16 replies to this topic

[Dismembermentor]

So, i'm new to the game and, as i studied more and more the game i see that IS Mechs are very complex towards the game knowledge against the clan that are very easy to take a grasp on and fit a build ideal to your playstyle, my top 3 best IS Assault are: Mauler, Atlas, and Cyclops and while they have their uniques advantages that make them cool, they just can't compete with the value of a clan mech, and this i'm saying in a templay point of view and not a egocentric KDA farm.

Now, what you can do with a kodiak, a marauder iic, and a dire in comparison with the mechs i've listed, makes me want to scream "Buff N mechs... Nerf N mechs" and etc... but i would realy like to see from you guys more experienced players if they have advantages that i just don't see over the clan.

All in all i would like to see a buff not to mechs, but to all the IS tech, like drop a little tonnage for some weapons, or dimish they crit sot space occupation, like putting double HS on a 2 space, i don't think this would hurt much clan.

[Roughneck45]

You have to take advantage of the single projectiles and shorter burn times, so you have to be accurate with as little face time as possible when fighting clan mechs.

Clan XL's are hard to top though.

[Dismembermentor]

Roughneck45, on 10 January 2017 - 06:46 AM, said:

You have to take advantage of the single projectiles and shorter burn times, so you have to be accurate with as little face time as possible when fighting clan mechs.

Clan XL's are hard to top though.

Oh, i forgot the single projectile, also LRM are better in I.S. (of course not a big advantage to a assault mech) but even so i don't know if this would count as big as advantage as the lastest clan design mechs nor their technology, the thing is, this is a goos gameplay tip, but in a assault role i think you should face damage to push isn't that right?

[Stormie]

you are probably right when you say Kodiak and Marauder,
but the Mauler, Stalker, Battlemaster are all significantly better mechs than the remaining Clan assaults.

[Fuerchtenichts]

Have you already referred to MetaMechs?

http://metamechs.com...-lists/is-list/

There you should find some ideas regarding making the best out of your mech hangar. But it mighty only be a question of the next patch to change everything.

[Roughneck45]

Dismembermentor, on 10 January 2017 - 06:50 AM, said:

but in a assault role i think you should face damage to push isn't that right?

Sort of, but don't confuse assaults with tanks from other games.

An assault mech's job in this game is to do as much damage as possible and be lethal to anything standing in front of it. It needs to be able to kill anything smaller than it and compete in the same weight class.

Tanking in this game is really armor sharing. Winning your damage trades and not being shot in the first place is the best defense, but its important to keep an eye on your teammates. Cycle fresh mechs to the front for pushing and protect your damaged teammates. One person tanking focus fire from the enemy team can't do it over and over again, so everyone needs to share that responsibility at different points throughout the match when necessary.

That's why people get salty when half way through there is a 100% assault mech slinging LRMs or sniping.

Edited by Roughneck45, 10 January 2017 - 10:34 AM.

[Natred]

Balancing is all about give and take.

Certain Mechs are just better at different things. Teams are better at different things and have different mindsets. If you find yourself hanging out with people who say clan op then these people are prolly not the pilots you want to learn the game from. This game has huge skill gap between elite and noob. If you get caught somewhere placing blame then your not learning the game appropriately.

Ok now to get that out of the way, as a new player bouncing all over the place trying different Mechs is not advantageous. As a new player your resources c bills, mech skill experience, and modules will be limited. In order to overcome this it is recommended you focus your resources. Instead of dabbling and getting a taste of how every mech is. Assaults being the most expensive class you have to be ultra patient when it comes to your cbills focusing into 3 different variants of a chassis(mech/omnimech)

For example, my first assault I choose was the highlander iic. mind you after mastering 3 varriants of the shadow cat and having a solid income mech that I consistently could do well in.

The highlander iic is a solid frame, often you may find yourself slot limited at 78 because of the variety of weapon slots if you master this mech trying different builds. The hoover jets are decent as well and can help get out of sticky situations and into advantages positions.

Knowledge and experience pal. Dabbling in Mechs is not as good as mastering 3 of them. Saving your gxp for skills and modules stuff is paramount as well. If you do not have radar depreviation then ams is helpful.

[Leone]

Before the Kodiak, the Mauler was the Ballistics Beast to fear. Is Ultra AutoCannons unfortunately suffer as well as the Clan from the Uac nerf. Still a totally awesome mech.

As for the Atlas? I offer this evidence of a push well led. Look at all that damage it takes! Granted, my aim was atrocious, but my team pretty much just followed the atlas and cleaned up whilst everyone shot at me for the first bit, and then they ran from the murder ball.

Nothing can take the beating an atlas can. (I do need to work on twisting more however.)

Never tried the Cyclops yet.

~Leone.

Edited by Leone, 10 January 2017 - 08:53 AM.

[Koniving]

It is true that Clan assaults have a number of advantages. There is also a number of disadvantages, too.

Almost every single build you can run with a Kodiak has a horrendous problem with heat management, this is because Clan weapons are significantly hotter. This is why many default to the Clan UAC/10s, to 'avoid' the heat problems. This leaves you open to frequent jamming issues.

Going beyond Kodiaks, the Dire Wolf has an issue with both velocity and cannot aim sideways (much like an IS King Crab cannot). The Dire Wolf is more of a weapons platform while the Kodiak is a good balance between tanker and weapons.

Marauder IIC is 85 tons. ALL mechs on both sides that are 85 tons are just blatantly superior due to a perfect mix of obtainable velocity to engine weight, tonnage available, weapon hardpoints and tankability. Stalkers ride tankability more than velocity/agility (so much more that with std engines they can outtank even the tanky 100 ton mechs despite not having nearly as much health/armor; this is due to its side torsos removing 60% of all incoming damage once the ST is destroyed.)

Mauler unfortunately is much like a Dire Wolf; it's a weapons platform and while there are some arm-based weapons no one really uses them. All it has going for it is the speed over the Dire Wolf and the brutality of "single shot" ACs.

The Atlas is basically the IS Kodiak, but flawed in that it cannot carry as many weapons. It can, however, rival the Kodiak in tankability.. at the expense of either sacrificing potential speed or a more modest weapon loadout.

Finally, the Cyclops.
This is basically your typical Highlander. I'll let the vid say it for me.

[Ebins]

Dismembermentor, on 10 January 2017 - 06:39 AM, said:

So, i'm new to the game and, as i studied more and more the game i see that IS Mechs are very complex towards the game knowledge against the clan that are very easy to take a grasp on and fit a build ideal to your playstyle, my top 3 best IS Assault are: Mauler, Atlas, and Cyclops and while they have their uniques advantages that make them cool, they just can't compete with the value of a clan mech, and this i'm saying in a templay point of view and not a egocentric KDA farm.

Now, what you can do with a kodiak, a marauder iic, and a dire in comparison with the mechs i've listed, makes me want to scream "Buff N mechs... Nerf N mechs" and etc... but i would realy like to see from you guys more experienced players if they have advantages that i just don't see over the clan.

All in all i would like to see a buff not to mechs, but to all the IS tech, like drop a little tonnage for some weapons, or dimish they crit sot space occupation, like putting double HS on a 2 space, i don't think this would hurt much clan.

I appreciate and respect your posting. As a new player, you are possibly not familiar with Battletech lore. On the whole, Clan mechs are supposed to be superior to IS mechs. The Inner Sphere is coming out of the "dark ages" (sorry for the pun) and currently recovering lost technology, whereas the Clans are the remnants of the old Star League Defense Force that left the Inner Sphere with General Kerensky. They have had hundreds of years to refine their technology.

In Battletech, this is represented by Inner Sphere weapons having shorter range, and heavier weight. It is also represented in the fact that Clan mechs can switch out omnipods (arms, side torsos, head).

However, Inner Sphere mechs do have one advantage over most Clan mechs in that they are free to swap out engines to fit a certain build. They can also switch armor and internal structures where most Clan mechs cannot, unless the mechs are II-C's (like the Highlander, Marauder) or the Kodiak.

Also, while Inner Sphere weapons have a shorter range, the duration for beam weapons is a lot less and Inner Sphere long range missiles fire in clusters, as opposed to Clan systems which fire in streams.

Now I will admit, I am a clanner at heart. I have not piloted an Inner Sphere assault, but do play some II-C's. I love the Marauder, the Highlander is a solid mech, and the Kodiak is still a decent mech even after all the nerfs. So to a point, I have been able to enjoy something of Inner Sphere customization. It is true that you cannot switch around omnipods, but you should build the mech according to its strength.

This is why there is now an allowed weight difference between the two sides in Faction Play. That also harkens back to Battletech lore where the required ratio for parity of IS VS Clan mechs on the battlefield was around 2.5/1. It is like Vietnam War Tech going up against today's modern army. It is just the way things are.

This is also reflected in the price of mech chassis. A King Crab (100 tons) costs 10 million c-bills whereas a Dire Wolf (100 tons) costs over 17 million c-bills. Again, that is like putting a Dodge sports car up against a Ferrari. Right now to master a mech, the Inner Sphere pilot will need to spend a bit over 30 million c-bills (needing three chassis to do so) but for the clan pilot, it will cost 51 million+ c-bills. That is quite the difference. I do not know how it will be when the new skill trees come into effect, but that is how it is right now. As a new player, you probably understand how hard of a hit that is to one's wallet. Simply put, you get what you pay for.

Near the end of the Clan invasion, Inner Sphere scientists started to catch up with Clan tech. The Draconis Combine and Federated Commonwealth came up with their own version of omni-mechs (such as the Avatar and Firestarter) and created strong combat systems. Weapons such as the heavy gaus, heavy lasers and rotary autocannons began to even the playing field. As well, new technologies such as the C3 computer allowed better targeting and sharing of information. MWO's timeline is not there yet, so you are seeing a greater tech difference. It is my hope (even as a Clanner) that they will eventually expand the timeline to include these weapon systems. The introduction of the Bushwacker (whose success was based upon the capture of Clan mechs like the Mad Dog) gives me hope that this will eventually happen.

The real question is this: why are you on the Dark Side? Come over the Light and embrace Kerensky's vision! We in the Clans would be happy to show you the error of your ways. It is not too late for you yet!

Edited by Ebins, 10 January 2017 - 09:02 AM.

[KillerSquirrel]

just play clan mechs its easy mode

[Koniving]

Technically if you wanna go the lore route, I might have a few corrections..

Spoiler

It sounds like you've only done basic play if that. "Locked" or "fixed" equipment on Omnimechs are basically "standard" equipment on any Battlemech -- meaning it would take days to weeks or even a month to complete the changes. Meanwhile Omnipods" which are literally just modular insertable-and-removeable pieces of equipment designed to fit that 'Mech and similar ones could be changed out in minutes to a couple of hours in really harsh conditions. As such, "why would you waste so much time" changing something that wasn't modular? This is why they do not change engines and the like. It also has the other issue that the omnipods are suited for the 'Mech specifically and as such if you change the core of the 'Mech such as the engine, you change the output, and thus change the power draw available and numerous other factors... basically rendering all Omnipod equipment worthless.

(I've captured a Dire Wolf in a campaign and the stuff I had to do to maintain it by the rulebooks were quite challenging... eventually it became an amalgam of IS and Clan tech that was falling apart at the seams right up until it was destroyed. Very early on it lost its Omnimech status and became a Battlemech, which made maintaining it quite difficult as all the omnipods took negative design quirks as a result of it.)

Clan tech superiority is not reflected in its modular nature of Omnimechs as the Clans have far more Battlemechs (they just weren't in the initial waves). Instead it is reflected in the fact that almost all equipment are more efficiently built, better advances (and better access to) endo steel and various ferro-metals makes many of their weapons not only lighter but also 'not as big'. This comes at the cost of excess heat in many of the laser weapons, but their superior output in damage and range often makes up for this fact. Their "XL" survivability comes from the fact that engines cease to function with 3 crits, but the size of the engines are more compact, keeping it from having 3 crits in the ST. Technically in Battletech they are NOT more survivable as through-armor crits can basically ruin their day.

Clans have seen lots of battle from their strict rules regarding combat, so not only are their forces honed through combat with about 30% of them being genetically engineered clones, but any of them on the field will never be without experience. Meanwhile the IS forces in terms of the actual people, everyone has seen combat but not many have fought in those battles as you have everything from angry farmers taking up arms to rich nobles buying leadership positions; so many greens and few with skills, as those with skills tend to be wheeled back to make nobles feel safe. This is why there's also the initial skill differential in Battletech for default pilots.

[Ebins]

Good information, but when I wrote about weapon and mech systems, I was not talking about table top, I was discussing how the changes are reflected in MWO (their attempt to reflect the board game rules).

As well, you are absolutely correct concerning the different fighting styles. Unfortunately, that is not relevant in MWO as I have yet to see Clan players follow the methodology.

You might also want to include the incredibly strict and hard core training regime the clans have in place. Not only are Trues genetically bred, from the get go in sibkos they are constantly honed for combat, and the training is so intense that only a small fraction ever graduates to the status of Mechwarrior. Those who are Freeborn must test their skills against the Trues, so the very few of those who make it out of training are also superior. By contrast, Inner Sphere pilots spend a few years at an academy and then are thrust into battle.

As a former martial artist (before being injured), I am well aware of the differences between one who is trained to fight and one who is a brawler. There really is no comparison.

Thus, combine Clan training with Clan technology, and it is not hard to see why the Clans put forth a superior fighting force. Yet as I also mentioned in my post, the Inner Sphere caught on relatively fast and in the end, it was the Inner Sphere who wiped out Clan Smoke Jaguar - the first time any non-Clan group ever did that.

I am sorry that my posting above did not make that plain, although that was my attempt.

Koniving, on 10 January 2017 - 09:24 AM, said:

Technically if you wanna go the lore route, I might have a few corrections..

[Koniving]

Ebins, on 10 January 2017 - 09:41 AM, said:

Good information, but when I wrote about weapon and mech systems, I was not talking about table top, I was discussing how the changes are reflected in MWO (their attempt to reflect the board game rules).

I only went as far as the first four paragraphs and saw "Lore" and "In Battletech". I did try to capture the training thing or at least the 'experience'.

Spoiler

Speaking of differences in fighting style, I think PGI missed an opportunity to make both sides distinct with LRM balancing. Depending on which version of the lore we look at, the IS has the 180m minimum accuracy range because the IS always launches missiles in a ballistic angle (upward) to get more range and to use them as artillery. The clans use LRMs as long range SRMs, firing them directly at the target. With that original bit of lore, the Clans don't fire indirectly or use their LRMs as artillery because such tactics are cowardly and against their core values.
Meanwhile... the 'newer lore' states that IS missiles are armed at 180m by default and to hit something closer the pilot must set the range before firing (and hope the target doesn't just Red October it (the torpedo just before this one) and close the range before it arms) as the reasoning for the minimum accuracy range, but have the option to set the missiles (must be done before deploying) to have the missiles hotloaded as in immediately armed at the risk of them blowing up if shot. Meanwhile, Clans are "always hotloaded" and thus if the launcher is hit, they go boom.
For obvious reasons the newer lore is stupid -- why wouldn't you always shoot the missile launchers when facing Clanners? Break the launcher + have their missiles all explode in their face!
Anyway, the original lore which fits the two sides and their differences very well (IS being more shifty and tactical meanwhile the Clanners being more "Mine, mine, mine!" in their aggressive frontal assaults and announcing their invasions AND their composition AND their intended targets and battlegrounds), leaving the IS to use tactics such as spotters and LRM-and-Mech-Mortar-artillery to soften enemy forces... while the Clans use their LRMs to pepper enemies during their frontal rushes (since they would be unable to use their LRMs indirectly).

But that's just a Battletech nut whom enjoys doing things like starting fires to shroud the positions of my forces and to weaken enemy laser fire, having troops camp out in buildings or placing Urbanmechs in ditches with the Hull Down position for ambushes, or using a single 100 ton tank to kill 6 mechs before going down when surrounded...

Spoiler so as to not to hijack the thread.

Edited by Koniving, 10 January 2017 - 10:11 AM.

[Ebins]

Good stuff! I would use the spoiler button as well, but in all honesty, I do not know how! lol I am still learning the forums. And yes, when I put up "Battletech," was I debating on using "MWO" instead. I guess I chose wrongly. Very nice to meet another Battletech nut!

[Dismembermentor]

Ebins, on 10 January 2017 - 08:59 AM, said:

I appreciate and respect your posting. As a new player, you are possibly not familiar with Battletech lore. On the whole, Clan mechs are supposed to be superior to IS mechs. The Inner Sphere is coming out of the "dark ages" (sorry for the pun) and currently recovering lost technology, whereas the Clans are the remnants of the old Star League Defense Force that left the Inner Sphere with General Kerensky. They have had hundreds of years to refine their technology.

In Battletech, this is represented by Inner Sphere weapons having shorter range, and heavier weight. It is also represented in the fact that Clan mechs can switch out omnipods (arms, side torsos, head).

However, Inner Sphere mechs do have one advantage over most Clan mechs in that they are free to swap out engines to fit a certain build. They can also switch armor and internal structures where most Clan mechs cannot, unless the mechs are II-C's (like the Highlander, Marauder) or the Kodiak.

Also, while Inner Sphere weapons have a shorter range, the duration for beam weapons is a lot less and Inner Sphere long range missiles fire in clusters, as opposed to Clan systems which fire in streams.

Now I will admit, I am a clanner at heart. I have not piloted an Inner Sphere assault, but do play some II-C's. I love the Marauder, the Highlander is a solid mech, and the Kodiak is still a decent mech even after all the nerfs. So to a point, I have been able to enjoy something of Inner Sphere customization. It is true that you cannot switch around omnipods, but you should build the mech according to its strength.

This is why there is now an allowed weight difference between the two sides in Faction Play. That also harkens back to Battletech lore where the required ratio for parity of IS VS Clan mechs on the battlefield was around 2.5/1. It is like Vietnam War Tech going up against today's modern army. It is just the way things are.

This is also reflected in the price of mech chassis. A King Crab (100 tons) costs 10 million c-bills whereas a Dire Wolf (100 tons) costs over 17 million c-bills. Again, that is like putting a Dodge sports car up against a Ferrari. Right now to master a mech, the Inner Sphere pilot will need to spend a bit over 30 million c-bills (needing three chassis to do so) but for the clan pilot, it will cost 51 million+ c-bills. That is quite the difference. I do not know how it will be when the new skill trees come into effect, but that is how it is right now. As a new player, you probably understand how hard of a hit that is to one's wallet. Simply put, you get what you pay for.

Near the end of the Clan invasion, Inner Sphere scientists started to catch up with Clan tech. The Draconis Combine and Federated Commonwealth came up with their own version of omni-mechs (such as the Avatar and Firestarter) and created strong combat systems. Weapons such as the heavy gaus, heavy lasers and rotary autocannons began to even the playing field. As well, new technologies such as the C3 computer allowed better targeting and sharing of information. MWO's timeline is not there yet, so you are seeing a greater tech difference. It is my hope (even as a Clanner) that they will eventually expand the timeline to include these weapon systems. The introduction of the Bushwacker (whose success was based upon the capture of Clan mechs like the Mad Dog) gives me hope that this will eventually happen.

The real question is this: why are you on the Dark Side? Come over the Light and embrace Kerensky's vision! We in the Clans would be happy to show you the error of your ways. It is not too late for you yet!

Hehehe, thank you for the lore and the time to post it, in fact i'm not familiar with battletech, just played armored core, the only mechwarrior game i played was one of the ps1 games when i was a kid, back then i didn't know the name of the game (english is not my main language) so seeing this game (mwo) give'd me some reminiscences

[Ebins]

Welcome to the game, my friend. Glad to see new blood (to spill??) Feel free to add me as a friend in game. I will be happy to help in any way I can.