17 replies to this topic

[Trunok]

I pretty much don't like the use of lurms on heavy + mechs, but on the IS two lrm20 with artemis are quite a punch since they come in a entire pack unlike the clan lrm, so they can be viable at mid range//open field and he have sufficiente support weapons to share armor in a push while attacking the back enemy lines tanking damage, even so, lurms are so hated... is it worth in the archer?

[Bud Crue]

I'd argue that 2LRM 20's with or without artemis are almost never worth it. Even if all you have is 2 hardpoints, two a+15s are better. The possible exception being on the quirked Stalker, but I wouldn't do that either for ethical reasons.

[TooDumbToQuit]

I turned mine into an SRM blaster.

LRMs are not a bad thing, there are good uses for them. A couple of LRM armed Mechs behind the main line can bring fire support OVER the others instead of trying to elbow for a place in the firing line.

The reasons they are disliked are varied and a lot of them are caused by people using LRMs. One reason is simply that players do not like being killed by them. They do not feel it is "honorable". These people seem to not realize that more people have been killed by Artillery and some say, by mortars then any other weapon in the history of man.

A lot of people who hate them also say they are easy to avoid. But that depends on the map and how many mechs are using LRMs and from what directions. LRMs work best if you have 3-4 Mech using them.

Way too many people shoot them from too far away. LRMs are slow and once you shoot, the enemy mech gets the warning in his cockpit. If fired between 3-500 Meters, he will have little time. If fired at over 6-700 meters, he has too much time to move. LRMS are SLOW!

[Ruar]

If I had to use an Archer I would put 2x LRM 15 and then some medium lasers with enough heat sinks I can fire a few volleys before overheating. Then I would play as a near support instead of long range in the back. The idea is LRMs till you get close enough for the lasers then operate primarily as a laser boat.

If I just want to play as an LRM boat then I would go with the Trebuchet with 2x LRM 15 and then two med lasers for when the ammo runs out. Just as much long range firepower as the Archer and less tonnage so you aren't taking up a heavy slot for support.

I've never really understood the idea of using a heavy or assault for a support role. Those two classes should be pushing attacks and absorbing damage. Mediums are the support mechs and should be the only ones focused primarily on LRMs.

[TooDumbToQuit]

I'm not sure what variant you were talking about. If a Mech has enough missile hardpoints, I will use 4-5 LRM 5's but with them being all shot together at the same time.






Try to have back up, close in weapons to protect yourself. And I like having something I can hit with as well as LRM's. A TAG is a great thing also.

[Ebins]

Trunok, on 17 January 2017 - 10:17 AM, said:

I pretty much don't like the use of lurms on heavy + mechs, but on the IS two lrm20 with artemis are quite a punch since they come in a entire pack unlike the clan lrm, so they can be viable at mid range//open field and he have sufficiente support weapons to share armor in a push while attacking the back enemy lines tanking damage, even so, lurms are so hated... is it worth in the archer?

In reality, there is an elitist attitude from a lot of players and they tend to look down their noses at those who don't play according to what they think is correct. You're going to find lots of hate for running a missile boat. Now although I don't think such attitudes have a place in any gaming community (it actually shows a lack of character on said haters), you will find issues especially in the higher tiers if you hang back and just lob missiles. That being said, the Archer has historically been a missile boat by design. That's why it's called the "Archer. If you want to be successful, try to build a load out that can lob the most missiles in the shortest amount of time. This is pretty much why LRM20's are frowned upon. Although they fire a nice spread of artillery, the reload time is quite hefty. Instead, try LRM15's or something lighter. Also, while fighting, try not to hang too far back. I'd rather group with a missile boat that stays up with the group instead of hanging back to become easy pickings. Also understand that you'll need the support of your teammates for missile locks. Unfortunately, a lot of players forget how easy it is to hit the "r" key to target an enemy. This can be frustrating.

If you have the slots and can come up with a good mixture, try perhaps a mixture of lrms and srms for that close in fire power. Also understand that as a LRM missile boat, if you are being attacked in close quarters, you have really no way of defending yourself unless you have some sort of secondary weapons system. This is also another good reason to stick with your teammates.

All of this being said, IS mechs aren't that expensive as compared to Clan mechs, so what is to stop you from trying something new? MWO is just a computer game, meant to have fun with. Yes, this community is highly competitive for better or for worse, but as long as you are having fun, that is the most important thing. Good luck, warrior!

[SilentScreamer]

Trunok, on 17 January 2017 - 10:17 AM, said:

I pretty much don't like the use of lurms on heavy + mechs, but on the IS two lrm20 with artemis are quite a punch since they come in a entire pack unlike the clan lrm, so they can be viable at mid range//open field and he have sufficiente support weapons to share armor in a push while attacking the back enemy lines tanking damage, even so, lurms are so hated... is it worth in the archer?

If your playstyle allows you to share armor and push with the team you are doing well. Most pilots have difficultly with the zero damage from I.S. LRM launchers from range 0 to 180 meters. Clan LRM launchers have no such limitation so maddogs, summoners and timberwolves are much more suited for that playstyle despite firing a stream of missiles rather than a blob.

Ruar, on 17 January 2017 - 11:26 AM, said:

If I had to use an Archer I would put 2x LRM 15 and then some medium lasers with enough heat sinks I can fire a few volleys before overheating. Then I would play as a near support instead of long range in the back. The idea is LRMs till you get close enough for the lasers then operate primarily as a laser boat.

If I just want to play as an LRM boat then I would go with the Trebuchet with 2x LRM 15 and then two med lasers for when the ammo runs out. Just as much long range firepower as the Archer and less tonnage so you aren't taking up a heavy slot for support.

I've never really understood the idea of using a heavy or assault for a support role. Those two classes should be pushing attacks and absorbing damage. Mediums are the support mechs and should be the only ones focused primarily on LRMs.

Very good points, I also prefer a mobile medium if my mech is relying on LRMs for a primary weapon. However the O.P. did mention he intends to push and share armor. An Archer with some backup weapons may be a better choice than the Trebuchet.

Ebins, on 17 January 2017 - 01:38 PM, said:

All of this being said, IS mechs aren't that expensive as compared to Clan mechs, so what is to stop you from trying something new?

I.S. mechs are cheaper for the initial purchase. Artemis launchers are expensive for both tech types. If double heatsinks, endosteel and an XL engine are needed for upgrades the cost difference between I.S. and Clan tech mechs goes quick.

Edited by SilentScreamer, 17 January 2017 - 06:16 PM.

[Ebins]

SilentScreamer, on 17 January 2017 - 06:09 PM, said:

I.S. mechs are cheaper for the initial purchase. Artemis launchers are expensive for both tech types. If double heatsinks, endosteel and an XL engine are needed for upgrades the cost difference between I.S. and Clan tech mechs goes quick.

Sure, but then take into consideration the II-C variants of IS mechs, and you have the same thing. Over all man, clan tech does cost a lot more. Let's not kid ourselves, ok? Also, I pity the pilot who routinely sells any engines he/she purchases. It's not hard to swap out engines across mechs.

But lets look at the actual costs of mechs, shall we? The IS Jenner costs 3 million right out of the gate. The Clan Jenner II-C costs 6.5 million. This is before engine swaps, or any other modifications.

IS Hunchback costs 4.5 million, Hunchback II-C costs 6.8. Again, before any modifications.

This keeps ramping up per weight class.

Ok, let's forget clan II-C mechs. Purchase an omnimech. Oh, they don't need to purchase engines, but they certainly need to purchase omni-pods and those aren't cheap. Now it's a given that omnipods are cheaper than engines, but unlike engines, you can't swap them between chassis (example, between a kitfox and a arctic cheetah). Also, omnipod costs rise per weight class. A single omnipod for a Dire wolf assault costs 439,000 for each one. That means if you are going to do just a couple of swaps, that's close to 1 million c-bills. For clan mechs to compete with the insane amount of quirks that IS mechs have, pod swapping is a must. Unless of course you try to pod swap on the of the newer clan mechs, where you basically lose all quirks when you do.

The cost differential becomes extreme the heavier the chassis you go. Let's look at assaults. The innersphere atlas starts at 9.3 million. The Clan dire wolf starts at 17.1 million. That's an almost 8 million c-bill difference.

Weapon costs are basically similar.

I'm sorry, but I just have to disagree.

On the whole, someone could purchase the cheapest Archer for 6.2 million (a 70 ton mech) whereas the Hellbringer (a 65 ton clan mech) starts out at 12.4 million. The Summoner, (70 ton clan mech) starts out at 13.9 million. In my book, that doesn't come close to evening out.

Edited by Ebins, 17 January 2017 - 07:05 PM.

[TooDumbToQuit]

Let's do not get off the track but my Archers were well priced but I did end up putting XL's in them.

Some people think getting a lot of damage 800 meters back means they do well. Well, that only happens if the rest of your team is protecting you or the other teams are newbs. Better players will mark you and "cut you out of the herd' and you will die without being sure what killed you. I wish I had saved some builds (I sold off the 3rd one) but I did well staying with or right behind our main pushers. And I always have lasers that I can hit the enemy with at the same time as my LRM's. Hitting your target with a laser as well as LRMs will make a lot of difference in your kill total and staying alive.

And you need to be able to protect yourself within the 180 or whatever meters area for IS LRMs.

Here is the deal and here is how you help your team. Hopefully, you are moving and shooting together. The first 2-3 mechs on your team can hit the enemy with there Line Of Sight weapons. Any other Mechs have to wait till they die or fall back. So only so much damage can be dealt at one time. But if your team has an LRM mech or three and you WORK TOGETHER right behind your pushing Heavies and Assaults, you are dealing our more damage per second on one enemy target and he goes boom.

Be ready to launch a lot of LRMs at one time and carry less ammo if needed, it will help you pick better targets and not see as many of them hit rocks. The Archer has on the top of it's head a perfect spot for a TAG.

Look up a Snuggles Time youtube video on how long it takes LRMs to travel a certain distance.

Then ask why almost everyone here believes the first Module you get is the $6 million radar derp.

My advice is unless you have a slow enemy in the clear with your TAG on him, do not fire at a distance that forces your LRMs to travel for over 3.5 seconds.

Hope that is good for now, my hands are hurting

Edited by LikeUntoGod, 17 January 2017 - 07:54 PM.

[Rogue Jedi]

Ebena, with regards to Clan v IS pricing, please compare the price of a fully outfitted ACH vs a fully outfitted SDR, the Arctic Cheetah works out a lot cheeper than the Spider, if I remember correctly the ACH works out at about 7 mil compared to 9.5 for a Spider, those comparisons hold true for most light Mechs and many mediums as well as many Heavy and some assualt Mechs.

If you are adding Endo Steel DHS and an XL engine, which are upgrades many IS Mechs need to complete will add 6-8 million to the purchase price, where as the Clan Battlemechs usualy have those upgrades, OK you may want a dfierant size XL costing 4-6 million and some varients do not have a Clan XL but most do.

If you already have the right engine or plan on sharing the engine between multiple Mechs then yes IS work out cheeper than Clan however if you are fully outfitting one IS Mech the extra 4 million (new standard engine, DHS, Endo) - 8 million (large XL, Endo, DHS) will usually bring the cost close to or higher than an equivalent Clan Mech

[TooDumbToQuit]

I still do not know the Variant he was talking about.

As far as how many missiles are falling at the same time. that is up to the size of the launchers and your heat management. This is one reason you see some players send them in waves using chain fire or Fire Control.

Plus, the larger the launcher, the wider the spread. So it is believed that an LRM 15 will be tighter and thus hit better than a LRM 20. And then a lrm10 is better than an lrm 15 and a lrm 5 is better than a lrm10.

So some players now will use 4 missile hardpoints and send waves of LRM 5's.

I've noticed in my recorded games that shooting LRM 5's in chain fire means that depending on the situation, shooting LRM 5's alone do not have much of effect because they are being shot down by AMS systems. So I will shoot 4-5 LRM 5's at one time. I consider it a tight LRM 20.

But that is dribble damage and the most horrible thing as an LRM boat, and a IS one being worse is when someone comes for you and you have nothing but streams of LRM 5's to stop him. And then you die thinking that you need to think about your build.

Heat management is also better the larger the launcher. Two 5's use more heat than one 10 etc. An LRM 20 is the most heat efficient.

If you want to move with your team then big launchers can do well. If you are using Artemis, remember that it only works with line of sight, in other words, you have to see your target. But if you can see your target then hit it with large masses of LRMs. Having a TAG really helps. It also allows you to target mechs with ECM.

One or more of the Archers used to have a quirk to help the spread of an LRM 20 but I think it is gone now.

[Ebins]

Rogue, it's Ebins, not Ebena. I stand by the facts of what I stated. I'll let the match speak for itself and not worry about arguing over that.

LikeUntoGod, yes, I do know that if you do not have enough missile tubes available for the spread you want to launch (20 missiles out of a 15 tube), then yes, there will be a little spread. That being said, it's common knowledge that (ok, let's be specific - for available tubes), IS is more burst damage than waves.

I don't know why you guys are busting my balls about this but I'm moving on. This really isn't that hard to "debate," and I would rather see new pilots become aware to all the options available to them, the real costs, and not stumble into something unawares.

[mailin]

There is an Archer (5W maybe) that has 9 missile points. I have mine loaded with lrm 5s and I chain fire them. Stay about 500 meters from the enemy and they will arch over the friendlies to hit the target. The only issue is that you have to keep your eye on the minimap and stay close to your team for support if you get into trouble. As far as AMS goes, I don't worry about it. 9 lrm 5s will chew through the ams ammo before the enemy realizes it, and some will always hit, but the enemy doesn't know how many are hitting him. The added bonus is that if he turns to look at you he will be blinded by the flashes of impacts. Love my lrm 5s.

Edited by mailin, 21 January 2017 - 10:58 AM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Bud Crue, on 17 January 2017 - 10:43 AM, said:

I'd argue that 2LRM 20's with or without artemis are almost never worth it. Even if all you have is 2 hardpoints, two a+15s are better. The possible exception being on the quirked Stalker, but I wouldn't do that either for ethical reasons.

PGI buffed LRM20s awhile ago so they have the same spread as an LRM15 does. Still, I prefer SRMs or just not using missiles at all, but LRM20s are just as viable as LRM15s now a days.

[Tier5 Kerensky]

If I want to win, I can do it most likely in Archer 5W with 9xLRM 5 and top XL engine with about 2400 missiles.

I got close to 300 games with it, w/l ratio of 1.14 and average damage 340. And except for short attempts of using streak2 or various SRMs, I have run it with same config. The latter two didnd't work but it's because I have mainly two XL engines and as I have no other IS mechs I haven't bothered to buy standard engines.

With for example Dire Wolwes I do about the same damage but with 0.73 ratio, and I have about 800 games with two variants.

My overall W/L ratio is 0.83, over 5600 fights. Similarlly my W/L rate is better with Mad Dogs too but after getting Archer, I've less played Mad Dogs as LRM boths and tried different configs with them, and even before I changed their configs every now and then so their stats are more diluted.


My FPS while playing for example Fallout 4 can be within 30-40 with drops to 20 on bad areas specially when high, but my FPS in MWO is pretty constant 15-18 because I have an old computer and this game is so CPU bound and can only use two cores.

I think it affects my performance quite a lot, as for example in WoT I can win about 50% of time, except some less in tier X. Granted there are bot accounts in WoT inflating the numbers.


As for LRM boats I'm tempted try to and find something better than Archer, not that Archer is by any means bad, it's just not best. Preferrebly clan but IS is okay too.

Mayby Cyclops for being much heavier and still having 7 missile hardpoints, as it could carry bigger launcher with artemis and even pack tag. WIth Archer 5W it sucks that in order to target anyone yourself, you need to expose first those silly ears people always notice, and still continue forward to expose most of your mech as the cockpit is so low, and you still have no tag.

Or Stalker which one variant has okay 5 launchers, tag ability but most importantly +15% range to LRMs. Stalkers problem it's so slow, I'm not sure it could work as full LRM boat.

[Leone]

Have you considered the 8 LRM five and 1 Narc variant on the 5W? I find it effective in countering the loss of the tag.

~Leone.

[TooDumbToQuit]

I just went with 8 SRM 4's on the 5W. It is a killer.

I do really like the carry your own Narc idea and I've been trying to use Narc and Tag on a couple of mechs. My "new" policy is to only fire LRMs when the Enemy is Narced or in the open and is being TAGGED.

I hate a running an LRM shooter without a TAG and another weapon. An IS one being worse. On my few LRM Mechs I've been carrying less Ammo making me only shoot at good targets.

[Tier5 Kerensky]

I tried that Archer 5W with narc for some games and it's really difficult, it made me worse as the narc range is so poor I have to get really close to enemies and still I miss with it alot. But worst thing is when I'm trying to narc, I get a lot of damage and thus I end up dying sooner than normally, as normally you also have to expose yourself for targetting and moving around.

I don't know if I try to narc too soo, the good thing is carrying that narc doesn't really hurt firepower as most of the time I end up being heat limited or target (lock) limited anyway. So I will continue to try practicing with it. Narcing really would help with so many launchers. So far I usually get narcs when the enemy team is melting down anyway and the narced targets die within 5-10 seconds anyway.