39 replies to this topic

[cazidin]

Greetings MechWarriors. Today I have a simple question. Why does ANYONE want the LFE, which is objectively inferior to the Clan XL engine in almost every way, as opposed to simply giving IS XL the ability to survive ST destruction with similar penalties to C-XL?

Yes. It's new tech. Yes. We all want new tech. Yes. It might be fun for a few niche builds. No. It's not a good idea and with PGI's... limited coding ability, we should focus on new weapons or other important changes. Fixing the IS XL would be a very simple edit.

[FupDup]

Either way, the STD engine needs help at the same time since even now the IS XL is generally better than it.

Also, the LFE at least can do 2 UAC/5 or an AC/20 in the side torso, unlike the IS XL.

[CycKath]

FupDup, on 14 January 2017 - 03:29 PM, said:

Either way, the STD engine needs help at the same time since even now the IS XL is generally better than it.

Also, the LFE at least can do 2 UAC/5 or an AC/20 in the side torso, unlike the IS XL.

Hmm... how about STD and IS XL have true doubles, LFE doubles have same capacity as non-engine heat sinks.

[Amsro]

Having the IS survive a destroyed torso will make standard engine IS mechs obsolete.

Needs a different approach, no I don't have the answer.

To me that is half the fun of taking a 100 ton assault mech with too big an XL engine so I can fire too many weapons efficiently, in exchange for potentially quick death. (which if I'm being honest RARELY happens.)

[cazidin]

FupDup, on 14 January 2017 - 03:29 PM, said:

Either way, the STD engine needs help at the same time since even now the IS XL is generally better than it.

Also, the LFE at least can do 2 UAC/5 or an AC/20 in the side torso, unlike the IS XL.

You're right on both points but I did say that LFE would only be useful for certain niche builds.

Amsro, on 14 January 2017 - 03:32 PM, said:

Having the IS survive a destroyed torso will make standard engine IS mechs obsolete.

Needs a different approach, no I don't have the answer.

To me that is half the fun of taking a 100 ton assault mech with too big an XL engine so I can fire too many weapons efficiently, in exchange for potentially quick death. (which if I'm being honest RARELY happens.)

You and Fup know the question, but not the answer. My proposal would be to increase the agility (accel/decel/twist/etc) of a standard engine. You will almost ALWAYS take a much smaller standard engine, so while it won't have the same top speed it will have comparable or greater agility and thus you'll survive longer.

[Bishop Steiner]

cazidin, on 14 January 2017 - 03:27 PM, said:

Greetings MechWarriors. Today I have a simple question. Why does ANYONE want the LFE, which is objectively inferior to the Clan XL engine in almost every way, as opposed to simply giving IS XL the ability to survive ST destruction with similar penalties to C-XL?

Yes. It's new tech. Yes. We all want new tech. Yes. It might be fun for a few niche builds. No. It's not a good idea and with PGI's... limited coding ability, we should focus on new weapons or other important changes. Fixing the IS XL would be a very simple edit.

Sorry, I want my LFE, so I can have a lighter engine alternative in mechs like my Hunchback and Atlas, yet still run an AC20.

The two concepts, buffing the XL, and having an LFE are not mutually exclusive.

And I would prefer more sweeping balance changes that answer issues beyond this.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 14 January 2017 - 03:39 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

cazidin, on 14 January 2017 - 03:36 PM, said:

You and Fup know the question, but not the answer. My proposal would be to increase the agility (accel/decel/twist/etc) of a standard engine. You will almost ALWAYS take a much smaller standard engine, so while it won't have the same top speed it will have comparable or greater agility and thus you'll survive longer.

Agility isn't the only pitfall to bringing STD. There's also the fact that you can't even bring the same amount of stuff with a STD 300 that you could with a much larger XL (i.e. 350). Like, seriously, I can run 69.7 kph and have 31 tons for stuff of the typically heavier variety oooooooooooor I could run at 81.3 kph and have 34 tons for that same stuff. Hmmmm...

[MacClearly]

I am not a lore guy but I think that this solution would keep the IS and Clan different and be a nod to what exists in lore. Probably make things just easier to swallow and still help out the IS with some balance issues. Personally liked it when IS was heavily favoured in brawling, and Clan had the range. To me it made the fights and various tactics interesting. At the very least I hope PGI is able to retain different flavours or characteristics between the two.

[The Lighthouse]

Amsro, on 14 January 2017 - 03:32 PM, said:

Having the IS survive a destroyed torso will make standard engine IS mechs obsolete.

Needs a different approach, no I don't have the answer.

To me that is half the fun of taking a 100 ton assault mech with too big an XL engine so I can fire too many weapons efficiently, in exchange for potentially quick death. (which if I'm being honest RARELY happens.)

Clan STD engine is obsolete, and no one seems to care about this. Doesn't make that much difference at this point if we make IS STD engine obsolete as well.

[dario03]

cazidin, on 14 January 2017 - 03:27 PM, said:

Greetings MechWarriors. Today I have a simple question. Why does ANYONE want the LFE, which is objectively inferior to the Clan XL engine in almost every way, as opposed to simply giving IS XL the ability to survive ST destruction with similar penalties to C-XL?

Variety.

[MechaBattler]

dario03, on 14 January 2017 - 04:32 PM, said:

Variety.

What he said ^

I like the variety. Not homogenization.

What if they introduced some RNG mechanic that gave a chance for the engine not to take damage or reduced damage? Give to the standard engine too, make it the most survivable engine in the game, that seems like a good reason to take it.

[Spheroid]

I don't agree with the premise. I can see uses for all three engine types. Just because STD will become less prevalent doesn't mean it needs some sort of affirmative action.

LFE really doesn't help the TDR-5SS, a 300 STD is probably still the best engine. As the T-bolt is common so will be STD on the field.

I can imagine using both STD and LFE on Warhammers and Black Knights.

Edited by Spheroid, 14 January 2017 - 04:54 PM.

[Tarl Cabot]

The Lighthouse, on 14 January 2017 - 04:22 PM, said:

Clan STD engine is obsolete, and no one seems to care about this. Doesn't make that much difference at this point if we make IS STD engine obsolete as well.

Though the benefit of using a STD engine vs a durable isXL/LFE would be no HEAT/MOVEMENT penalties, especially in those few mechs where using different engines simply changes the mechs speed +\- a heatsink or two, changing the engagement speed. The benefit Clans see with cXL is both weight savings/speed and the ability to use a shield torso vs the currently isXL death setting. Remember, damage hitting a destroyed side torso is reduced before being transferred.

[Tarl Cabot]

Spheroid, on 14 January 2017 - 04:52 PM, said:

I don't agree with the premise. I can see uses for all three engine types. Just because STD will become less prevalent doesn't mean it needs some sort of affirmative action.

LFE really doesn't help the TDR-5SS, a 300 STD is probably still the best engine. As the T-bolt is common so will be STD on the field.

The T-bolts, Battlemasters, among a few, are mechs that hit that sweet spot and are energy boats, though the BM speed difference between a STD to isXL can be almost 14 KPH, from 64ish KPH to 78 KPH, as an example with the 2C(C). And two of the T-bolts could equip ballistics, but with a fragile isXL it would not be worthwhile to bring them in addition of energy weapons while the Clans do benefit from it. But take the Warhammer 6R. A durable isXL would allow it to equip UAC10 on one side and energy weapons on the other side with the speed to get it in and out.

Do note I am ignoring the current weapon quirks due to we do not know enough details about the new skill tree, no modules nor what the default quirks each mech will have.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 14 January 2017 - 05:08 PM.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

Compact Fusion Engine... +50% mass, -50% slots. Three slot engines. Dual LPL zombie potential for select 'Mechs.

Come at me, bro.

[The Lighthouse]

WrathOfDeadguy, on 14 January 2017 - 05:11 PM, said:

Compact Fusion Engine... +50% mass, -50% slots. Three slot engines. Dual LPL zombie potential for select 'Mechs.

Come at me, bro.

The way STD engines' weights are, you won't have any tonnage left for putting LPL lasers unfortunately.

Now to think about it, LFE also forces us to buy all of the engines again... which is just terrible idea.

[Hit the Deck]

The simple answer is that it's all about optimal builds.

Since IS equipment is more restrictive than Clan's in weight and space, IS needs all three (STD, LFE, and XL) enignes to make optimal builds.

Those engines are not sidegrades between each others, with XL being worth the most mainly because of ClanTech.

Yes, the number of optimal buids using STD will (is) small. The majority of IS 'Mechs should use XL to compete against the Clan.

[Josh Seles]

cazidin, on 14 January 2017 - 03:27 PM, said:

Greetings MechWarriors. Today I have a simple question. Why does ANYONE want the LFE, which is objectively inferior to the Clan XL engine in almost every way, as opposed to simply giving IS XL the ability to survive ST destruction with similar penalties to C-XL?

I'm going to quote myself from a different Clan/IS XL thread:
*(I don't want to retype the same thing over)

Josh Seles, on 09 January 2017 - 07:55 PM, said:

The Light Engine May not be a perfect solution, but then again, nothing is perfect.

I still think Light Engines should be introduced mainly for balance reasons, but also just to have that option. Light Engines aren't much different from Clan XL Engines anyways, both take up 2 side torso slots, both can survive 1 side torso loss, and both are weight-saving. The differences are the tech base (Clan vs IS), and the amount of weight saved compared to Standard engines (Clan XL: 50%, IS Light: 25%)

True, the Light Engine is nowhere near as good as a Clan XL, but its still something. Copy-paste Clan XL game data, modify 2 or 3 values. Of all the Futuretech people want, this is likely, by far, the easiest to implement and introduce.

I can agree, though grudgingly, with Standard engines having durability quirks and specifically, IS XL having small agility quirks, key word being small, to emphasize their roles. Light Engines and Clan XL would get no quirks, they are best of both worlds. Thus, no one engine type is obsoleted, and we don't have to change IS XL fragility. I'd VERY MUCH rather see the elimination of as many quirks as possible.

I cannot and will not agree with changing IS XL survivability.

I stand with the Light Fusion Engine.
*Thread with my old post: https://mwomercs.com...o-xl-imbalance/
*edit: added on

Edited by Josh Seles, 14 January 2017 - 05:34 PM.

[Chados]

Bring on the LFE.

Less side torso slots than an XL and lighter than a STD. STD engines aren't obsolete because you still can boat more heat sinks with them. And no one cares that Clan Battlemechs can take cXLs. I've noticed that in Marauder IICs it's actually a good thing to roll standards because losing a side torso doesn't hinder movement and you can lose both side torsos without death. You trade firepower or armor for that. So it shall be with the LFE.

And now I get to have a dual RAC-5 Rifleman. Yesssss.

[LT. HARDCASE]

Three options are better than two.

The majority of lights and mediums will still use XLs, but the heavy and assault brackets are where the LFE will shine.