29 replies to this topic

[SuperFunkTron]

Players don't switch because there nothing to give them a reason to switch. Think of all the new players who know little to none about battletech history and lore. At most, the info they have about the IS vs Clan tech difference is that IS can be upgraded, Clan is expensive and can't be customized as much. Because IS has simpler weapon mechanics, it is less overwhelming to learn the game while using IS mechs and thus the easy choice. The idea that they can be "improved" is also a psychological factor in picking this side.

In order to change this, some sort of emotional investment must be created to make one side more desirable to someone who is just stepping into the Battletech universe. That can easily be accomplished by the addition of more information regarding the the 2 sides at war, their reasons for war, and how each group on both sides of the tech divide have been evolving to fight that war. For those who already have played previous Mechwarrior games, we've got plenty of history and experience and know what we like. Anyone who walks in now is provided with mechs arbitrarily divided into two tech groups and just know that they don't like each other. It's cold, binary, and ultimately holds little bearing beyond learning and improving their play.

A strong solution, which has also been brought up in a recent thread discussing how game immersion can be improved, suggested the addition of lore history and info about each of the mechs and houses to give a sense of purpose to these currently meaningless banners. You can find some of the posts here https://mwomercs.com...93#entry5549493

In MWO, we are just dropped into a mech lab, given a chance to build/select a fighting robot, and then dropped with the simple order to kill, capture, or defend. There is no intro video telling you that there is a conflict, there is little information (only in FW banner info) as to what motivates these groups... nothing to really attach new players to any faction beyond what logo they like the bests and maybe eventually, what mechs they come to enjoy after they finally knock out 500-800 games.

To really make an impact on FW population, immersion through simply giving some in game context to what the hell is going on is the simplest and most effective step. It'd be fine if they even strip away lore for the progression of the invasion, so that we could literally create the story as the clans push into the IS, essentially allowing a season history to be created as the planets change hands. I could detail a much more interesting idea but this isn't the forum topic for it.

In short, give context to the conflict so new players can decide what they are fighting for.

[exiledangel]

well see most of the players in clans are only there because IS pugs are easy kills because because most pugs are new the game with affordable equipment. and the more the clans win the more IS population goes clan. been seeing a lot of clan trails lately so even the patatos are going clan.

I wish PGI would post how many tier 1 and 2 pilots are on both side.

[Davers]

For years now we've been told the story about all these new pilots who join, buy IS mechs, and immediately drop in FP. I just don't buy it anymore. There are enough terrible players who make terrible builds who have been here for years that we don't have to pretend there is this constant influx of new players to blame.

[The Basilisk]

Spheroid, on 07 January 2017 - 01:14 PM, said:

I am not here to talk about tonnage, quirks or what is meta. What I want to know is why solo CW players are not migrating sides overtime and what actions can be taken to equalize the potato ratio. How many drops would be necessary to form a representative sample?

Merc contracts only last seven days and this **** train has been going on much longer than that.

Nobody plays loyalist anymore so we can discount that. Call to arms can be answered by an unaffiliated pug and he can freely choose the tech base.

What explains the player distribution? Lack of knowledge of trial mechs? New crops of potato trying I.S. only and retiring from the gamemode without switching sides?

I see zero equalization going on and want to discuss the demographic, economic or psychological reasons why this is happening. I know why the premades are Clan, I just want to know why for any given drop the probably of facing said groups is not becoming diluted through pug migration. The probability of facing large or full premades seems disproportionately high each and every cycle.

Again and again and again and again....

How dare you assuming anyone would want to play the tryhard style you are playing ?

The frequency you are encountering "potatoe pugs" should tell you they are the majority and the highly coordinated premades are the problem.

Further if you think about it realisticaly the ammount of time you would need as FREE TO PLAY casual to grind out a dropdeck of clan mechs is far above half a year since you will do around 50 - 80k Cbills per match....maybe 120k on a good day in a conquest.
In FP the time/ money ratio is far worse when playing with the IS puggernoughts.

The answer is ppl finaly get matches in FP and desperately waiting for clan roflstompers to finaly get bored and get lost. Problem is they can't unselect the constant tryhard molestations you have to suffer in fp.

Davers, on 09 January 2017 - 12:07 PM, said:

For years now we've been told the story about all these new pilots who join, buy IS mechs, and immediately drop in FP. I just don't buy it anymore. There are enough terrible players who make terrible builds who have been here for years that we don't have to pretend there is this constant influx of new players to blame.

This over and over again.

Simple fact: "People just want to play and rather play 100 matches they play their style and loose than bend over backwards and dance the minmaxers tryhard tune."

Edited by The Basilisk, 09 January 2017 - 12:29 PM.

[MischiefSC]

The Basilisk, on 09 January 2017 - 12:25 PM, said:

Again and again and again and again....

How dare you assuming anyone would want to play the tryhard style you are playing ?

The frequency you are encountering "potatoe pugs" should tell you they are the majority and the highly coordinated premades are the problem.

Further if you think about it realisticaly the ammount of time you would need as FREE TO PLAY casual to grind out a dropdeck of clan mechs is far above half a year since you will do around 50 - 80k Cbills per match....maybe 120k on a good day in a conquest.
In FP the time/ money ratio is far worse when playing with the IS puggernoughts.

The answer is ppl finaly get matches in FP and desperately waiting for clan roflstompers to finaly get bored and get lost. Problem is they can't unselect the constant tryhard molestations you have to suffer in fp.



This over and over again.

Simple fact: "People just want to play and rather play 100 matches they play their style and loose than bend over backwards and dance the minmaxers tryhard tune."

I put a Clan drop deck together in less than 3 weeks, playing 2-4 hours a day, 4 or 5 days a week.

I do love how you denigrate anyone trying to win, like it's some evil thing they're doing to everyone else. If someone wants to derp, as in absolutely doesn't care if they win or lose and has no interest in trying to get better at playing the game then absolutely they need to go to QP. I'd love to have the maps/modes of FW available in QP so all the content is available to everyone -

however FW actually has value overall to factions for winning/losing, both in tagging planets and the whole 'map' thing. There is no conceivable way that the game is going to get re-designed for the principle of 'don't worry about trying to play better or win, just do whatever you want' in a PvP game. The assumption is, and logically so, that everyone wants to win and learn to play better than they're playing now.

If your style involves constantly losing then your style is bad and you can either A) accept that your approach to playing the game is a failure or B ) change to improve.

The mentality that everyone should get to 'win' even when they're not doing as well or putting in the same effort is pretty absurd. Go play a SP game, turn godmode on and derp away, then get your participation medal at the end. This is a team based PvP game. You being terrible at it hurts everyone who gets saddled by playing with you. Saying 'don't be terrible' makes someone a 'minmaxing tryhard' (again, it's incredibly telling that you consider trying hard a pejorative. There's so much sad about that I don't even know where to begin) implies so much fear of failure and insecurity I don't think you can make a game around that.

PvP games involve challenges. The point of challenges is to better yourself to overcome them. Your approach is to nerf challenges until people can win no matter how bad they are. That's not a game, that's the foundation of a life of dissatisfaction and failure.

[f00lish1]

Spheroid, on 07 January 2017 - 01:14 PM, said:

Nobody plays loyalist anymore so we can discount that. Call to arms can be answered by an unaffiliated pug and he can freely choose the tech base.

I hope you noticed the number of loyalists who responded to this post.

[Moebius Pi]

Ya know, I just feel the need for a rant. Too much dodging of some of the fundamental problems going on.

Any other reasonable game with "*end game content" like this would have it tied into a ranked queue to keep matches fair and really hard... as in, you're matched with folks on your level (sometimes a bit higher for promotionals) with an algorithm that puts you with folks on lose streaks when you're on win streaks to equalize matches (League does that, so do many, many others).

Competitive units ***** about a lack of premades to tangle with in CW, then another competitive unit ******* "it's for tryhards, END GAME ********" to justify keeping that as is. There -are- ways to extend this to groups by the way, to keep the matchups more interesting, but it really seems like PGI couldn't give a **** and making it open like it is sure as **** doesn't work (in any game for that matter) that is PVP. There's a reason for competitive matchmakers, and much of it ties into a game's long term pvp health. Expecting the community to manage competition in a proper manner is outright derp-tarded.

Challenges should be there; pitting a top group against the very bottom isn't a challenge at all. Want to get better? You tangle with folks on your level or a bit, improve, tangle with folks on the next level up, improve, and go from there. You don't put the amateur league boxing kid against Tyson with a grossly outmatched weight division and expect competition, let alone that kid to improve. He's just going to get hospitalized and likely stop boxing entirely after the level of brain damage he got. Kinda reminiscent of what it's like playing FP for a lot of folks, eh? Brain damage inducing.

There's a reason games with ranked queues and competitive ladders work the way they do. Not having one here then expecting CW to be a competitive mode is a farce. It's not competitive at all for any skilled unit, given the bulk of their matches aren't with folks anywhere near their capability. Some folks want to have their cake and eat it to; it doesn't ******* work when you want to continue to farm pugs, yet have consistently challenging matches. It's one or the other; there's no shortage of players (and units) that are content with the former, but it doesn't mean they should be catered to at the cost of an entire mode and the larger population base. Want it competitive? Get a ******* match maker already.

Again, using League of Legendsas a bit of an example; you don't even get access to ranked until you get quite a few matches under your belt. Really, even once you hit level 30 in that (get some champs, some runes, etc.) odds are Ranked will still be frustrating and challenging if you hop right in before quite a few normal matches as it tries to figure out what starting league you belong in, pitting you against all sorts of different skill levels. While I'm not a big fan of gating players from features and content, CW -needed it- past tense to a partial extent (practicing on the maps wasn't accessible for a lot of folks until they actually played the mode).

I say past tense because right now the population deficit crap like this created makes winnowing the population down problematic in its own right. It's a PGI created problem that some folks capitalized on for season after season without good match making.

It doesn't work as is. It hasn't in -any- season. Bucket tinkering will never impact it. It needed some sort of matchmaker -at the very least- to keep the environment healthy on both ends of the spectrum and keep it competitive for the folks going in for the competition angle (of which it's garbage for as it stands compared to the 3rd party leagues) while retaining the more casual folks to keep the population active and capable of upwards migration towards the competitive angle.

Hard competitive mode isn't "put players who just got their deck together against established competitive groups" as PGI seems to think, and it sure isn't "Comp mode" for top units. It's a failure on both ends. It doesn't allow a good gateway for folks to improve skills, to, you know, play it more competitively, (vs getting carried by much better team mates match after match). It doesn't increase population. It doesn't make the majority of the player base happy. It doesn't keep great competitive matches common for the folks that keep using the term while rarely facing off against other skilled groups. It doesn't do a single, ******* thing that contributes a positive benefit to the game. It's just sheer laziness. Nothing more.

*CW is only an end game due to PGI's overall lack of effort; it's end game because it's expensive to have one deck, let alone 2 or more cobbled together, optimized and ready to run for it and incentivizes mech pack purchases to do so. It's a placation and placemat. Beyond that? It's a train wreck of "what not to do in a competitive FPS environment".

Complaining about too many IS pugs (and to be fair, the side with the most pugs will always lose in this set up, just like Tukk events) won't change a thing; not everyone knows all the ins and outs of optimization, push vs poke/trade decks, the meta, map positioning and a good chunk entering into CW don't even care (and never will) about all that, even if it's downright suicidal in game not to have a good knowledge of it.

They just want to play once they have a workable deck. IS is usually the early gateway because it's (surface) cheaper. Many people with an RP background don't like the Clans (lots don't because, hey, extra powerful antagonists for many lore-grognards). With an matchmaker that issues becomes moot; don't like dirty casuals pissing in your match sandbox? You won't even go up against them let alone drop with them consistently; they won't be in your matchmaking. Done. Enjoy your competition and git gud (because you'll ******* have to without random pugs to rely on for easy earnings).

Those casuals often just want something that is -somewhat- more like a lore conflict, and... you're only getting that in FP as a supported mode (vs player made private queues). It's literally the only place in the game for a bit of pseudo-immersion built into the game, there -is nowhere else-.

Don't expect strangers to streamline everything from purchases to gameplay style to more just to make sure -you- have a better time in an online game if they aren't your direct friends in the game. Many of them (with good reason) won't touch these forums, and won't get access to good info (often not here...) until they're in a unit anyhow. Want a unit? Odds are they're heading to FP to find one too given the poor in game communication hubs. That's a recipe for disaster anywhere, and it's the same mentality that leads to disappointment. People play for their own enjoyment. They're not obligated to give you a ******* and play on your level, you just give praise (and a sigh of relief) -when you do get folks that can- in this game state. Face it, a lot of folks just don't have the resources you or I do coming into this game, and those resources dwindle further when you've got an entire game mode taking a steaming dump on the bulk of the players using it.

It will always be like this, -even if- you introduce a "no trial mech" or, "X amount of matches" clause to gate folks in without some means of making the environment healthy and competitive between opponents. There is nothing in place to change that. Not a single thing. Nada. Finito. Zilch. No Match Maker. There is 0 effort to make it truly competitive. 0 -anything- on that. There is literally -nothing- to so much as encourage, let alone enforce/reinforce a healthy competitive environment in CW/FP/Whatever they name it next with factions meaning **** all. There is no healthy competition in it as is. Don't expect the current format to magically fix itself because of the community given its track record.

Until that changes, which is entirely in PGI's lap, expect to keep going in circles until it's 100% down the drain. The community can't fix this mess and whining threats sure as hell won't do anything more than it ever has. Tryhard vs Casual? Meh, who cares. There are competitive leagues for that and group queues, so why play FP? If your casual, why play FP? Really, that's the sum of it; why play FP whatsoever? I really wouldn't keep trumping up the PGI party line on "no matchmaking, end game content and it is supposed to work this way as intended" like some folks do and expect any positive change when it makes a FUBAR game mode; that's just so intentionally blind it boggles the mind.

One of the healthiest fixes to get the ball rolling for a better game mode and player retention, and PGI just refuses. It's one thing to go "LALALA Stay on your island!", it's another to outright ignore successful models for this in the game industry itself on top of it all. That in itself is really, really problematic, and yet you got some groups saying it's how it should be to boot on here. How many threads of this **** needs to keep going on in circles before people clue in?


Well, I took my dump filled with salt for the day in the forums. They're a well over capacity outhouse anyhow according to PGI, so meh, when you gotta go... any ******* will do. Just FYI, I -want- FP to be competitive; I just also want it to be inclusive and -truly- competitive instead of this joke we have now.

[exiledangel]

@ moebius PI

I agree 100% with you

[Jman5]

Spheroid, on 07 January 2017 - 01:14 PM, said:

Nobody plays loyalist anymore so we can discount that. Call to arms can be answered by an unaffiliated pug and he can freely choose the tech base.

Hold up a second here.

If you look at just the top 50 loyalist units for Clan and IS they account for about 20-25% of the total Faction Play matches. For example at the time of writing this, Inner Sphere has a total of 95,559 wins. 23,178 of those wins are just from the top 50 Inner Sphere Loyalist units.

You can't just dismiss Loyalists out of the equation because they represent a large chunk of games played on both sides.


Then you have the pseudo-loyalist units. Merc units that are essentially loyalists. You can spot these units by looking at the IS/Clan kills. 12 of the top 20 Merc units listed are essentially loyalist units. 11 of those 12 have only gone Clan. Interestingly enough the total wins these 11 pseudo-loyalist units account for 13% of Clans total wins.

In total 1/3 of all Clan wins come from the top 50 clan Loyalist units, and 11 pseudo-loyalist merc units.

So in short, you have a very large section of your population that is playing Faction play a lot and not moving around. Either by choice or because they are loyalists.

Edited by Jman5, 09 January 2017 - 07:00 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Most of the Merc (Loyalists) are simply doing Merc because they already hit loyalist Rank 20. So it's either go loyalist again somewhere else, and take that 25% hit or whatever... OR... Take that hit and then max Merc bar first and then do the Loyalist thing.

FP3 was all about the Merc. Now with 4.1 - Once a few units get a lot of pilots to Rank 10 (which can't be far away if they are active as I'm just about Rank 9), they will end up going loyalist somewhere else and climbing that tree given the bucket means it doesn't matter as much for getting matches, where FP3 it did. If you were in anything other than CJF, you'd struggle for matches.

The other reason people Merc, is to be able to chop/change contract whenever they want, sometimes 3-4 times a day. Which does skew the top 20 Merc leaderboard a little as some unit tags (IS or Clan) are actually made up of the same players, depending on what side they are playing that day (or, in some cases, hours).

Edited by justcallme A S H, 09 January 2017 - 07:20 PM.