39 replies to this topic

[Y E O N N E]

RestosIII, on 13 January 2017 - 12:35 PM, said:

10 tons and 6 crits, just 1 ton and 1 crit more than an UAC/5, with triple the fire rate with a RAC/5. I know I'd load them up in a heartbeat.

Only because you haven't done the appropriate mental work, yet.

If implemented properly, it would be 10 tons and 6 crits to get what would very likely be the same (probably slightly better) DPS as a pair of cUAC/2 which, incidentally, weigh 10 tons and occupy 4 crits.

Now explain to me why this is such a bad thing that I can now match, ton for ton, the output of a 6x cUAC/2 using 3x RAC/5 while spending 6 more crits, total? While having to also manage isXL and isDHS?

RACs implemented the way you are probably picturing them would be stupid.

[Bombast]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 13 January 2017 - 12:24 PM, said:

But you never hear "purists" complain about that do they... nope cause they are the worst kinds of purists around here, the kind that do not know enough to actually be purists.

RestosIII, on 13 January 2017 - 12:26 PM, said:

If you want to heavily lower jam chances but make it last an entire match, I'm game for that.

Ok guys, this thread is getting a bit crazy. Some weird ideas are getting thrown around, and I think we all need to just sit down and relax a bit. Just chill out...

Yeonne Greene, on 13 January 2017 - 12:30 PM, said:

RACs aren't that good, though.

[CK16]

Here let me learn you something

IIC - complete clan redesigns and refit(oddly clans did not address them as IIC, but as thier original name, aka a Marauder IIC is still a Marauder to the clans (till about the Jihad era, they then started to refer to them as IIC.
C - A refit with clan tech only, mainly usually just weapons and minor equipment.

Aka the BLR-C is a Clan Refit, and even then...not used by an IS pilot (Clan warrior pretending to be a bandit/pirate)

Quote

IIC BattleMechs, which are essentially new 'Mech models designed to make use of Clan technology, should not be confused with "C" BattleMechs:

Somewhat similar to the IIC concept, "C"-type BattleMechs are standard 'Mech designs that have been built or upgraded with advanced Clan equipment and components, but are essentially only a variant of their parent design built with better components and not an altogether new design (as opposed to a IIC 'Mech that has been redesigned from the ground up). Frequently, the change is limited to exchanging weapon systems for advanced Clan counterparts, without changing the chassis or other components such as the fusion engine or heat sinks. They are typically built by the Clans at captured Inner Sphere factories to achieve the best possible production result without having to retool the factory for an entirely different 'Mech model

Edited by CK16, 13 January 2017 - 12:49 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

CK16, on 13 January 2017 - 12:44 PM, said:

Here let me learn you something

IIC - complete clan redesigns and refit
C - A refit with clan tech only, mainly usually just weapons and minor equipment.

Aka the BLR-C is a Clan Refit, and even then...not used by an IS pilot (Clan warrior pretending to be a bandit/pirate)

On the other hand, a lot of IS Omnis do get Clan-tech configurations (R-configs) and are used by IS pilots.

Still stuck with IS engines and heat-sinks, tho'.

[Snazzy Dragon]

No, because then you bring up the argument of "if we IS players can use IICs, why can't we put clan tech on our regular mechs?"

Not to mention IICs were secondline clan battlemechs. By the time IS pilots are piloting clan mechs on a semi regular basis we're already really far down the timeline compared to where we are currently.

[Novakaine]

No thanks I'll pilot my great grand pappy's old rust bucket Orion VA.
Until the IS is free of the Clanker plague.
Take that tube tyke ya wanna be's!
**Immersion.**

[Metus regem]

Novakaine, on 13 January 2017 - 01:53 PM, said:

No thanks I'll pilot my great grand pappy's old rust bucket Orion VA.
Until the IS is free of the Clanker plague.
Take that tube tyke ya wanna be's!
**Immersion.**

Kaine,

Remember, the right insult to them is:

"Your mama was a petri dish and your dad was a turkey baster!"

Edited by Metus regem, 13 January 2017 - 02:00 PM.

[Rhent]

Bombast, on 13 January 2017 - 11:54 AM, said:

No. Because of what those folks up there said.

Out of curiosity though, do you have a more complex, nuanced, actually reasoned argument for such a change? Who knows, it may make sense.

We routinely change game mechanics and lore for balance repeatedly and have throughout the history of the game. The IIC Chassis is inherently imbalanced due to the fact that the chassis has a CLAN XL engine with variable equipment. The only limiter on the clan tech size/damage bonus is hard points, thats it. The IIC's are a flawed chassis and should have never been released in the first place in the game to one side.

[RestosIII]

Rhent, on 13 January 2017 - 02:17 PM, said:

We routinely change game mechanics and lore for balance repeatedly and have throughout the history of the game. The IIC Chassis is inherently imbalanced due to the fact that the chassis has a CLAN XL engine with variable equipment. The only limiter on the clan tech size/damage bonus is hard points, thats it. The IIC's are a flawed chassis and should have never been released in the first place in the game to one side.

So no Clan Battlemechs ever. Got it. That wouldn't limit the amount of Clan mechs that PGI could release at all or anything.

[Bombast]

Rhent, on 13 January 2017 - 02:17 PM, said:

We routinely change game mechanics and lore for balance repeatedly and have throughout the history of the game. The IIC Chassis is inherently imbalanced due to the fact that the chassis has a CLAN XL engine with variable equipment. The only limiter on the clan tech size/damage bonus is hard points, thats it. The IIC's are a flawed chassis and should have never been released in the first place in the game to one side.

Do you mean flawed mechanically, or performance wise? And how does this relate to CW balance?

I suppose I should mention that my objections to giving both sides IICs isn't strictly my full position. I'm of the opinion that if the game is going to try to preserve faction 'flavor,' then it must be absolute, and balancing changes (Not necessarily the ones currently being made by PGI) need to be performed to balance the sides. However... since CW is so removed from flavor anyway, I wouldn't be opposed to just saying 'Screw it' and letting everyone pilot everything.

But making IIC's special middle ground chassis doesn't make much sense. Kind of an all or nothing deal.

My apologies if that doesn't make sense. Been up since 2am choking down antihistamines that aren't helping me breath, but are making me a little slow. So I may be even less articulate then usual. Or maybe more articulate since I'm paying more attention to it.

I dunno. I'm using the word articulate, so maybe I'm ok.

[Rhent]

RestosIII, on 13 January 2017 - 02:19 PM, said:

So no Clan Battlemechs ever. Got it. That wouldn't limit the amount of Clan mechs that PGI could release at all or anything.

Same thing applies to Clan Battlemechs as well. PGI never balanced the Clan Battlemech concept, hell they quirk them and without quirks they are already OP. Tonnage for Tonnage if you put players against other players same tonnage and they could pick any mech, they would almost always pick the Clan Battlemech and you know that.

Lets look at the obvious 100 tonner, what would you take KDK-3 or any other 100 toner in the game?

PGI ****** up on the implementation of the Clan Battlemechs and it shows.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

RestosIII, on 13 January 2017 - 02:19 PM, said:

So no Clan Battlemechs ever. Got it. That wouldn't limit the amount of Clan mechs that PGI could release at all or anything.

no... Jihad gets IS up to T3 rule sets, thereby having IS & Clan as balanced as they ever can be. Though like I already mentioned... just remove IS XL engine ST loss & that would do more for Balance then everything else that has been done combined. It is supposedly 3053 which means that Loyalists should be getting options for adding some Clan weapons to their IS mechs by this point as well, but again people are not calling for that either. Heck there was a small but noticeable fraction of Clan mechs being fielded by IS armies by this point... so tying Loyalist Rank into what IS can bring in their drop decks is 100% legitimate & Lore accurate.

Reaving Wars just for fun

[Valdarion Silarius]

Rhent, on 13 January 2017 - 02:17 PM, said:

We routinely change game mechanics and lore for balance repeatedly and have throughout the history of the game. The IIC Chassis is inherently imbalanced due to the fact that the chassis has a CLAN XL engine with variable equipment. The only limiter on the clan tech size/damage bonus is hard points, thats it. The IIC's are a flawed chassis and should have never been released in the first place in the game to one side.

Lol, did I read that right? Most of the clan IIC's are significantly better than their IS counterparts in almost every aspect (take a look at the Jenner IIC for example). A few exceptions would be the Hunchback IIC with it's paper thin armor, but if you are talking about outside of PGIwarrior online you are tragically wrong about the clan IIC's.

As we have already seen with the Marauder IIC out performing it's IS counterpart, expect the same exact thing with the Warhammer IIC and the Rifleman IIC when PGI decides to drop in game. The only real disadvantage I foresee for the clans is the higher weight limiting tonnage for drop decks in FW.

[Rhent]

Arnold The Governator, on 13 January 2017 - 11:06 PM, said:

Lol, did I read that right? Most of the clan IIC's are significantly better than their IS counterparts in almost every aspect (take a look at the Jenner IIC for example). A few exceptions would be the Hunchback IIC with it's paper thin armor, but if you are talking about outside of PGIwarrior online you are tragically wrong about the clan IIC's.

As we have already seen with the Marauder IIC out performing it's IS counterpart, expect the same exact thing with the Warhammer IIC and the Rifleman IIC when PGI decides to drop in game. The only real disadvantage I foresee for the clans is the higher weight limiting tonnage for drop decks in FW.

Reading is Fundamental, reread my text you highlighted.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Bombast, on 13 January 2017 - 12:44 PM, said:

Ok guys, this thread is getting a bit crazy. Some weird ideas are getting thrown around, and I think we all need to just sit down and relax a bit. Just chill out...

Pointing out how UACs are totally broken and do not function like UACs but RACs when it comes to Unjamming which is a MASSIVE BUFF for Clans when someone is trying to talk about "Lore"... is crazy??? Like I said... the worst kind of Purists, the kind who do not even get mad about the things that breaks the game. Do not even get me started on the poptarting ******** that prevents us from having real Jumpjets because that is not how it supposed to work AT ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!! While Jumping you can fire ALL the weapons in ONE component... not all your weapons, so instead of giving us garbage hoverjets, we should have real jumpjets but the weapons fired needs to be restricted. At least 90% of the problems that arise in the game are directly resulted from NOT following the ruleset, but NO ONE ever complains about that. It is only the most irrelevant (and usually incorrect) Lore reasons that are given... like how IS mechs can not be putting Clan weapons on, even though by 3053 it was a VERY COMMON practice. Mercs tried super hard to get Salvage as part of their contracts for explicitly that reason and why the Great Houses denied Salvage Rights in their Merc contracts... it was not until the late 50s is when Mercs started getting Salvage Rights back instead of Salvage Monetary Compensation.

Edited by I_AM_ZUUL, 14 January 2017 - 09:43 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 14 January 2017 - 09:30 AM, said:

Pointing out how UACs are totally broken and do not function like UACs but RACs when it comes to Unjamming which is a MASSIVE BUFF for Clans when someone is trying to talk about "Lore"... is crazy??? Like I said... the worst kind of Purists, the kind who do not even get mad about the things that breaks the game. Do not even get me started on the poptarting ******** that prevents us from having really Jumpjets because that is not how it supposed to work AT ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Crazy? No. Have anything to do with IIC mechs? Also, no.

Rhent, on 14 January 2017 - 02:00 AM, said:

Reading is Fundamental, reread my text you highlighted.

Not technically, a IIC issue... but a Clan Battlemech issue. One that will be further exacerbated by IS Omnis.

[Bombast]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 14 January 2017 - 09:30 AM, said:

Like I said... the worst kind of Purists, the kind who do not even get mad about the things that breaks the game.

The worst kind of purist is the one who clings to the text of the rules and fluff desperately, ignoring any attempt to translate the spirit of the original to a new game system in favor of doggedly demanding the old stuff, no matter how poorly it translates or what kind of negative impact it has on the new game as a whole.

You'll get no arguments from me that the Ultra's in this game are mechanically uninteresting and lack the 'purpose' of the originals. But jamming for the entire match is an insane feature in a single mech arcade game, and no amount of lore jerking changes that.

[Alan Davion]

RestosIII, on 13 January 2017 - 11:50 AM, said:

.... No? They were Clan mechs specifically. That's like saying the Mad Dog should be used by both sides just because in the MW3 intro an Inner Sphere pilot used one.

Don't forget that Wolf's Dragoons, and later Clan Wolf in Exile were building Clan mechs for IS use.

Now that we're finally advancing the timeline, I think it's time to allow a limited number and variety of Clan mechs to be used by the IS in CW/FW.

Example, Victor Steiner-Davion used a Dire Wolf which he got from Wolf's Dragoons starting in early 3051 and all the way through to the end of Jihad.

[Spheroid]

Let me explain something to you. You need some sort of systemic bias in the CW or you will get both star map stagnation and mode stagnation. What people hate is stomps, but "balance" would result in monotony which is almost as bad.

This is a function of the two side tug of war, which ultimately will fail big time. I can reconcile win/loss balance but not with only two sides. Local imbalances in numbers and skill during an attack phase previously allowed specific planets be captured relative the status of the overall Clan vs. I.S. war.

A unified front is a terrible idea, all that was needed was unified attack buckets. Galaxy shaping is higher form of gaming/trolling and doesn't exist anymore. CW is meaningless.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Bombast, on 14 January 2017 - 09:45 AM, said:

The worst kind of purist is the one who clings to the text of the rules and fluff desperately, ignoring any attempt to translate the spirit of the original to a new game system in favor of doggedly demanding the old stuff, no matter how poorly it translates or what kind of negative impact it has on the new game as a whole.

You'll get no arguments from me that the Ultra's in this game are mechanically uninteresting and lack the 'purpose' of the originals. But jamming for the entire match is an insane feature in a single mech arcade game, and no amount of lore jerking changes that.

The entire point... if you had bothered to think about it, was the correlation between saying "IIC are only Clan mechs" but everyone being fine with how buffed the Clans UACs are in relation to the buff the IS gets in comparison or the reason that the poptart meta exists. Both of which are EGREGIOUS violations of the ruleset and directly responsible for the Meta that they inspired as a result... but NO ONE has ever complained about it, or at least not known to complain it correctly. Cause there was a whole lot of complaining during poptart & kodiak meta but not one of them complained about WHY it was happening.

So if people do not want to complain about broken game balance issues... why are they going to cry about IS getting IIC mechs or god forbid being able to kit Clan weapons on their IS mechs especially if you tie the ability ONLY for FW AND to Rank allowing more/higher tier weapons for Loyalists and Mercs getting smaller levels.