116 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

Alan Davion, on 16 January 2017 - 06:43 AM, said:

Umm... Clan Endo, Ferro and XL ARE SUPERIOR than their IS counterparts.

Clan endo = 7 slots, and 50% weight savings while IS endo = 14 slots, though I don't know exactly what the weight savings is, though I know it's not going to be 50%

Clan ferro = 7 slots, and probably 50% weight savings, while IS ferro again = 14 slots and again not sure what the weight savings is, but again not going to be 50%.

Clan XL = 2 slots per side torso, preventing mech destruction upon side torso loss, IS XL = 3 slots per side torso, meaning you lose a side torso and you f***ing die.

Can someone give me the exact weight saving percentages of Clan vs IS Endo and Ferro?

Normal structure =.1 per ton
Endo structure=.05 per ton
Or, 5 tons saving on a 100 ton robot, and linear

Armour is 32 per ton
I don't have the Upgrades.xml in front of me, but it's something akin to 36.something (32*1.12) for isFF and 32(1.2) for Clam Ferro
HFF would be 32(1.24)
Barely better than Clam Ferro for literally three times the cost

[Van Tuz]

Mcgral18, on 16 January 2017 - 06:16 AM, said:

Stock is terrible for a variety of reasons
Never suggest stock for a serious discussion

You've performed perfectly average matches with a basic mech, impressive
Mediocrity doesn't determine balance, and those are very easy to balance
I'd need a notepad to balance, however

My info comes from Sarna and the upgrades.xml
You never get a higher cap with FF, only lighter armour
Hardened, iirc, is what does that

As i said, it's in the game by default so it's not my problem. Ask devs to mark them as "terrible loadout" or something.

"Perfectly average" huh? Well my "perfectly average" performance on King Crab with double AC/10 as primary weapons is around 250 damage per match. 400-500 on a very successful one. That's an assault mech with quite a lot more armor i should note. So if the same pilot can take a more fragile mech with similar weapons (that are balanced 1 to 1, right?) and perform 1.5 times better... maybe it's not the pilot.

After cross-referencing with Battletech tech manual i admit my mistake. It's kinda confusing to read "The total number of armor points provided is multiplied by 1.24." about "heavy" armor to find out that every point of protection costs less weight than "light" armor. Then my only hope is hardened armor. Or a complete rework of armor system to allow making "spearhead" mechs.

[Mcgral18]

Van Tuz, on 16 January 2017 - 07:00 AM, said:

As i said, it's in the game by default so it's not my problem. Ask devs to mark them as "terrible loadout" or something.

"Perfectly average" huh? Well my "perfectly average" performance on King Crab with double AC/10 as primary weapons is around 250 damage per match. 400-500 on a very successful one. That's an assault mech with quite a lot more armor i should note. So if the same pilot can take a more fragile mech with similar weapons (that are balanced 1 to 1, right?) and perform 1.5 times better... maybe it's not the pilot.

After cross-referencing with Battletech tech manual i admit my mistake. It's kinda confusing to read "The total number of armor points provided is multiplied by 1.24." about "heavy" armor to find out that every point of protection costs less weight than "light" armor. Then my only hope is hardened armor. Or a complete rework of armor system to allow making "spearhead" mechs.

Seeing as the KCrab is a weak mech overall, I'd wager it's practically more fragile than the Hunch, who win on poking and damage avoidance, as well as shield arms (which now cover the shoulder, an important thing)


Krab avg dam is 480
Hunch 4G is 501
H2C is almost 550

It is the superior robot, for multiple reasons, and the results show that.
Your results are in line with my average

It would probably help if you didn't use AC10s. They're very mediocre weapons. The UAC10s are above average. At least they were before the +3 seconds to jam. Haven't used them all that much since. Gauss is better in most scenarios. Both the KCrab and H2C can use them well.


Buffing the IS weaponry to not be inferior is a solid step, and the AC10 has always held that mediocre title. Up-ed velocity would help actually use its range.

[Alan Davion]

Mcgral18, on 16 January 2017 - 06:57 AM, said:

Normal structure =.1 per ton
Endo structure=.05 per ton
Or, 5 tons saving on a 100 ton robot, and linear

Armour is 32 per ton
I don't have the Upgrades.xml in front of me, but it's something akin to 36.something (32*1.12) for isFF and 32(1.2) for Clam Ferro
HFF would be 32(1.24)
Barely better than Clam Ferro for literally three times the cost

I pulled up my TT Tech Manual PDF and found the armor values table.

It says armor is 16 points per ton, and we all know with MWOs doubled armor values, that comes to 36 points per ton, and the multiplier values we have are as follows...

IS and Clan standard armor = 1.0

IS Stealth armor = 1.0, but requiring 12 crit slots, 2 crit slots being required in each arm and leg as well, totaling 8 points, leaving the remaining 4 to be split between the side torsos no doubt, as well as requiring the Guardian ECM.

IS Light FF = 1.06, requiring only 7 slots

IS Standard FF = 1.12, requiring 14 slots

Clan Standard FF = 1.2, requiring 7 slots

IS Heavy FF = 1.24, requiring 21 slots

Then of course we have the weight of the mech itself that adds a further factor to the armor amount.

What sort of mech would ever be able to make use of Heavy FF armor? It doesn't seem worth the investment.

[Y E O N N E]

16 by 2 is 32, not 36.

[Alan Davion]

Yeonne Greene, on 16 January 2017 - 07:31 AM, said:

16 by 2 is 32, not 36.

Buh... F*** me I'm still not fully awake yet.

[Mcgral18]

Alan Davion, on 16 January 2017 - 07:26 AM, said:

What sort of mech would ever be able to make use of Heavy FF armor? It doesn't seem worth the investment.

It's equivalent to Endo on the example Hunchback (50 tonner) at max armour
Quick answer: It's not worth it
Endo is always superior when there are no Logistics.


I'd say FF should cost 5 slots for the IS, but some people would call that radical.
Making its function not completely pointless (because it's too large for anything but a very rare build) is the other option. Any Ferro derivative will have that problem.

[El Bandito]

All I gotta say is that Clan FF costing half as much as IS FF in slots while saving more weight is not right. FF/Endo balance is also vital part of overall tech balancing.

[Van Tuz]

Alan Davion, on 16 January 2017 - 06:43 AM, said:

Umm... Clan Endo, Ferro and XL ARE SUPERIOR than their IS counterparts.

Yes, just a little mistake on the word choice. What i meant to say is that these components must be brought to the same power level to have any hope of achieving 1 to 1 balance. LFE won't help much because, as noted in opening post,

Quote

cXL>>LFE>isXL>STD

---

Mcgral18, on 16 January 2017 - 07:13 AM, said:

Seeing as the KCrab is a weak mech overall, I'd wager it's practically more fragile than the Hunch, who win on poking and damage avoidance
...
It would probably help if you didn't use AC10s. The UAC10s are above average.

Right now Clan have superiority in mentioned "poke and hide" because they can use saved weight to mount more weapons and/or better engines without the whole "dying early" history that isXL is stuck with. So, how many IS mechs will become better than their Clan counterparts in every way after the introduction of LFE?
...
Use what? Am i missing something or there's only UAC-5 for IS?
Oh, and the variant of King Crab that i'm using have +30% on ballistic velocity quirk. I wouldn't say that it's better than double damage of UAC

[Mcgral18]

Van Tuz, on 16 January 2017 - 07:46 AM, said:

Right now Clan have superiority in mentioned "poke and hide" because they can use saved weight to mount more weapons and/or better engines without the whole "dying early" history that isXL is stuck with. So, how many IS mechs will become better than their Clan counterparts in every way after the introduction of LFE?
...
Use what? Am i missing something or there's only UAC-5 for IS?
Oh, and the variant of King Crab that i'm using have +30% on ballistic velocity quirk. I wouldn't say that it's better than double damage of UAC

Gauss Rifles
Same performance as Clams, for +3 (well, +6 for KCrab) tons
Another imbalance which was attempted to balance with HP
A noble thought, but not really worth 3 tons.



Quite a few, actually
There are some bad Clams out there, for the same reasons there are lots of bad IS mechs. Bad geometry and weapon mounts.
Weapon balance is, by far, the lesser issue when it comes to faction balance. It's a thing, but at the top end, there are competitors (which are lighter on the Clam side)

Fridge is held aloft with quirks, much like the Cicada, but Cicada does have the larger CT.
Enforcer comes to mind as something that will be much stronger with a LFE, with the sword and board.
Wide variety of Heavies and Assaults. My WubShee can make use of a LFE 380
3LPLs, 5 MPLs, 21 DHS, and a non-death ST
Not much different from the current XL400 (with a mishmash of MPLs and MLs)
It would be an overall more powerful robot than what we have now.
Maulers and Cyclops would improve
Would the Victor become better than Mr Gargles? Eh...probably not. Mr Gargles wins short range, and that's all the Victor can compete at with HoverJets™ being shite


Blackjack would would a LFE, because he has big STs, but he already takes XLs most of the time. Losing weapons would hurt him a bit.

[Mcgral18]

Alan Davion, on 16 January 2017 - 07:26 AM, said:

I pulled up my TT Tech Manual PDF and found the armor values table.

It says armor is 16 points per ton, and we all know with MWOs doubled armor values, that comes to 36 points per ton, and the multiplier values we have are as follows...

IS and Clan standard armor = 1.0

IS Stealth armor = 1.0, but requiring 12 crit slots, 2 crit slots being required in each arm and leg as well, totaling 8 points, leaving the remaining 4 to be split between the side torsos no doubt, as well as requiring the Guardian ECM.

IS Light FF = 1.06, requiring only 7 slots

IS Standard FF = 1.12, requiring 14 slots

Clan Standard FF = 1.2, requiring 7 slots

IS Heavy FF = 1.24, requiring 21 slots

Then of course we have the weight of the mech itself that adds a further factor to the armor amount.

What sort of mech would ever be able to make use of Heavy FF armor? It doesn't seem worth the investment.

Even LFF is pretty shite

Less than a Third of what Clams get for the same price
And I checked the UpgradeTypes.XML, everything is as it should be (according to lore)

35.84=32*1.12
38.4=32*1.2

Directly those values, of course

[Y E O N N E]

Mcgral18, on 16 January 2017 - 02:51 PM, said:

Even LFF is pretty shite

It still lets you do some neat things when combined with smaller, lighter IS future-tech, such as enabling you to take a bigger LFE and shove more of those big DHS into the engine. I can manage 7 slots on top of ES and LFE, but the 14 of standard FF is a no-go.

[Weepy Wanebow]

If they had the other weight saving things that the IS pumped out in order to compete with the clans and had the IS's different types of armor then it wouldn't be as bad. The XXL engine is huge but would change the IS light game completely, they are already dying when they lose a side torso so there is not a huge down side. That locust that was carrying 5 small lasers is suddenly carrying 5 medium lasers or 5 medium er lasers......

The LFE combined with an XL gyro on IS 'mechs that have no weapon hard points in their center torso basically equates to the same weight saved as the cXL. You still die when you lose a center torso and there are still only 2 crit slots of engine in each side torso. Also if they had the ability to change to the IS small {LT-MOB-25} pit, then IS pilots could start throwing some large lasers in their heads which would be nice....it also knocks off like an extra ton in the over all weight of the mech...

Basically in the actual game that MWO is based off of, instead of trying to fix things that were different and inferior, they just gave the IS side way more options. You combine the LFE, XL Gyro, and Small Cockpit and it actually ends up working in your favor to be in an IS 'mech weight wise, even without mixed tech. Clans still have range advantage but the IS can pack on enough weapons that their medium to close range punch is massive

Also heavy lasers burn super hot for clan tech and while their damage is impressive they also take up more crit slots then their ER and pulse counter parts. These would hurt because of some of the weird fixed equipment in clan mechs. They are formidable weapons but they come with unique draw backs that no other clan weapon comes with. Also in TT they make your shooting more difficult because they interfere with sensors and such. If in MWO they have like a total HUD scrabble while firing them and a second or two after then you would see your average clan pilot seriously lose their ability to use them effectively.

and because even though the Dakka is strong right now, if IS could take relective armor it would be pretty mitigating to the still large amount of laser vomit from all sides.

[Y E O N N E]

Smell Da Glove, on 16 January 2017 - 06:09 PM, said:

If they had the other weight saving things that the IS pumped out in order to compete with the clans and had the IS's different types of armor then it wouldn't be as bad. The XXL engine is huge but would change the IS light game completely, they are already dying when they lose a side torso so there is not a huge down side. That locust that was carrying 5 small lasers is suddenly carrying 5 medium lasers or 5 medium er lasers......

And running hot as the sun even if we bring the isML heat back down to 3.

I would like to see what I can get going with isXXL, though, that would be entertaining all by itself.

[Valhallan]

The Lighthouse, on 16 January 2017 - 02:00 AM, said:

A simple question: does this game have any melee mechanic? It is a huge thing and one of the advantages that IS has over Clan. Melee is a huge part of the game and none of the melee stuffs is implemented. It is completely laughable to talking about lore when the game barely has any lore stuffs left and only makes the game worse. There are reasons why previous Mechwarrior and Mechcommander games did not follow TT rules and lore closely because they suck for the video games... yes even Mechcommander 1, the game that probably the closest to TT game you will ever have (well, that is until Battletech comes out.)

Yes, Melee please, i want to use the original mace + tsm to do 80 dmg per hit muwahahahahaha, the spooky fatlass will once again be feared. Also maybe we can finally get the Berserker
For those who want ISXXL don't forget that thing eats 6 more slots than the regular ISXL, also it produces 4 units of heat all on its own, it really won't be an upgrade for the vast majority of ISLights, only the mediums might be able to squeeze an advantage from it.

[Brain Cancer]

Valhallan, on 15 January 2017 - 06:12 PM, said:

The armor type that will save brawlers is not HFF, it's Hardened Armor (at least for heavy and above weight brawling)

Ironically, hardened armor doesn't even need a timeskip.

Like a lot of other useful things not in the game. They just need someone to code them into the system.

[Van Tuz]

So... where do i sign a petition to bring IS-exclusive hardened armor in game?

Edited by Van Tuz, 17 January 2017 - 06:29 AM.