58 replies to this topic

[MacClearly]

Radbane, on 13 January 2017 - 11:04 PM, said:

This whole thread is so black and white .. it's either 60-70 tubes of LRM's or none.... really?
LRM's need a buff from a single or dual launcher point of view, but a nerf when you boat them...

Lore mechs with 1-2 launchers should be usable (example the C1 with its 2x15 launchers) should be a respectable piece of hardware on the battlefield. Boating should not...

Personally a C1 with two a-lrm 15's and four medium lasers is probably my best performing lrm mech. Speed, jump capable and tiny profile is why I like it. I can also actually finish the job with it having the four lasers as well, while with a 6x lrm 5 A1 Trollpult I merely spam damage.

[MacClearly]

Pjwned, on 14 January 2017 - 01:37 AM, said:

The primary argument against ECM is that it's a 1.5 ton 2 slot (1 ton 1 slot for Clans) hard counter to potentially dozens of tons of LRM launchers, which is just stupid period, and it invalidates AMS (the proper missile defense system) to a large degree. It also shouldn't be giving mechs some sort of stealth armor BS effect, which is obviously related to LRMs being hard countered, but the reason I bring that up is because if LRMs were not hard countered any longer but ECM still had some sort of stealth armor effect then that would be an acceptable solution (although I would still complain that it's not a good solution).

And even when you do try to counter ECM you have to bend over backwards to do so, such as getting a lock with TAG that takes forever or popping a UAV over the ECM mech (and hoping it doesn't get shot down) or if you NARC the ECM mech then that disables ECM for a little while but only if there isn't any other active ECM in the area since otherwise the NARC is completely negated (LOL); PPCs also temporarily disable ECM but that's hardly even worth considering as an ECM counter honestly, as well as BAP countering ECM but that's more or less worthless for LRM mechs considering how close you have to get for BAP to counter ECM.

Meanwhile ECM is just always on being a jesus box crammed into one of the smallest pieces of equipment in the game and it's just stupid.



What I'm saying is that even when you do TAG a target, the ECM makes the missile lock take considerably longer than usual, particularly when 2 or more active ECM bubbles are in the area of your target.

Have you tried actually getting a missile lock with your LRMs through ECM with just a TAG, especially when there's multiple ECM stacked on your target? Because if not then I suggest you go try it out and then get back to me.



1. It wasn't exactly a huge buff, big LRM launchers still have atrocious missile spread and they remain largely unused except on the biggest of LRM boats which are hardly very popular anyways; it should have been a bigger buff in that regard honestly so yeah I guess I'm saying they should be even better.

2. I'm also saying that LRMs need to be more reliable (in addition to being reasonably effective i.e not ridiculous spread that makes missiles miss frequently just because you have a bigger launcher) so that they're actually worth bringing for boats boats and non-boats.



They can go and equip AMS then, or stay closer to their teammates who do have AMS; this also of course applies to people who don't like the idea of their jesus box being nerfed and the idea of actually needing to equip AMS as the primary missile defense system that it should be.

I think where you start to lose me is when you are speaking in absolutes. Such what you feel should be the primary defense against lrm's being AMS. Seems that besides a physical counter there certainly should be an electronic counter such as ECM or radar dep. While ECM is effective at disrupting locks from distance and increasing lock time in a window, that seems to go well with the whole idea of information warfare and having tech. I think of it along the lines of today's stealth technology. Personally I view this as adding depth and strategy to the game since to negate the effects of ECM, you have to work for it. I don't think it is that far off from a player who is a brawler that has to work his way through cover to get his mech into effective range for his weapons to work.

Also from my experience, anything I have pointed a tag at gets locked. This may be due to my not lurming often enough to run into what you are describing, or different play style I am not sure. You are the first person I have heard mention it and I don't tend to run into battles where there is an overload of ECM, at least not in quick play. I just don't see ECM as being a Jesus box or being so powerful as you feel it is. Especially considering that teams are generally a pretty good mix so someone in the lrm mech should not only have other targets but potentially teammates that use their weapons as a counter or a combination of the tools you mention such as UAV's and Narc's.

In closing I am also saying that there seems to be clear evidence in the dramatic increase in lrm boating. So this leads me to believe that there is a large portion of the people playing this game that feel lrm's are effective despite ECM. ECM is also not that prevelant due to its availability by chassis. Of the 133 mechs I have in this account only 12 have ECM. This includes variants such as all three Artic Cheeta's or Hellbringer's. So really it's closer to six mechs. This is why I don't think that ECM is quite the boogieman you are making it out to be. While it may be making your job tougher, I can't see you replying to me that you can not longer even run lrms because they are completely countered by ECM or that ECM has made lurming impossible. I am almost tier one and I am currently seeing a minimum of two to three lrm boats per side. If ECM was such a Jesus Box certainly there would be evidence anecdotal or otherwise (since we don't have access to those stats), that point to the dramatic decrease of lurm boats due to their loss of efficacy.

[InspectorG]

Radbane, on 13 January 2017 - 11:04 PM, said:

Boating should not...

MWO favors boating in most cases, though.

[InspectorG]

Pjwned, on 13 January 2017 - 10:27 PM, said:

No, you really don't, especially when enemy ECM is stacked up at all which makes getting a target lock take even longer.



Longer lock times due to ECM = more facetanking.



It does a pretty damn good amount considering how much space & tonnage that AMS takes, and I doubt you're taking the possibility of AMS modules into account.



And yet they would be noticeably better if they didn't get ****ed in the *** with target locks because of ECM being unbalanced.

Stacked ECM? You aim the TAG at the mech you want to LRM and a second later, fire. Similar to Streak Boats.

Longer facetime = ECM yeah. but you are totally missing that point of compared to all other direct fire weapons, LRMs have forever facetank time to begin with.
Removing ECM to the degree you fancy wont make LRMs any better.

AMS module means you wasted a module slot for cooldown on a weapon that actually matters, like Dakka.

I dont understand your obsession with removing ECM improve LRMs, its not the main issue. Tertiary at best.

[Aescwulf]

What about lurms on a hunchback. I've been thinking about it it'll make you a more valuable mech because your a medium your basically invisible because most people expect lurms in a heavy or an assault.

[Brain Cancer]

The6thMessenger, on 13 January 2017 - 09:03 PM, said:

However i do feel that LRMs are not that really bad, they need buffs sure, but i do feel that the hate should be directed more to pilots than the weapon itself, cause i just played it not like a potato and i managed to successfully pilot it.

Honestly, LRM skill use really, really means "the pilot knows where to go and how to position", and "builds their robot to allow optimal positioning".

That they could use some stat tweaks (slower reloads, higher damage, better velocity) is aside from that. Decent missile boaters are more in spite of their own weapon rather than because of it.

Bad LRM users are generally horrible pilots and in many cases, terrible at building a robot to begin with. With LRMs, doing it wrong is even more obvious than with nearly anything else.

[Brain Cancer]

Aescwulf, on 14 January 2017 - 10:33 AM, said:

What about lurms on a hunchback. I've been thinking about it it'll make you a more valuable mech because your a medium your basically invisible because most people expect lurms in a heavy or an assault.

The Hunchback doesn't do it badly, actually. -4J or -4SP. Play to it's quirks- a few LRM 10s on the -4J with plenty of ammo >>> stuffing the most tubes on you can and barely getting six shots off all game. Plus the head-TAG option and enough energy hardpoints to pack a few medium lasers.

[Brain Cancer]

Radbane, on 13 January 2017 - 11:04 PM, said:

This whole thread is so black and white .. it's either 60-70 tubes of LRM's or none.... really?
LRM's need a buff from a single or dual launcher point of view, but a nerf when you boat them...

Lore mechs with 1-2 launchers should be usable (example the C1 with its 2x15 launchers) should be a respectable piece of hardware on the battlefield. Boating should not...

I've seen plenty of effective LRM 20-25-30 tube mediums and heavies. Also, boating is plenty lore-worthy given the tech we use.

There are IS assaults that actually, canonically mount LRM 60 like the Salamander. Most people boat lots of smaller launchers because PGI makes bigger ones worse, since spread isn't the same and increases with launcher size. And of course, there's the Bane.

It boats eight Clan LRM 15s. Even taking MWO logic into account and likely downgrading those to 10s, that's still LRM 80 launches.

[The6thMessenger]

TBR-S 4x LRM10A + 3x ML + TAG

Is kind of fun. Do I have to TAG it though? Or can i opt for 4 ML? I like to laser them as i lurm them to death.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Radbane, on 13 January 2017 - 11:04 PM, said:

This whole thread is so black and white .. it's either 60-70 tubes of LRM's or none.... really?
LRM's need a buff from a single or dual launcher point of view, but a nerf when you boat them...

Lore mechs with 1-2 launchers should be usable (example the C1 with its 2x15 launchers) should be a respectable piece of hardware on the battlefield. Boating should not...

I find the best LRM boats are the ones that only use under 45 tubes, so dual LRM20 Mad Dogs, LRM medium mechs and some lights even. Usually those mechs with those few launchers have some good quirks for things like velocity, cooldown, spread, etc.

The mechs that have to boat like LRM 75+ usually aren't too great because they are slower moving, don't have much ammo or don't have much backup weaponry. This leads them to being pretty much the opposite of well rounded, they suffer enough for boating already.

[The6thMessenger]

Dakota1000, on 26 January 2017 - 03:37 PM, said:

I find the best LRM boats are the ones that only use under 45 tubes, so dual LRM20 Mad Dogs, LRM medium mechs and some lights even. Usually those mechs with those few launchers have some good quirks for things like velocity, cooldown, spread, etc.

The mechs that have to boat like LRM 75+ usually aren't too great because they are slower moving, don't have much ammo or don't have much backup weaponry. This leads them to being pretty much the opposite of well rounded, they suffer enough for boating already.

I actually find 4x LRM10A TBR much more effective than 4x LRM15A.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

The6thMessenger, on 26 January 2017 - 03:48 PM, said:

I actually find 4x LRM10A TBR much more effective than 4x LRM15A.

Fits right in with my findings, 40 tubes seems to be the most optimal setup on Clan side, least compared to trying to boat LRM60.

[Lykaon]

Aescwulf, on 14 January 2017 - 10:33 AM, said:

What about lurms on a hunchback. I've been thinking about it it'll make you a more valuable mech because your a medium your basically invisible because most people expect lurms in a heavy or an assault.

I highly recommend I.S. medium mechs for LRM support platforms. The medium weight class as a lot going for it for this role.

One: "Grey Mech syndrome. As a medium LRM mech you generally fall down on the list of priority targets. Your mech is not in the enemy's face and isn't obviously an immediate threat...but it is.

Two: Mobility. Medium mechs are quick and agile enough to get to where they need to be and keep the sweet spot range,being close enough to land ordnance quickly and far enough out to not get charged under the LRM min. range,

Three: A Medium chassis isn't pulling a heavy or assault chassis off the gun line to float in the second row lobbing missiles. A simple fact of LRMs are you are better off not being shot at while you are doing your shooting. If you are not taking up a heavy or assault slot your team has a higher likelyhood of having more heavay and assault class front line mechs.

Four: Team expectations. Your team has a reasonable expectation that if your mech is covered in 14+ tons of armor that maybe just maybe some of that armor should be shared and not parked in the back.With a medium mech nobody is expecting a 50-55 ton XL engine equiped mech to be out on the front tanking. By using the medium mech you are not going against the grain of common assumption and tactical docterines.

These days when I play an I.S. LRM carrier it's always a medium mech (KTO-GB) and generally my performance is in the top three in match scores if not the top match score. This mech performs so well on the favorable maps (Polar,Alpine,Caustic and Grim plexis) that I sometimes feel guilty. It can even earn at an exceptional rate with hero + premium I pull down 300k average per match in an I.S. medium chassis.

[Lykaon]

Dakota1000, on 26 January 2017 - 03:37 PM, said:

I find the best LRM boats are the ones that only use under 45 tubes, so dual LRM20 Mad Dogs, LRM medium mechs and some lights even. Usually those mechs with those few launchers have some good quirks for things like velocity, cooldown, spread, etc.

The mechs that have to boat like LRM 75+ usually aren't too great because they are slower moving, don't have much ammo or don't have much backup weaponry. This leads them to being pretty much the opposite of well rounded, they suffer enough for boating already.

A mistake so many players make is they assume that mobility isn't a factor for LRM use. They assume the LRMer just needs to be within 1000m and park somewhere and leech locks and spam missiles.

Stalkers with small XL engines and a bazzillion missile reloads are a prime example of this mentality.

Mechs with fewer tubes tend to be heavy or medium chassis (I.S.) some clan lights actually perform very well as missile platforms.

Mobility directly translates into more opertunities to gain solid locks. More solid locks directly translates into more effective damage on target and that is just better performance than sitting in the back behind a rock hurling 9 tons of LRM ammo into buildings and rocks.

[Tier5 Kerensky]

Lykaon, on 26 January 2017 - 04:35 PM, said:

A mistake so many players make is they assume that mobility isn't a factor for LRM use. They assume the LRMer just needs to be within 1000m and park somewhere and leech locks and spam missiles.

Does it matter? If it doesn't work for them, they learn to do better, to improve? If they are incapable to that, then how are LRMs limiting them?


Due to XXXX reasons, they are not able to learn how to field LRMs well, or that they don't just work, but they would be able to learn to use other weapons just fine?

This XXXX has to be some kind of magic to make sense.

[Quandoo]

They are. Dmg ist spread across whole mech while Marauder IIC-D with 2 gauss and 2 large lasers hits one spot. Even with half DMG done, it was more effective then LRM.

For someone who can aim, spreading weapons are super bad. The prove for good matches are dead teams while everyone did 200-300 dmg. Having 500-600 dmg for everyone just means bad aiming.

Edited by Quandoo, 26 January 2017 - 06:55 PM.

[NighthawK1337]

4 LRM20 + Arty Scorch begs to differ.

It's bad. BAAAAD.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

NighthawK1337, on 26 January 2017 - 07:47 PM, said:

4 LRM20 + Arty Scorch begs to differ.

It's bad. BAAAAD.

T5 G O D

[NighthawK1337]

Dakota1000, on 26 January 2017 - 08:01 PM, said:

T5 G O D

Damn, that's evil. So evil it gave me shivers.

[RestosIII]

Dakota1000, on 26 January 2017 - 08:01 PM, said:

T5 G O D

Even as a joke build, that armor placement is making me genuinely angry.