116 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

We never did get that Aggressive Weapons Balancing we were told over three years ago
That kinda disappoints me. We got Pulse Laser Normalization (RIP), which thankfully got reversed, mostly, in the long run.


We haven't gotten engine balance (cXL>>>isXL>STD), and the (presumably) incoming LFE doesn't fix that either
cXL>>LFE>isXL>STD

Notice you'll still never take a STD on a Clam mech? 40% less efficient TrueDubs would only affect Sword and Board (which...admittedly is most of my Clams), but it sure as heck won't make me take a STD on my H2C. Omnis have no choice

Bringing in the LFE doesn't magically fix the STD being bad, nor the isXL being incomparable to the cXL. The LFE also doesn't allow for the same payload as Clam mechs can take, but does allow for a LFE ST AC20 (something the isXL cannot do)



Weapon wise, it's not as diverse a gap. Small lasers being one of the largest gaps: The cERSL being nice, the cSPL being the absolute best short range laser, and the Spheroid Smalls being absolute trash.
Medium lasers are not as bad
ER versions of those lasers will not compare to their Clam versions, and the isSL is already an isERSL, for the most part. They need more significant changes, likely heat and cooldown related, if we're to get new stuff, without that new stuff completely eclipsing the current stuff (small family aside)
isER lasers will probably maintain 2x max range, meaning they could have longer range than their Clam counterparts...which isn't good for their normal lasers.


Large Pulses are the most comparable, as the isLPL can exceed the cLPL performance wise, at mid range. Almost unheard of for Spheroid lasers.
ERLLs are almost identical Dam/tick wise, just with the Clam one having more damage. Neither are taken very often, aside from specific group scenarios.




Should we focus on trying to get current stuff to acceptable levels before potentially shaking everything up with new things?
I want to avoid Legacy Tech™ as much as possible, and keep Power Creep levels to a minimum.
Power Creep happened SO VERY hard in 2016, with new top chassis' at almost every weight class.

[Juodas Varnas]

I have nothing to add to this.

You summed up my thoughts pretty much perfectly, just with a lot less salt and ranting about Quadrupedal mechs.

I really don't see the Tech-advancement as a good thing. It's probably just going to obsolete some older equipment and add even more bloody power-creep.

Edited by Juodas Varnas, 14 January 2017 - 11:49 AM.

[MechaBattler]

I'm excited for LFEs. But they need to buff IS XL and standards. We didn't ask for a nerf to Clan XL. We want IS engines buffed.

[Mcgral18]

MechaBattler, on 14 January 2017 - 11:48 AM, said:

I'm excited for LFEs. But they need to buff IS XL and standards. We didn't ask for a nerf to Clan XL. We want IS engines buffed.

Is a buff to engines Power Creep?

I'm fine being a hypocrite if it is.
I'll increase durability more than Firepower (because people are already taking the XL payload, because the Opportunity Cost is greater with STDs)

[Alan Davion]

Mcgral18, on 14 January 2017 - 11:44 AM, said:

Should we focus on trying to get current stuff to acceptable levels before potentially shaking everything up with new things?
I want to avoid Legacy Tech™ as much as possible, and keep Power Creep levels to a minimum.
Power Creep happened SO VERY hard in 2016, with new top chassis' at almost every weight class.

Keep in mind most Clan weapons can't be properly balanced precisely BECAUSE the IS doesn't have their equivalent weapons.

Clan ER Small/Medium, Clan UAC 2/10/20, Clan LBX 2/5/20, Clan Streak 4/6 all dominate the game because they have nothing to be balanced against.

With the IS getting their remaining weapons to bring both sides to equivalency, and possibly both sides getting into Tech Level 3, both sides would be easier to be balanced against each other with their current weapons.

It's the tech level 3 stuff that will throw balance all the f*** out of whack and will give both us and PGI new balancing nightmares.

Still, our current stuff will be more balanced once the IS gets their remaining weapons.

[Garfuncle]

Yeah, let's just keep the same amount of customization options for the next three years while we hash out the near impossible task of achieving weapon balance in an online multiplayer game. It's not like games such as Dota 2 and TF2 add new gameplay mechanics to keep things fresh while they push out balance patches no, they must be doing it wrong...

Oh wait.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 14 January 2017 - 11:44 AM, said:

We haven't gotten engine balance (cXL>>>isXL>STD), and the (presumably) incoming LFE doesn't fix that either
cXL>>LFE>isXL>STD

Notice you'll still never take a STD on a Clam mech? 40% less efficient TrueDubs would only affect Sword and Board (which...admittedly is most of my Clams), but it sure as heck won't make me take a STD on my H2C. Omnis have no choice

Bringing in the LFE doesn't magically fix the STD being bad, nor the isXL being incomparable to the cXL. The LFE also doesn't allow for the same payload as Clam mechs can take, but does allow for a LFE ST AC20 (something the isXL cannot do)

Yes, it's true, the LFE won't make Clan and IS carbon copies of each other. Each will retain some flavor. I guess as a non comp player, I don't mind that.

For actual perfect faction balance? That sort of can't happen while this game remotely resembles a Mechwarrior/Battletech IP.... which some of us pointed out way back in Closed Beta. Either one could go the MW4/MechAssault approach (PvP friendly) or Go for a more hardcore Lore approach as originally advertised... which was never going to work with Clan Tech added...as also noted repeatedly in closed beta)

Instead they've chosen to spend the last 4.5 years straddling the fence and vaccinating between the two extremes, and here we are, with nobody getting the game they actually want.

Short of a toilet flushing reset on the entire game, not sure what you realistically can expect to change.

[Bud Crue]

Juodas Varnas, on 14 January 2017 - 11:47 AM, said:

I have nothing to add to this.

You summed up my thoughts pretty much perfectly, just with a lot less salt and ranting about Quadrupedal mechs.

I really don't see the Tech-advancement as a good thing. It's probably just going to obsolete some older equipment and add even more bloody power-creep.

Yes, Mcgral's OP is a much more productive, even handed and susinct summation of the feelings I have expressed elsewhere toward the tech/time jump, but without my bitterness and loathing for PGI's conduct. Well said.

[Bishop Steiner]

MechaBattler, on 14 January 2017 - 11:48 AM, said:

I'm excited for LFEs. But they need to buff IS XL and standards. We didn't ask for a nerf to Clan XL. We want IS engines buffed.

Who is we? I'm not for or against....er se...just guess I'm trying to figure out which is Team Edward and which is Team Jacob, so I can figure out the politics involved.

(Or are you using the royal we?)

Bud Crue, on 14 January 2017 - 11:54 AM, said:

Yes, Mcgral's OP is a much more productive, even handed and susinct summation of the feelings I have expressed elsewhere toward the tech/time jump, but without my bitterness and loathing for PGI's conduct. Well said.

Symmetrical Balance is literally impossible for this IP. Asymmetrical is the only way to achieve...and I'm pretty sure figuring that out and balancing it, is beyond PGIs grasp.

(plus hey.... not like any previous MW title was remotely balanced.... why start now?)

[Garfuncle]

You guys do realize online only games thrive on new content? And that total balance is an impossible thing to achieve in these games? MWO simply CANNOT continue without new build options. Releasing mechs with differing hardpoints without new tech is simply not sustainable and will slowly and surely kill the game as people tire of making the same builds on different sets of hitboxes.

Edited by Garfuncle, 14 January 2017 - 11:58 AM.

[Mystere]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 January 2017 - 11:53 AM, said:

Yes, it's true, the LFE won't make Clan and IS carbon copies of each other. Each will retain some flavor. I guess as a non comp player, I don't mind that.

For actual perfect faction balance? That sort of can't happen while this game remotely resembles a Mechwarrior/Battletech IP.... which some of us pointed out way back in Closed Beta. Either one could go the MW4/MechAssault approach (PvP friendly) or Go for a more hardcore Lore approach as originally advertised... which was never going to work with Clan Tech added...as also noted repeatedly in closed beta)

Instead they've chosen to spend the last 4.5 years straddling the fence and vaccinating between the two extremes, and here we are, with nobody getting the game they actually want.

Short of a toilet flushing reset on the entire game, not sure what you realistically can expect to change.

But but but ... PGI and a not-so-insignificant segment of the player base insisted such a thing was possible.

Bishop Steiner, on 14 January 2017 - 11:56 AM, said:

Symmetrical Balance is literally impossible for this IP. Asymmetrical is the only way to achieve...and I'm pretty sure figuring that out and balancing it, is beyond PGIs grasp.

It's also beyond the grasp/comprehension of a large segment of the playerbase, as a careful review of the forums would reveal.

Edited by Mystere, 14 January 2017 - 12:02 PM.

[FupDup]

If PGI's "new" toys for the Inner Sphere are just the IS cheap attempts to knockoff Clan invasion tech while being inferior in every possible category (e.g. ER lasers, SSRMs, LBX, UACs,) while giving the Clans actual completely new tech, that would be pretty unfair.

It would be better if PGI focused on tech for the IS that is legitimately different rather than just the same basic thing with less damage, less range, more tons, and more critslots.

Edited by FupDup, 14 January 2017 - 11:59 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Alan Davion, on 14 January 2017 - 11:51 AM, said:

Keep in mind most Clan weapons can't be properly balanced precisely BECAUSE the IS doesn't have their equivalent weapons.

Clan ER Small/Medium, Clan UAC 2/10/20, Clan LBX 2/5/20, Clan Streak 4/6 all dominate the game because they have nothing to be balanced against.

With the IS getting their remaining weapons to bring both sides to equivalency, and possibly both sides getting into Tech Level 3, both sides would be easier to be balanced against each other with their current weapons.

It's the tech level 3 stuff that will throw balance all the f*** out of whack and will give both us and PGI new balancing nightmares.

Still, our current stuff will be more balanced once the IS gets their remaining weapons.

But even without any of the new tech, compare current to current (of same family)

2 isSmalls are overall outright worse than 1 ML, while they should be MORE effective, because of the range deficiency and extra hardpoint.

6 damage VS 5
4 heat VS 4
0.75s duration VS 0.9s
165M VS 270


For the range and hardpoint difference, you'd expect a much bigger gap, like the cERSL VS cERML of 10 damage VS 7

[Wintersdark]

I'm with McGral, but the reality is this:

PGI can just add new tech and make a massive chunk of the player base happy, then right off balance concerns under "we're working on balancing all this new stuff" which is, on the face of it, a reasonable response.

While I'd have preferred better current balance first, adding tech is giving MANY people what the ask for and buys them time, so it's easy to see why PGI is going that route.

As well, it'll be a lot easier to balance clan vs is when both sides have the same general weapon selection. Everyone has ER lasers, everyone has larger SSRM launchers, and everyone has (equally bad) weapons like lbx5 and uac2.

After all, given the current state after all this time, I feel it's unlikely we're going to see better anytime soon anyways.

[MechaBattler]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 January 2017 - 11:56 AM, said:

Who is we? I'm not for or against....er se...just guess I'm trying to figure out which is Team Edward and which is Team Jacob, so I can figure out the politics involved.

(Or are you using the royal we?)


Symmetrical Balance is literally impossible for this IP. Asymmetrical is the only way to achieve...and I'm pretty sure figuring that out and balancing it, is beyond PGIs grasp.

(plus hey.... not like any previous MW title was remotely balanced.... why start now?)

We as in all the people I've seen in threads asking for IS XL buff. Though I don't agree with making it the same as Clan XL. I think they should increase it's HP by a lot. It would still die faster. But better than what we have.

Just because it hasn't happened. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try to balance.

Mcgral18, on 14 January 2017 - 11:51 AM, said:

Is a buff to engines Power Creep?

I'm fine being a hypocrite if it is.
I'll increase durability more than Firepower (because people are already taking the XL payload, because the Opportunity Cost is greater with STDs)

Yeah, it kinda is. But since the Clans are the higher end of the firepower totem pole. I find it hard to care.

Edited by MechaBattler, 14 January 2017 - 12:03 PM.

[Bud Crue]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 January 2017 - 11:56 AM, said:

Symmetrical Balance is literally impossible for this IP. Asymmetrical is the only way to achieve...and I'm pretty sure figuring that out and balancing it, is beyond PGIs grasp.

I'm not even looking for balance per se, what I am looking for i for PGI to pick a goal, expound on that goal, and then FOLLOW THROUGH with that goal.

I keep harping on Paul's stated goals for balance from last year, (ever mech down to the variant level being of equivalent value, within their roles) and seemingly everything that has occured since then seems to be the opposite in direction. Specifically, most mechs have the same damn role and they are most certainly not equal in that sole role (participants in a murder ball or firing line).

When we get "different but equivalent roles for each mech down to the variant level", even a remote semblance of balance would be great. Instead that goal is flushed (as I supposed we all knew it would be) in view of this latest goal of seeming never ending power creep. Can't see what could go wrong. Sigh. I only hope that this goal is as short lived as the last one.

[Monkey Lover]

No stop trying to balance. Start using battle values.


Using a bad mech with bad weapons should allow the team to bring better mechs with better weapons.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 14 January 2017 - 12:05 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Garfuncle, on 14 January 2017 - 11:58 AM, said:

You guys do realize online only games thrive on new content? And that total balance is an impossible thing to achieve in these games? MWO simply CANNOT continue without new build options. Releasing mechs with differing hardpoints without new tech is simply not sustainable and will slowly and surely kill the game as people tire of making the same builds on different sets of hitboxes.

This isn't wrong either, mind you.

[FupDup]

Monkey Lover, on 14 January 2017 - 12:04 PM, said:

No stop trying to balance. Start using battle values.

Using a bad mech with bad weapons should allow the team to bring better mechs with better weapons.

BaddieValue was exploited hard in TT and it would be in MWO as well.

It also doesn't account for things like how some weapons are better on some mechs than others. A Gauss Rifle mounted on an Atlas is inferior to a Gauss Rifle mounted on a Jagermech, for example. Do we have to have weapon BV vary by chassis or even variant? It's gonna get convoluted real fast.

[cazidin]

My biggest issue is with the LFE. It's still worse than the C-XL engine and doesn't really solve the problem. Just let IS XL survive ST loss with similar penalties and be done.