216 replies to this topic

[Pika]

MacClearly, on 16 January 2017 - 11:07 AM, said:

Words

I literally just groaned out loud and slid down my chair a little. I'm done talking to a wall. Clans have a very minor advantage atm. If you think this 40% change will change anything about the game as it stands right now then... Well. We'll see when we're still having this same old argument in 3 months time.

Oh why am I bothering. Weapons weigh the way they do because of fixed gear and omnipod limitations. Clans also run way way hotter, have slower refire rates, longer burn times, fire in bursts, require more face time have like, no structure quirks worth mentioning bar a few exceptions making them super squishy, can't change their engine sizes making their lights move as fast as IS mediums and their Mediums can't even do their job right bar 2-3.

But nope. Light weapons and XL engines means they're totally OP...

Yeah. I'm done. It's like talking to a wall.

Edited by Pika, 16 January 2017 - 11:20 AM.

[Mystere]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 16 January 2017 - 10:56 AM, said:

the point is that copying from lore does not make for a well designed FPS.

And I think you've missed the point, again. It's not really about copying lore. It's running the design via a lore-based filter. Koniving example is just that, an example.

Lupis Volk, on 16 January 2017 - 11:07 AM, said:

How about you go play TT then, i hear it's got all sorts of wacky checks and balances. This is a god dam video game, there needs to be balance or your game is going to die. No one will want to play the weaker IS we're seeing that in the FW data. So go take your TT and "lore" and shove it where the sun don't shine buttercup.

And you're much much worse.

Edited by Mystere, 16 January 2017 - 11:24 AM.

[MacClearly]

1453 R, on 16 January 2017 - 11:05 AM, said:

Clans, in lore, were ironically balanced by many of the things the Sphere players currently decry. Lower overall numbers were mostly a factor of the Clan bidding system, and restrictive ritual rules such as Zellbrigen reined in some of the worst excesses of Clan technology, if played properly. Essentially, the Clans had really awesome gear but fought in a manner best described as "dumb as rocks", encourging Sphere players to set ambushes, focus fire, and do tactical things that Clans found dezgrah.

Can't be having any of that in our MWO game, though. Oh no, oh no.



One thing folks should also keep in mind is that two 0.5s make a 1. The iXL doesn't necessarily need one, singular boost that is itself equivalent to no-shoulder-blowout. What if the iXL provided a torso mobility boost, a structure boost, and a heat efficiency boost, or another such package-deal situation in which numerous smaller factors add up to a total that makes Clan players wish they could swap to iXLs on their machines, instead?

"Strict 1-to-1" balance is misleading and reductionistic - so long as both tech bases as a whole are competitive with each other, then each is allowed to have strong points and weak points.

I think I follow. I would be Ok with a bunch of little boosts. Like I said I actually liked the range versus brawl but since so many of the population is playing the majority of their matches in quick play I could see this as being a huge issue for some. I remember when the Tbolt would erase an Ebon if it got within 300m. Clan pilots freaked out. Well the ones who couldn't pick off the left torso did anyway.

How to implement the strict conduct or code that Clan seemed to follow to their own detriment would be tricky to implement. The Zell... for instance I would be fine with if it was implemented in FW but I personally would get pissy if it was in quick play. I am just one voice however. It just seems that stuff would be inordinately difficult to inforce or implement in a multiplayer game but I wouldn't be against trying it out if PGI thought they could introduce into FW or some sort of immersive mode.

[Nightbird]

IS mechs have quirks already to compensate for isXL and weapon disadvantages. I think the main problem is that PGI assigns unhelpful quirks a lot of the times, so once you can customize your own quirks, IS mechs will probably continue to have more "points" to select quirks with, and the strength of IS mechs will be pilot customization. If you want to protect your ST, select Atlas sized structure quirks for your mech. Problem solved.

Edited by ironnightbird, 16 January 2017 - 11:27 AM.

[Mystere]

MacClearly, on 16 January 2017 - 11:22 AM, said:

How to implement the strict conduct or code that Clan seemed to follow to their own detriment would be tricky to implement. The Zell... for instance ...

I already have given an example of that in a few threads similar to this. Keep the information-sharing properties of IS sensors and HUDs. Heck, even improve on them if necessary. Then keep the Clan versions individualistic -- with some slightly better abilities, if necessary as well.

[Lupis Volk]

Mystere, on 16 January 2017 - 11:18 AM, said:

And you're much much worse.

Oh yes, i'm sooo much worse for not wanting a game to be hobbled by a medium that is hard to transfer from pen and paper to video games and we're expecting PGI to do that.....

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mystere, on 16 January 2017 - 11:18 AM, said:

And I think you've missed the point, again. It's not really about copying lore. It's running the design via a lore-based filter. Koniving example is just that, an example.

Except the problem is when that lore-based filter doesn't work, like Koniving's examples. It should use that filter on a case-by-case basis when it can, and this like ACs isn't one of those cases where it can without going against good FPS game design.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 16 January 2017 - 11:32 AM.

[MacClearly]

Pika, on 16 January 2017 - 11:15 AM, said:

more foolishness and even more whining and willful ignorance while claiming the other side just doesn't understand....

It absolutely makes sense that you are done because your argument doesn't make sense and all of the current data completely contradicts the nonsense you are trying to espouse.

You cannot win this argument with saying 'it's not fair' like an impetuous child.

You cannot ignore the data that Clan mechs are performing better.

You cannot ignore the difference between st death and st reduction of 40% in cooling. They still are not equivelent. Even with this, who actually expects to see the IS making up for all of the planets they have lost in FW??? Look at the data and wait to see what the impact will actually be before you complain about it not being fair.

[MacClearly]

Mystere, on 16 January 2017 - 11:28 AM, said:

I already have given an example of that in a few threads similar to this. Keep the information-sharing properties of IS sensors and HUDs. Heck, even improve on them if necessary. Then keep the Clan versions individualistic -- with some slightly better abilities, if necessary as well.

Oh I do recall you saying that. It did not seem to be popular. I think it would anger a lot of people especially since it hasn't been like that so it would be quite the adjustment.

Actually kind of amazing to me that stuff like that couldn't be implemented in FW while kept out of quick play for instance? I would at least be up for trying out some lore friendly stuff perhaps in they had an FW test server. Keep in mind however I am one of those invested type players who regularly plays both sides. So I wouldn't be as closed to stuff considering I would not be 'losing' anything either way.

[Lupis Volk]

MacClearly, on 16 January 2017 - 11:36 AM, said:

It absolutely makes sense that you are done because your argument doesn't make sense and all of the current data completely contradicts the nonsense you are trying to espouse.

You cannot win this argument with saying 'it's not fair' like an impetuous child.

You cannot ignore the data that Clan mechs are performing better.

You cannot ignore the difference between st death and st reduction of 40% in cooling. They still are not equivelent. Even with this, who actually expects to see the IS making up for all of the planets they have lost in FW??? Look at the data and wait to see what the impact will actually be before you complain about it not being fair.

since FW data is being brought in, If IS had the XL buff that 90% of the community wanted. The builds with the firepower needed to take on clans would no longer be very, very punishing. For IS to have the firepower needed to take on clans they need an XL most times, some do get ST but most use XL.

Once IS has that buff, then maybe things might even up somewhat. But alas you can't balance stupidity.

Edited by Lupis Volk, 16 January 2017 - 11:46 AM.

[1453 R]

You either balance with Zellbrigen rules or equivalent technology, not both. if Clan gear is knocked down until it's 1-for-1 identical to Sphere T1 GarboTech, then you also expect the Clans to rigidly adhere to Zellbrigen while the Sphere doesn't have to, that's a recipe for irritated Clansmen.

Not that Mystere will listen, unfortunately. But yeah - if tech balance is the ideal, and it is, then Zellbrigen can't be enforced as an additional hindrance to Clan units which are not benefitting from the technological edge that's canonically supposed to counterweight Zellbrigen rules. One or the other. Not both.

[Mystere]

MacClearly, on 16 January 2017 - 11:42 AM, said:

Oh I do recall you saying that. It did not seem to be popular. I think it would anger a lot of people especially since it hasn't been like that so it would be quite the adjustment.

Well, if I just followed the herd, I won't be where I am today. My life is mostly not following what was popular.

MacClearly, on 16 January 2017 - 11:42 AM, said:

Actually kind of amazing to me that stuff like that couldn't be implemented in FW while kept out of quick play for instance? I would at least be up for trying out some lore friendly stuff perhaps in they had an FW test server. Keep in mind however I am one of those invested type players who regularly plays both sides. So I wouldn't be as closed to stuff considering I would not be 'losing' anything either way.

I actually prefer that general combat mechanics be the same between QP and CW. As such, I would really prefer solo QP be forced IS vs. Clan, IS. vs IS, and Clan vs. Clan based on player availability at time of queuing up (while group QP can do what it wants -- I assume everyone knows what they are doing in there).

[Lupis Volk]

1453 R, on 16 January 2017 - 11:47 AM, said:

You either balance with Zellbrigen rules or equivalent technology, not both. if Clan gear is knocked down until it's 1-for-1 identical to Sphere T1 GarboTech, then you also expect the Clans to rigidly adhere to Zellbrigen while the Sphere doesn't have to, that's a recipe for irritated Clansmen.

Not that Mystere will listen, unfortunately. But yeah - if tech balance is the ideal, and it is, then Zellbrigen can't be enforced as an additional hindrance to Clan units which are not benefitting from the technological edge that's canonically supposed to counterweight Zellbrigen rules. One or the other. Not both.

Do anything that takes away from the perceived Clans ubermensch and you'll have irate Clamsman. Though oddly enough many were in favour of having IX XL not kill ya from a ST loss.

[TorinZ]

What should be done IMO...

Clan XL - leave as is with the 20% heat penalty
IS XL - remove the 1 side torso death but give them the 40% heat penalty
LFE - if they even add this engine, can match the Clan XL for penalties and provide the IS with lower slot usage in the side torsos. Though I have my doubts they will add the engine.

As for the Omni discussions in the thread - I personally don't have an issue with allowing engine swaps on all Omnimechs. Would it really give a Clan Omni that much better of an edge? I don't really think it would be a big deal after seeing the clan battlemechs in game. It just allows a player to have more build options which is never a bad thing.


Of course allowing Omnimechs to swap engines will better benefit the IS omnis that will be coming out more. The 40t Strider has a STD engine, will it have the tonnage needed to compete? Blackjack 50t Omni has a 200XL, 64kph makes me cringe for that size of mech (either way I would probably still buy it). Sunder with an XL, would it benefit to have a STD engine for more torso slots? Who knows...

[Lupis Volk]

TorinZ, on 16 January 2017 - 11:51 AM, said:

What should be done IMO...

Clan XL - leave as is with the 20% heat penalty
IS XL - remove the 1 side torso death but give them the 40% heat penalty
LFE - if they even add this engine, can match the Clan XL for penalties and provide the IS with lower slot usage in the side torsos. Though I have my doubts they will add the engine.

As for the Omni discussions in the thread - I personally don't have an issue with allowing engine swaps on all Omnimechs. Would it really give a Clan Omni that much better of an edge? I don't really think it would be a big deal after seeing the clan battlemechs in game. It just allows a player to have more build options which is never a bad thing.


Of course allowing Omnimechs to swap engines will better benefit the IS omnis that will be coming out more. The 40t Strider has a STD engine, will it have the tonnage needed to compete? Blackjack 50t Omni has a 200XL, 64kph makes me cringe for that size of mech (either way I would probably still buy it). Sunder with an XL, would it benefit to have a STD engine for more torso slots? Who knows...

well the thing is people wanted penalties for IS XL IF it was like clans, but to be toned down because IS XL takes up much more space than a Clan one.

[Mystere]

1453 R, on 16 January 2017 - 11:47 AM, said:

Not that Mystere will listen ....

And again:




Just stop ... or seek professional help. <smh>

[1453 R]

Lupis Volk, on 16 January 2017 - 11:50 AM, said:

Do anything that takes away from the perceived Clans ubermensch and you'll have irate Clamsman. Though oddly enough many were in favour of having IX XL not kill ya from a ST loss.

Not everyone in a Clan 'Mech is out to eat babies, y'know. People who're against gibless iXLs, like myself, are not against it because we're evil moustache-twirling villain people who hate all Sphere players. We're against it because it's a bad boring solution, and one that harms the Different-But-Equal paradigm the Clan/Sphere tech divide should be following.

I don't want the iXL to be an identical stand-in for the cXL, I want the iXL to be something I look at and go "Man, I wish I could load that on my Adder sometime" or the like. Because otherwise the game is just more boring. And more boring is bad. If it ends up being the only way, then fine. But I'd like to investigate better options first, especially since gibless iXLs invalidates the LFE as well as the STD engine.

[FupDup]

Too far? Probably not. I can't see Clan Battlemechs suddenly start considering STD engines, and I definitely don't see the IS XL stacking up to the newly nerfed Clan XL.

However, I think it's kind of a pointless change for that reason. It's not really fixing the issue, it's just making life a little bit harder for the Clan Excel engine without actually balancing it. To actually balance it will have to involve either cripplingly hard nerfs (considering that even the IS XL is superior to STD in most situations) or buff up the other things by a fairly big margin. I'm more favorable to the latter...

[Pika]

MacClearly, on 16 January 2017 - 11:36 AM, said:

Buddy, I'm done here because since the get-go you've been a very horrible person to interact with, haven't understood that I'm arguing in your favour and failed to understand that I have never once said Clans don't have advantages. I've only ever argued against you're terrible and awful idea that surviving an ST loss on an IS 'Mech will make the game more balanced (It won't, everyone would just switch to IS.).

I stand by my prior statement that you shouldn't ever be involved in balance in this game. With that said, I'll be adding you to my ignore list and moving on - perhaps to threads where people are able to formulate a response without insulting the other person or even realise when the other person is advocating for their side.

[Lupis Volk]

1453 R, on 16 January 2017 - 11:56 AM, said:

Not everyone in a Clan 'Mech is out to eat babies, y'know. People who're against gibless iXLs, like myself, are not against it because we're evil moustache-twirling villain people who hate all Sphere players.

Now that you've said that i can not unsee it. I shall henceforth see all Clamers as 1920 villain moustache twirling while around a round table while plotting the next scheme that'll end the IS.