37 replies to this topic

[rolly]

So for those of you who are new to Battletech or MWO here is a bit of a Preface to this topic:

There is suppose to be something noble about being a Mechwarrior. You're suppose to be elite pilots and most of the cultures in this Universe embrace a Warrior Code of Code of Honour.

Steiner - Germanic Knights
Draconis Combine - Warrior/Samurai ethic, or DCMS giri
Liao - Warrior Houses
etc.

And yes the Clans... where we have Zellbrigen. The topic of Single player Combat Duels aka "Zellbrigen" has come up. Ie. You call someone out, single combat happens, and no one interferes until its complete and there is a clear victor or one participant violates the rules.

TL:DR: I got tired of the forum yammering about single-combat/duels and would be authorities saying it violates the Code of Conduct and should be reported immediately. So, I asked Support. This is what they had to say about single combat during games. Take it for what you will.

================================

Hello,

Do single player duels violate (the Code of Conduct) in any way IF:

The players are playing within the rules, and meeting the current game modes objectives OR the battle is a foregone conclusion? Ie. 12 vs 1 left

Thanks for your time!

Sincerely,
(rolly)

================================

GM Patience
Jan 3, 15:41 PST

Under the circumstances outlined in this ticket, a call for zellbrigen under that kind of scenario would generally not be an actionable violation of the CoC.

That said, reports are evaluated per-case. If Support services make a determination that the actions taken by a match participant have negatively impacted the experience or winning chances for the Team or its other members, moderation actions may be incurred as a result.

GM Patience
Piranha Games

Edited by rolly, 04 January 2017 - 02:45 PM.

[Bombast]

Wait, what insane lunatic said Zellbrigen violated the CoC?

[1453 R]

Bombast, on 04 January 2017 - 02:57 PM, said:

Wait, what insane lunatic said Zellbrigen violated the CoC?

Lots of people in the last Zell thread said they'd start reporting anyone who called for/accepted a Zellbrigen challenge, mostly because they hate puppies dislike the idea of people playing sub-games that "aren't a part of MWO the way the devs have built it" and want to try and force all single-combat challenges into private lobbies.

They aren't willing to acknowledge that a premeditated private-lobby '1v1 me, bruh' duel is basically just about the complete opposite of a Zellbrigen challenge, and robs the act of any meaning or satisfaction, and that calls for Zellbrigen are astonishingly rare as it is.

Nevertheless, good to have some extra clarification. Thanks.

[Burke IV]

Every match i ever been in where a group of people take themself off to have a duel has " negatively impacted the experience"
Often because somebody will take command and pretend to play for a bit to facilitate the duel. Its a big fu to everybody there not involved in the duel. and people talk abotu honor.

[1453 R]

Burke IV, on 04 January 2017 - 03:24 PM, said:

Every match i ever been in where a group of people take themself off to have a duel has " negatively impacted the experience"
Often because somebody will take command and pretend to play for a bit to facilitate the duel. Its a big fu to everybody there not involved in the duel. and people talk abotu honor.

...did you read the situation laid out in the original post?

The match's conclusion is already foregone; one side has either locked down the objective or has accrued an overwhelming man advantage. The single remaining player on the defeated side, or a player on the victorious side, will call a Zellbrigen challenge from a desire to A.) have a bit of lore with their A BattleTech Game in a way that doesn't break everything, and B.) go out in a blaze of glory that is more than "run d!ck-first into the entire enemy team and die pointlessly."

Yeesh.

[Bombast]

Burke IV, on 04 January 2017 - 03:24 PM, said:

Every match i ever been in where a group of people take themself off to have a duel has " negatively impacted the experience"
Often because somebody will take command and pretend to play for a bit to facilitate the duel. Its a big fu to everybody there not involved in the duel. and people talk abotu honor.

Really? How often does it happen?

I'm in the thousands of matches and I've seen exactly two Zellbrigen/Duel requests. Both of them were aimed at me, I turned down one and accepted another, and in neither case did it seem to have a negative affect on anyone else's game. No one really complained either, or tried to interfere.

I suppose if it was an every match occurrence, and multiple duel requests were being thrown out per match, I could see it being a problem, but is that really the case in an tier, time zone or mode?

[Burke IV]

it used to happen alot more often than it does now to be fair. Iv never seen a request in open chat, but i have seen groups go off into a corner, a couple of people will stand guard and they have their fight. Thats just rude.

Edited by Burke IV, 04 January 2017 - 03:47 PM.

[process]

The case-by-case bit is really the salient point. If you're playing escort and you run off to some remote part of the map to screw around, that is probably actionable. If there's nothing else going on, I don't see an issue with that. Certainly no one should expect to be accommodated by everyone else since it is a public setting that isn't explicitly geared towards dueling.

[1453 R]

Burke IV, on 04 January 2017 - 03:46 PM, said:

it used to happen alot more often than it does now to be fair. Iv never seen a request in open chat, but i have seen groups go off into a corner, a couple of people will stand guard and they have their fight. Thats just rude.

This sounds like an artefact of pre-private lobby days, especially since it's an older issue. Zellbrigen is not "let's hijack a public match to run a private duel because we used to have no other choice", it's specifically a battlefield challenge between two enemy combatants.

nowadays the folks who used to do what you're describing just use private scrimming, and the folks who want legitimate Zellbrigen get Shatner'd on because those old guys riled some feathers. ugh.

[MacClearly]

rolly, on 04 January 2017 - 02:42 PM, said:

So for those of you who are new to Battletech or MWO here is a bit of a Preface to this topic:

There is suppose to be something noble about being a Mechwarrior. You're suppose to be elite pilots and most of the cultures in this Universe embrace a Warrior Code of Code of Honour.

Steiner - Germanic Knights
Draconis Combine - Warrior/Samurai ethic, or DCMS giri
Liao - Warrior Houses
etc.

And yes the Clans... where we have Zellbrigen. The topic of Single player Combat Duels aka "Zellbrigen" has come up. Ie. You call someone out, single combat happens, and no one interferes until its complete and there is a clear victor or one participant violates the rules.

TL:DR: I got tired of the forum yammering about single-combat/duels and would be authorities saying it violates the Code of Conduct and should be reported immediately. So, I asked Support. This is what they had to say about single combat during games. Take it for what you will.

================================

Hello,

Do single player duels violate (the Code of Conduct) in any way IF:

The players are playing within the rules, and meeting the current game modes objectives OR the battle is a foregone conclusion? Ie. 12 vs 1 left

Thanks for your time!

Sincerely,
(rolly)

================================

GM Patience
Jan 3, 15:41 PST

Under the circumstances outlined in this ticket, a call for zellbrigen under that kind of scenario would generally not be an actionable violation of the CoC.

That said, reports are evaluated per-case. If Support services make a determination that the actions taken by a match participant have negatively impacted the experience or winning chances for the Team or its other members, moderation actions may be incurred as a result.

GM Patience
Piranha Games

Yes but since there is no zellwhatever built into the game, ignoring it and shooting the enemy is also not a violation. So anyone getting mad or shooting a teammate for not honouring something that which while it may exist in books, doesn't in the game, would be in the wrong.

[El Bandito]

Never thought duels were in violation of CoC. In fact, it enriches MWO experience, and immersion.

[Sjorpha]

I don't mind if people do it, but I won't hold fire against an enemy mech when I have a good shot at it. If I can take advantage of the duel to assassinate the enemy duelist I will.

So basically it shouldn't be considered a violation to set up a duel, but you can't expect anyone to hold fire against the duelists either.

[Snazzy Dragon]

I won't personally interrupt such an engagement, but I won't accept the challenge within a solo queue match, either. Better left to FW and group queue, and private lobbies. PUGs aren't much fun and they'll do anything to inflate their damage score so they don't look like they cost their team the game at the end of a match.

[Bilbo]

1453 R, on 04 January 2017 - 04:06 PM, said:

This sounds like an artefact of pre-private lobby days, especially since it's an older issue. Zellbrigen is not "let's hijack a public match to run a private duel because we used to have no other choice", it's specifically a battlefield challenge between two enemy combatants.

nowadays the folks who used to do what you're describing just use private scrimming, and the folks who want legitimate Zellbrigen get Shatner'd on because those old guys riled some feathers. ugh.

It is an artifact of pre-private lobby days and should stay there. There are now places for these things to be carried out without interference or worry. If you are the last guy on my team trying to get action with more favorable odds, more power to you because I've already left the match. If you are on the enemy team, I am going to shoot you as soon as I can possibly do so. I'd suggest you not give everyone on the enemy team an idea of where they should converge to make that possible.

[Mystere]

1453 R, on 04 January 2017 - 03:18 PM, said:

Lots of people in the last Zell thread said they'd start reporting anyone who called for/accepted a Zellbrigen challenge ....

And there you go again with your misrepresentations. And that is being too kind.

Out the 50+ people who posted in the thread in question, I only saw 1 person say anything about reporting anyone. I don't know about you, but "one" is nowhere close to "lots". And even if I missed a few, that's still not "lots".

So unless you can point to another more recent thread (i.e. your so-called "last Zell thread"), just stop. Now. People are noticing.

Bombast, on 04 January 2017 - 02:57 PM, said:

Wait, what insane lunatic said Zellbrigen violated the CoC?

See above.

rolly, on 04 January 2017 - 02:42 PM, said:

TL:DR: I got tired of the forum yammering about single-combat/duels and would be authorities saying it violates the Code of Conduct and should be reported immediately. So, I asked Support. This is what they had to say about single combat during games. Take it for what you will.

Based on GM's Patience's response to the specific example you outlined, I have no argument with it. But then again, there's nothing in GM's Patience's reply regarding someone intentionally disrupting the challenge. So don't complain if someone does.

Edited by Mystere, 04 January 2017 - 06:38 PM.

[JediPanther]

I've only had one legit duel of 1 vs 1 in solo play where no one from either side interfered. More often than not it is just a bait tactic to get a mech out of the fight or to try and set up an ambush. It does happen rarely in fw matches and I have a video of one of an hbk 4g vs a locust in which battle the locust died badly as the pilot was not a light pilot and locusts were mostly still considered joke/troll mechs. The hbk died seconds later as the entire unit vaped the winner.

[627]

the problem with duelling someone is the rest of the team who think you are just kill stealing. All want to get the last one so you have to be fast to get him yourself.

I only saw a handful of these requests ingame over the years and only one time it was a clean fight.

If you want to get a 1vs1 in quickplay, you have to be the lucky guy who is left when the counter says 11-11. Otherwise it won't work in solo queue.

[Widowmaker1981]

i dont care if people want to Zell/duel in games - whatever, go for it. I won't deliberately go and interfere. However, i will still be shooting any enemy that appears in my line of sight, without waiting to check if its someone on their way to a duel or not. That extra time might let them get the first shot off if they arent. If its red, i can see it, and i dont have a better target, im shooting it. That simple, if you wanna duel someone, take low ground out of sight to go meet them.

(i mention this because the initial thread where the guy was complaining about people not honoring Zell was caused by me. the OP of that thread was talking at the start of the match (complaining about polar, largely) and challenged someone, which was accepted. I then walked with the team in my 4xERPPC Warhawk and a bit later some Timberwolf appeared over the horizon a kilometer away. I shot it to bits, and then realised afterwards it was the guy wanting to duel. His fault, imo. Its on you to stay out of sight if you dont wanna get shot.)

[Random Carnage]

The OP's question was loaded given a narrow band of eligible conditions apparently weighted toward getting official approval of their position. If you 1v1 in PuG land, and you're red, expect to get shot. MWO is not a role playing game.

[1453 R]

Mystere, on 04 January 2017 - 06:37 PM, said:

And there you go again with your misrepresentations. And that is being too kind.

Out the 50+ people who posted in the thread in question, I only saw 1 person say anything about reporting anyone. I don't know about you, but "one" is nowhere close to "lots". And even if I missed a few, that's still not "lots".

So unless you can point to another more recent thread (i.e. your so-called "last Zell thread"), just stop. Now. People are noticing.




See above.




Based on GM's Patience's response to the specific example you outlined, I have no argument with it. But then again, there's nothing in GM's Patience's reply regarding someone intentionally disrupting the challenge. So don't complain if someone does.

Clearly there was enough of a concern to prompt someone to ask a GM for a ruling. I can only imagine it came out of the violent disdain shown for Zellbrigen in the given thread, given that it's the only Zell discussion I'm aware of in the last whenever.

Now I get that you're trying to hound me off the forums, but really, Mystere. I get too bored at work for that kind of thing to be likely. Sorry, mang - you're just going to have to find a way to tolerate living in a world where people have opinions and ideas that are both different than and contrary to your own.