52 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

Johnny Z, on 15 January 2017 - 11:56 AM, said:

Why should this game be unbalanced when every other good game ever made was balanced.

Totally.

Promessa, on 15 January 2017 - 11:51 AM, said:

Part of me kind of wants to see an MWO game with all kinds of tech that behaves like it should which would mean obsolete weapons, and then just have matchmaking that filters by era... But, that would split the playerbase up super hard and wouldn't work very well in a game without hundreds of thousands of concurrent players. So, yeah, the new weapons need to balanced for gameplay and not lore, they should probably avoid adding weapons that are just better and focus on adding weapons that do something different.

MWO does not need hundreds of thousands of concurrent players. War Thunder seems to do fine with 30,000 (at least that is what I see when I am playing).

[Y E O N N E]

Nik Reaper, on 15 January 2017 - 07:07 AM, said:

You need to see clearly that the ErML is made for range but if you want to brawl you do not want ErML, even though it can be used, because the ML should do it a lot better ei. shorter burn, less heat and better recycle.

Well, this one is at least easy.

The current Medium Laser is already terrible for brawl because it burns too long and runs too hot for its natural (unquirked) optimum range: 270 meters. Right now, an IS laser boat with three larges and five mediums with 19 DHS has a similar, actually almost identical, natural heat efficiency as the Clan 'Mechs running around with two large pulse and five mediums with 23-24 DHS. This suggests to me that the current ML's heat profile should be what the isERML has.

Meanwhile, the typical quirked laser heat profile drops heat output by 10%. Taken across the whole IS bread-and-butter build of 3x Large-class and 5x Medium-class lasers, that's a reduction of 4.1 heat. If you dump all of that onto the Medium lasers (which you should, so lighter 'Mechs can be less gimped), that means each standard Medium laser would be dealing roughly 3.2 heat. That's where your standard MedLas heat should be.

Shorter duration needs to be a thing simply because at 270 meters, you are getting rolled up on by SRMs, cSPLs, cERSL, and cSPL. The only reason the isML does as well as it does today is because it is almost an isERML already.

isERML: 5 damage, 4.0 heat, 0.90 seconds duration, cool-down of 3.15 seconds
isML: 5 damage, 3.2 heat, 0.82 seconds duration, cool-down of 2.75 seconds

[Cy Mitchell]

Mcgral18, on 15 January 2017 - 10:53 AM, said:

Making 650=1200 isn't a new mechanic, it isn't a quirk, but it's a significant weapon buff to a weapon which is used, I have to imagine, well under 1% of the time.

You don't need Ghost Heat, GHMk2 or GH:The Revolution to balance things
What you need is NotePad

While I agree with you, it bothers me that all the .xlm examples that you submit show increasing values to bring existing weapons up in efficiency or power. As an opponent of power creep and faster TTK, I fear that the weapons being introduced with the timeline jump will escalate power creep and would much rather that they be different options but not necessarily more powerful than their predecessors that fill a similar roll. In the case of new IS weapons, they need to be equal to but not better than existing Clan weapons. If they are too good then they need to be dialed back quickly. Nerfs are not inherently bad and Buffs are not inherently good despite what many gamers seem to believe.

IMO, overall balance in the game is pretty good. Maybe better than it has ever been. My biggest fear is that the new 3060 era weapons may throw everything out of whack instead of finally closing what little gap is left.

Edited by Rampage, 15 January 2017 - 12:21 PM.

[Vanguard836]

Rampage, on 15 January 2017 - 12:20 PM, said:

While I agree with you, it bothers me that all the .xlm examples that you submit show increasing values to bring existing weapons up in efficiency or power. As an opponent of power creep and faster TTK, I fear that the weapons being introduced with the timeline jump will escalate power creep and would much rather that they be different options but not necessarily more powerful than their predecessors that fill a similar roll. In the case of new IS weapons, they need to be equal to but not better than existing Clan weapons. If they are too good then they need to be dialed back quickly. Nerfs are not inherently bad and Buffs are not inherently good despite what many gamers seem to believe.

IMO, overall balance in the game is pretty good. Maybe better than it has ever been. My biggest fear is that the new 3060 era weapons may throw everything out of whack instead of finally closing what little gap is left.

It all depends what they decide to implement which at this point no one knows. Could be minor, could be major.

[El Bandito]

Splatshot, on 15 January 2017 - 09:55 AM, said:

Yeah, like when they invent new weapons, the old never get obsoleted.

We still use those single shot muskets right?

We still panzershrieks right?

Older versions of the AK and M16 never get changed.

Weapons get replaced as they were lacking, there is no way around it.

If there is something better than what you are using, then you would be stupid and now dead not to use it to kill the other person.

Why would PGI be willing to obsolete weapons that they took time creating? Besides, it is very possible to make the new weapons as more of a side grade than straight up upgrade. After all, most of the weapons in the future all have their own downsides to it.

[Mcgral18]

Rampage, on 15 January 2017 - 12:20 PM, said:

While I agree with you, it bothers me that all the .xlm examples that you submit show increasing values to bring existing weapons up in efficiency or power. As an opponent of power creep and faster TTK, I fear that the weapons being introduced with the timeline jump will escalate power creep and would much rather that they be different options but not necessarily more powerful than their predecessors that fill a similar roll. In the case of new IS weapons, they need to be equal to but not better than existing Clan weapons. If they are too good then they need to be dialed back quickly. Nerfs are not inherently bad and Buffs are not inherently good despite what many gamers seem to believe.

IMO, overall balance in the game is pretty good. Maybe better than it has ever been. My biggest fear is that the new 3060 era weapons may throw everything out of whack instead of finally closing what little gap is left.

It's only a bit of a buff, and most of these items have NEVER in the history of MWO been effective


They NEED a buff, with or without Clam tech as a comparison.

As for the 1200M/s cAC20 speed, they used to be 900M/s IIRC (AC20, pre Clams) before their current 650
If we get the isUAC20, we should probably revert that at the minimum, and cAC20 to the 1200 (Burst VS smaller)
The UACs can remain Bowling Ball Launchers


Velocity itself doesn't increase damage potential, but it does make it much easier to hit where you want.

Edited by Mcgral18, 15 January 2017 - 12:43 PM.

[Cy Mitchell]

Mcgral18, on 15 January 2017 - 12:42 PM, said:

Velocity itself doesn't increase damage potential, but it does make it much easier to hit where you want.

Which in turn drastically increase the damage potential unless you were already so good that you never missed!

[Mcgral18]

Rampage, on 15 January 2017 - 12:46 PM, said:

Which in turn drastically increase the damage potential unless you were already so good that you never missed!

PP FLD VS
Burst VS
FIREPOWAH

They'll need some differences

[WrathOfDeadguy]

Yes, new tech will create new issues. However, they're easier issues to correct when the options on the table include roughly equivalent stuff to balance against. We do not have that right now.

LFE is easier to balance against CXL than ISXL or STD, despite still being inferior... it does the same thing, therefore the numbers don't need as much tweaking. Structure quirks can now be based on geometry and hardpoint locations (read: necessary exposure time to fire) rather than whether or not a 'Mech has to take XL in order to fit a decent payload, or STD to avoid instant flaming death. That creates problems for existing builds which then need to be re-engined, but it solves more problems than it creates by streamlining the underlying mechanics.

ER med lasers mean that IS energy boats no longer have to pay 5-7 tons per weapon just to participate in the midrange game. A one ton weapon is much easier to balance against a one ton weapon than a one ton weapon against a five or seven ton weapon. Fire rate, burn time, etc. can be used to make ISERML equivalent to CERML despite the damage gap- although damage adjustments aren't out of the question either, since all the LLs already deal more than TT damage.

Adding the rest of the UACs and LBX make it possible to equalize Clan and IS ACs on a one-for-one basis instead of needing to account for half a dozen different guns that one side simply doesn't have. Should an AC20 be equivalent to a CUAC20, or a CLB20X, or the placeholder CAC20? Or should the ISUAC5 just be that much better because it has to fill the DPS dakka niche for four models of ACs three of which the IS doesn't have? Adding ISUAC2/10/20 means that UACs can be differentiated more from standard ACs, because this one gun no longer has to cover for three- or the three don't have to play catch-up against the one, depending on which is better at any given time- in order to satisfy the game's balance needs. Now we can have AC20 = CAC20, UAC20 = CUAC20, and LB20X = CLB20X without all three weapon systems needing to fill the same role.

SSRM4 and 6 likewise close a tech gap, and allow for streaks to be fixed instead of either being godlike or crap depending on the patch. SSRM6 = CSSRM6, instead of CSSRM6 = SRM6 = CSRM6.

One for one balance requires one for one tech. If one for one balance is what PGI wants, and if it is what the community wants, then new tech is a necessary step. Once it's in, then the numbers can be tweaked to account for tonnage and slot differences between the factions without having to stretch. Outliers can be brought up or down as needed because we'll actually have a stable baseline for once instead of Clans OP this week because better tech, IS OP next week because better quirks. Yup, some stuff is gonna fall by the wayside. Completely new stuff like MRMs and HLs will very probably be broken as hell off the starting line, but the overwhelming majority of the tech in the game will have a direct equivalent. That is a huge step in the right direction.

[Gladius Vittoris]

Johnny Z, on 15 January 2017 - 11:56 AM, said:

Why should this game be unbalanced when every other good game ever made was balanced.

Why limit load outs by making some gear inferior.

Topic closed.

LOL, what are you talking about dude?
When the hell ever a MW title has been balanced??? LOL
and when the hell ever a twitch shooter has ever been balanced?? LOL

Close yourself out

[Gladius Vittoris]

And to make things clear:
Not even chess is balanced.
A random discussion about chess:
"The 2015 Chess Games Database & Community has access to 741,408 chess games (as of February 9). Out of those games:

White wins: 37.51%

Game drawn: 34.88%

Black Wins: 27.61%

Removing draw games, total percentage white wins: 57.60%

White is 9.9% more likely to win at the beginning of game (absent draws).

If you must include draws, white is 4.95% more likely to win."

[JudauAshta]

only filthy freebirth will fear the new weapons, true clan mechwarrior will relish with release of new technology

clan weapons will remain superior