some KDK-3 builds).

You're stuck in a really old meta-timeline.

If you are dying to laservomit though, I think that's a lot of player error (knowing that your target wields laservomit, you have to play it differently - getting vomited on significantly means you screwed up).

i guess i completely overlooked the new god of the battlefield, the ppc. but ppc+gauss is nothing new, and im not seeing a lot of that in fp.

usually by the time you know that your target is laser vomit, you've already been hit by an alpha. roll as you may the damage is still done. install every infotech equipment and module, and you will still get alphad before you have data. also i still see a lot of people in the old meta in fp, a lot more than i run into a t1 running all that gauss and ppc. there really arent that many clan mechs that can afford to carry both. thats why i think laser vomit is still tops. its accessible and everyone can run it on almost everything.

Edited by LordNothing, 07 January 2017 - 02:34 PM.

[Deathlike]

LordNothing, on 07 January 2017 - 02:26 PM, said:

i guess i completely overlooked the new god of the battlefield, the ppc. but ppc+gauss is nothing new.

It wasn't a thing as much until the PPC+ERPPC finally got velocity buffs (of the global variety).

[Vxheous]

LordNothing, on 07 January 2017 - 02:26 PM, said:

i guess i completely overlooked the new god of the battlefield, the ppc. but ppc+gauss is nothing new, and im not seeing a lot of that in fp.

usually by the time you know that your target is laser vomit, you've already been hit by an alpha. roll as you may the damage is still done. install every infotech equipment and module, and you will still get alphad before you have data. also i still see a lot of people in the old meta in fp, a lot more than i run into a t1 running all that gauss and ppc. there really arent that many clan mechs that can afford to carry both. thats why i think laser vomit is still tops. its accessible and everyone can run it on almost everything.

Laser vomit still gets run primarily in FW (or dual ERPPC) due to the attrition nature of the mode and lack of reliance on ballistics. When I drop a Night Gyr in FW, I can burn through all 6 tons of gauss ammo in 1 wave, leaving me with 1 CERPPC to keep going, or to eject. If I bring a laser vomit Timber, I can potentially make it go through 2 full waves giving me a much higher attrition ratio to play with.