102 replies to this topic

[Cy Mitchell]

Emden, on 15 January 2017 - 08:56 AM, said:

Poptarting is not an issue.... it is the range of PPCs that go along with it. My opinion at least...

Spheroid, on 15 January 2017 - 09:40 AM, said:

Poptarting is fine, the cERPPC is too good right now though. PGI wants to push ERLLAS for range but that is not happening with the current stats.

Either cooldown needs to be increased to allow closing, or velocity needs a mild nerf.

Poptarting is not the issue. It takes skill to do it well. All types of erPPC sniping is more of the real issue. However, I do not think that the erPPC is the problem either. I believe that some of the ridiculous PPC quirks on some Mechs is the real issue. Remove all the PPC velocity quirks from all the Mechs and make the erPPC even more skill dependent and the PPC will be a little less dominant than it is now but still perfectly viable for those that have the skill to properly lead targets and plan shots.

[Bishop Steiner]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 15 January 2017 - 09:37 AM, said:

Tactical Operations pg 86- Opportunity Fire: Firing on the Move

Seriously... I wish I could say that I was surprised to be questioned about something that I consider so basic that is a TN modifier I can quote off the top of my head without even looking at my lamented table indexes.

just going to leave this here:

"Tactical Operations covers the optional rules available to expand the core rules presented in Total Warfare."

Way to cherry pick.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 15 January 2017 - 12:04 PM.

[Mystere]

Snazzy Dragon, on 15 January 2017 - 08:42 AM, said:

How Do You Feel About All The Poptarting?

I never saw it as a problem then and I most certainly do not see it as a problem now. In both instances, I approached it as a challenge to be overcome ... on both sides.

But gamers these days ...

[Snazzy Dragon]

Mystere, on 15 January 2017 - 12:13 PM, said:

I never saw it as a problem then and I most certainly do not see it as a problem now. In both instances, I approached it as a challenge to be overcome ... on both sides.

But gamers these days ...

I was never complaining about it, personally-- I just wanted to see how other players feel about it. The general consensus so far is that it isn't a problem, and that's fine.

[Y E O N N E]

Sjorpha, on 15 January 2017 - 08:59 AM, said:

I don't think it's a problem, jumpsniping is a playstyle that rewards skill because it's fairly complex to do right.

Going to disagree on this. Most 'Mechs are too slow to dodge, whacking them at 600 meters isn't terribly difficult, and it becomes increasingly easier the closer they get. It's harder to hit something at 800+ meters, but that's not the range where pop-tarting does most of its work. If you are half-way decent at deflection shooting, all you need to do is have a good awareness of where your team is, where their team is, a 'Mech with high mounts and jets, and a pair of PPCs. Assuming your team doesn't just melt, which is a thing that can happen which you have no control over, you can dominate a match. I think holding a laser burn on one component of a rapidly twisting target while moving yourself takes more skill than figuring out how many pixels ahead of the target to pop a shot does. The rest of what you need to know for pop-tarting is applicable to any other play-style.

That said, I don't strictly have a problem with pop-tarting. I think it's a fantastic tool that levels the playing field between a heavier 'Mech with all the guns and a lighter, but more agile one with very few guns. That's great. What I take issue with is when already durable 'Mechs with more guns can do it just as well as those lighter 'Mechs. That's broken. It's one thing for a squishy Medium to pop a 20 volley every 6 or so seconds, because even incidental laser hits will wear it down pretty quick. It's another thing entirely for a 70-75 ton monster to rip out that 20 volley every 4 seconds or rip out a 35-40 volley every 6 or 7. Not only does that obsolete the role of the lighter 'Mech barring self-imposed restrictions, it also obsoletes, instantly, all of those other heavier 'Mechs which can't jump but are otherwise very good at what they can do. Not even pop-tarting mediums obsolete other mediums, since they have a huge speed differential which can make one do what the pop-tart can't.

[El Bandito]

Rampage, on 15 January 2017 - 10:22 AM, said:

Poptarting is not the issue. It takes skill to do it well. All types of erPPC sniping is more of the real issue. However, I do not think that the erPPC is the problem either. I believe that some of the ridiculous PPC quirks on some Mechs is the real issue. Remove all the PPC velocity quirks from all the Mechs and make the erPPC even more skill dependent and the PPC will be a little less dominant than it is now but still perfectly viable for those that have the skill to properly lead targets and plan shots.

Hold on there. I might be slightly out of touch with the solo-q right now due to running with the (MS) crew in GQ and CW, but are quirked IS PPCs really that much of an issue? I do not see them dominating in the matches I played--in fact ERLL quirked IS mechs, or CERPPC mechs are far more used instead.

Edited by El Bandito, 15 January 2017 - 12:54 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

El Bandito, on 15 January 2017 - 12:43 PM, said:

Hold on there. I might be slightly out of touch with the solo-q right now due to running with the (MS) crew in GQ and CW, but is quirked IS PPCs really that much of an issue? I do not see them dominating in the matches I played--in fact ERLL quirked IS mechs, or CERPPC mechs are far more used instead.

I rarely see IS PPC 'Mechs. The odd Cicada or Awesome, even Warhammers are laser boats more often than not these days.

At least, that was my December experience in solo queue.

[Siegegun]

Personally I do not mind poptarting. It is nothing like the earlier poptarts of yesteryear. Though I have seen a lot more of them recently. As someone has said it takes skill to actually do well, and now it seems more like another playstyle as opposed to an entire team of them (all in assaults no less). Also it does not seem to be IS poptarts that dominate, but as a couple others mentioned mostly clan. The cerPPC is a beast, no real quirks required.

[Tarl Cabot]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 15 January 2017 - 09:37 AM, said:

Tactical Operations pg 86- Opportunity Fire: Firing on the Move

Seriously... I wish I could say that I was surprised to be questioned about something that I consider so basic that is a TN modifier I can quote off the top of my head without even looking at my lamented table indexes.

That was for TT and its setup. Solaris did not have that restriction, but then it had actual weapon groups (TICS), and only able to fire one TIC or one weapon. TIC had to be setup previously though, or if changed during the game, took a round to make the change without firing any weapons.

[Cy Mitchell]

El Bandito, on 15 January 2017 - 12:43 PM, said:

Hold on there. I might be slightly out of touch with the solo-q right now due to running with the (MS) crew in GQ and CW, but is quirked IS PPCs really that much of an issue? I do not see them dominating in the matches I played--in fact ERLL quirked IS mechs, or CERPPC mechs are far more used instead.

I dislike quirks in general. Maybe the IS Mechs still need erPPC quirks until the timeline jump. They should still be reviewed to see if they should be reduced. The main ones that do not need the quirks and that are dominating are some of the larger Mechs like the Night Gyr, TimberWolf and Summoner Loyolaty, Hunchback IIC etc that have big velocity quirks but can also add a big targeting computer.

Generally, I would like to see them remove the velocity quirks and then adjust the weapons to where they want them. If the player chooses to add a huge targeting computer to get velocity and crit benefits then at least they have paid a price and made sacrifices for that. The huge velocity quirks on some Mechs do not come with a price and are not needed in many cases.

[Tarl Cabot]

Snazzy Dragon, on 15 January 2017 - 12:32 PM, said:

I was never complaining about it, personally-- I just wanted to see how other players feel about it. The general consensus so far is that it isn't a problem, and that's fine.

As long as JJ are not completely reverted to the original version but the current setup improved, no real issue. Victor/Highlanders would still have a weak alpha compared to the newer mechs, primarily Clan mechs. The original version though had it setup so most of the thrust/acceleration was from the 1st jump jet, so most Victors/Highlanders/Phracts did not have to take more than 1 for the desired result and would make the current jumpsniping to shame.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 15 January 2017 - 01:06 PM.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Bishop Steiner, on 15 January 2017 - 12:03 PM, said:

just going to leave this here:

"Tactical Operations covers the optional rules available to expand the core rules presented in Total Warfare."

Way to cherry pick.

Means... YOU CAN NOT POPTART AT ALL IN THE BASIC RULESET!!!!!!!!! Way to be so deliberately obtuse, to try to make an irrelevant point.

So you are the one "cherry picking" what Rules to follow and which to not follow... cause in over 20 years it has NEVER been a consideration for gameplay Balance that a mech can jump out of Full Cover, Alpha, then land in Full Cover.

Edited by I_AM_ZUUL, 15 January 2017 - 01:20 PM.

[Brenden]

I don't know. I like the Frosted kind though.

[Koniving]

Snazzy Dragon, on 15 January 2017 - 08:42 AM, said:

I'm fine with poptarting.
I'm NOT fine with Invisible Walls that protect poptarts by letting them see where they need to aim before they poptart while being 100% protected and invincible up until they make the jump.

[Jackal Noble]

Monkey Lover, on 15 January 2017 - 10:02 AM, said:

Cerppc needs 10-35% more heat and cool down.Even then it will still be less tons and slots.

No.

[SuomiWarder]

It isn't the general idea of jumping above an obstacle and firing that is the issue. "Poptarting" becomes a problem when third person view enters the picture, allowing the jumping mech to see over the obstacle and start aiming before it should be able to see the target. A little practice and soon one can get just barely high enough for weapons to clear, limiting exposure. These things cannot be done when locked in first person view.

[Jackal Noble]

Also Snazzy , a great poptart mech is the Phoenix Hawk PHX-1b, WHICH HAS 50% VELOCITY....and ecm.
Add the structure and acceleration quirks (60% I believe) and you have a fantastic platform for poptarting.
300 xl, two standard ppcs 4-5 jjs with speed of 116 kph. The speed is usually enough to counter the 90 m min range. Can swap for a erppc but can really chain fire then.
So yeah IS has some poptarters. Shadow hawk has high mounts.

Edited by JackalBeast, 15 January 2017 - 01:29 PM.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

JackalBeast, on 15 January 2017 - 01:29 PM, said:

Also Snazzy , a great poptart mech is the Phoenix Hawk PHX-1b, WHICH HAS 50% VELOCITY....and ecm.
Add the structure and acceleration quirks (60% I believe) and you have a fantastic platform for poptarting.
300 xl, two standard ppcs 4-5 jjs with speed of 116 kph. The speed is usually enough to counter the 90 m min range. Can swap for a erppc but can really chain fire then.
So yeah IS has some poptarters. Shadow hawk has high mounts.

Comparing what IS mech can do to what Clan mechs can do is a joke ... right??? Cause you could not have possibly been serious when you wrote that.

[TechChris]

Monkey Lover, on 15 January 2017 - 10:02 AM, said:

Cerppc needs 10-35% more heat and cool down.Even then it will still be less tons and slots.

JackalBeast, on 15 January 2017 - 01:20 PM, said:

No.

Yeah....I'm agree with Jackal.

Now as for that numbers comparison plucked from Smurphy's. Let's add in the thing it forgot. Which is that 1/3 of that DPS is mostly useless (especially for scenario of poparting where you are trying to precisely drill thru an enemy with repeated low/medium damage/alphas and make it worth while by minimizing exposure to accurate return fire) splash damage.... that's only really good for inflating your score and c-bill earnings in QP and such IMO.

Factor out that wasted 5 splash damage, and account for only the 10 true PP damage the numbers become more like

IS ER-PPC 3 Slots 7 Tons 2.5 DPS 0.74 DPH
CLAN ER-PPC 2 Slots 6 Tons 2.5 DPS 0.71 DPH


The two are a bit more similar when you look at em this way, thru what I consider there actual battlefield impact, and the Clan version is even a bit hotter to account for the "benefit" of the splash damage.
True the Clan version is still smaller and lighter.......but well......Clan Tech, that's all I got for that! Well that, and that I feel IS should be allowed to fire up to 3 PPC/ERPPC w/o ghost heat, but once again that's IMO!
Also note that I've no Clan/IS affiliation. I use what entertains me at time. So let's not go into Clan Vs. IS piss-n territory either.
Just throwing my opinion out as well.........nothing personal meant by this FYI!

Edited by TechChris, 15 January 2017 - 01:58 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 15 January 2017 - 01:35 PM, said:

Comparing what IS mech can do to what Clan mechs can do is a joke ... right??? Cause you could not have possibly been serious when you wrote that.

The IS do have some competent pop-tarts. I'm not sure I'd count the PXH among them, it's more of a corner-poker, but the BJ-3 is pretty stupendous in the role. The splash damage and faster engine drive the HBK-IIC-A into favor; it's not even an XL problem, since the BJ-3 runs about as cold on a STD 225 engine with 14 DHS.

On the heavy side, though, IS got nothin'.