19 replies to this topic

[naterist]

original post deleted on accident while trying to reply to ash, glitched out or something, ill ask a mod if its undoable.

till then, focus of the thread is what tweaks do you want made to 4.1 for 4.2?

my ideas were (summarized version)

• give invasion its own que and tug of war that moves the startiung postion of the slider for the next phase (think of it as establishing a beachhead)
  
• phases are changed to a drastically shorter time, with 1 being slightly longer so phases start and end at different times each day
  
• make scouting que give buffs for next phase as well, and give both sides the ability to potentially both have all 3 perks simultaneously, also like invasion, scouts arrive first to gether intel before the invasion.
  
• randomize qp maps, and if pgi insists on invasion staying in the tug o war, randomize that as well in there.
  
• change planet capturing so factions with a positive w.l ratio dont disappear (mainly sayin this for the frr)

i forget the rerst, gimme some time to hit up a mod.

Edited by naterist, 18 January 2017 - 07:29 PM.

[naterist]

For number 2, you could adjust it so that winners of the invasion mode que for the previous phase win theyre side a start with 1 victory next mode, 3.3% of the slider. Keepsit relevant, and is justified as them clearing landing zones so less of theyre guys are shot down on planetary entry. Also, by making scouting and invasion mode affect the phase after theyre played, it adds a layer of complexity that RPers and OPs like op great dane can use to add depth for themselves, and gives options for bigger faction wide strategies on how to take the planet, and forces people to consider were they wanna fight.

[AnTi90d]

• I hate the idea of two hours phases. Four hours is the shortest phase I would support.

• Invasion should be separate from the QP queue, but both should have a % effect on the current tug. I think QP should be 3% and Invasion should be 5%.

• I hate the idea of scouting for one phase couting for the next. You can't fight against it, and any scouting wins only affect other people that play when you don't.

• A surrender button would be exploited by the use of alt accounts.

• I disagree that QP modes should be randomized. The new Incursion should be the last and I like the phases starting with Skirmish and then going to Domination. I usually drop, after that, because I despise Conquest and Assault is just a half-developed mode.

Edited by AnTi90d, 18 January 2017 - 01:45 PM.

[naterist]

AnTi90d, on 18 January 2017 - 01:40 PM, said:

• I hate the idea of two hours phases. Four hours is the shortest phase I would support.

• Invasion should be separate from the QP queue, but both should have a % effect on the current tug. I think QP should be 3% and Invasion should be 5%.

• I hate the idea of scouting for one phase couting for the next. You can't fight against it, and any scouting wins only affect other people that play when you don't.

• A surrender button would be exploited by the use of alt accounts.

• I disagree that QP modes should be randomized. The new Incursion should be the last and I like the phases starting with Skirmish and then going to Domination. I usually drop, after that, because I despise Conquest and Assault is just a half-developed mode.

Iya, im iffy about the surrender button as well, however there are people out there who work this games in 12 mans like its an actual carrer, and casuals need something to help them.

However, if they do split invasion from qp, and both ques do the same thing to the slider, what differentiates it enough to justify doing it? As for scouting, i should have made clear that it id only want it to effect the follow up que if the que times were shortened to an hour.

Also, forgot to add

7) make one of the phases slightly longer, than the others, this would make the phase start and end at different times, which is useful because when in the phase you drop matters to the overall effects on the slider. As it is, the last 3 games in a cycle determine the winner, but if people arent generally awake at the end of a phase, all their hard work previously is rendered mute by 3 strong 12 mans at the last momemnt. Varying the times gives everyone chances to play at all segments of the slider.

[Marius Evander]

1. Your number 1 is actually 2 seperate things.

Game maps and modes order (1)

Time (which you referred back to in point 7)

In regards to map/mode randomisation I agree in so far as i feel that would be better than the current segmented tug of war bar.

However the best system would be to use the already existing quickplay map / mode interface set up slightly differently. Individuals queue, a 12 is formed. A 12 is matched from other side, then the interface pops up to choose Mode. Once mode is decided 4 applicable maps are made available to choose from. Once map is decided both teams have 2 minutes to lock in their dropdeck, instead of 1 team having up to 9mins 45 seconds and the othe team having 45 seconds to choose select and lock dropdeck which is rediculous. (Spending a few mins pre game to get things right before your commited to being in game for 30minutes is basic logic). No, buying dropdecks does not solve the problem it just adds to the infuriation, Up to 20 decks are required for the current maps/modes and sometimes turning to grab a drink etc can make you miss that 45 seconds of match b4 your dropped anyway.

2. Terrible idea, blatant no.

Most of the groups dont want to only find and fight each other, most of them disband as soon as they lose to another premade better group. If they want to fight each other they have private lobbies and mrbc. Splitting queues is doing opposite of what 4.1 was trying to address, lack of population and long wait times. You cannot split buckets into seperate maps / modes.

8. I would however like to see fp/cw split between grouped (2+) and solo queing (making 11 an invalid drop size). It failed last time because everyone was playing with a brand new toy called scout mode the 1st week of 3.1 and russ shut it down before anyone had had a chance to get **** of scoutmode and want to return to thier normal fp/cw.

3. Not a fan of the idea. I like scouting how it is except i believe radar jam needs buffing to last longer and moving to between 30 seconds and a minute after scanner sweep so its not wasted while your looking where enemies are on the map but can instead be beneficial when used to engage based on the map data just recieved.

4. I agree with a surrender option however you would need to make it 9 of 12 vote yes to surrender and the ones that vote yes recieve a % cbill reduction for wasting everyones time while the 3 or less who voted no get a cbill bonus. Surrender vote should only be launchable once every 3-5 mins so as not to be spammed.

5. The planetary reward system definately needs changing in this 1 bucket system but i dont believe it should be a priority (the amount of MC is a joke when ÷ by number of people in units required to get names on planets even before 4.1) I would like to see more planets changing hands more often So maybe each person/unit that dropped more than a certain amount / % of wins/losses in each phase should take planets along the border not just top units from overall winning side?

6. Domination is fine as is except for alpine peaks.

7. Attack phases lasting 2.5 or 3.5 hours sounds good to me, tug of war bar adjusted accordingly.

9. More important than anything above for 4.2 FIX THE DAMNED DROPSHIPS BUGS X 2.

1ST BUG, DROPSHIP TRIES TO DROP YOU IN WRONG LOCATION AND HAVE TO WAIT FOR IT TO BE RESET FOR NEXT WAVE OF DROPS FOR IT TO FIX AND DROP YOU AGAIN (this sometimes takes 6% off your mechs health in leg armor)

2ND BUG. DROPSHIP MECH SELECT SCREEN GETS STUCK OPEN AND REFUSES TO DISSAPEAR CAUSING NEED TO RELOG/RELOAD GAME.

[naterist]

Also, a faction bullitin board, for in game, widespread information sharing. New pugs from steam wont take the time to go on the mwo forums or reddit if theyre just there to test run the game and see if they like it, but if we even had a location in game for posting and updating info or leaks, it would make a faction FEEL like a faction. Also, minor descriptions of the houses culture and fighting styles would be cool. and lore thrown in for that battletech feel that is still missing a little bit.

Im realizing i said suggest minor changes, but once i hit brainstorm mode, its like a waterfall that i cant shut off, :3

[Monkey Lover]

game phases should have never been in the game to start with. Anything that makes someone not want to play during some "time" shouldn't be in game.

[naterist]

Monkey Lover, on 18 January 2017 - 06:13 PM, said:

game phases should have never been in the game to start with. Anything that makes someone not want to play during some "time" shouldn't be in game.

Normally id agree with you, but were seeing that this is what works, so shortening phases is my suggestion for finding a balance, because really, in an hour, you can play 1-2, 3 at the outside, games in a phase, so one unit dropping repeatedly can take a planet rather quickly assuming the pugs dont lose to fast, then its less of an overall numbers game, and more of a whos got the better players on atm? At night, IS loyalists with nothing better to do such as myself can slow, or reverse a daytime push from the clans, giving more planet switching, while the average planets controlled shouldnt move as much as it currently does, because clans can take say 12 hours in the day, but is can potentially stay up all night to retake those 12 planets that night. Danes already proven that planet recaptures for IS only happens in oceanic and european phases anyways, so no reason to not make that easier.

[justcallme A S H]

The changes "we" want... Being who exactly?


1a. 2hr cycles means there really isn't a "tug of war". Planet tagging will be too high, essentially more rewards for richard-all effort. Not sure PGI would get onboard with so much free MC being handed out that fast.

1b. Maps certainly need to be randomised, agree there. Eternal QP is just crap when Invasion maps/modes occur fairly rare in some cycles now the dust/hype of 4.1 has settled

2. Agree with others. Nope.

3. There is no real logic in this suggestion. Each phase needs to be individual. New planets, new reasons etc.

4. Absolutely not. Too open to abuse.

5. Nope. All PGI need to do here is make planets/maps even. So FRR can't "disappear", even it won't actually. W/L ratio simply will not work either way. Too much of a complex mechanic to achieve nothing

6. Again absolutely not. The REAL fix for this is to make the Domination circle larger. You make the DZ closer you'll have even more spawn camping... There needs to be advantages to actually using the outside area of the circle etc. Having 1:30 to flank outside a circle and put a devastating swing into a match needs to remain. Close DZ you also loose that ability from teams who might wanna take a risky vs reward calculation. You're essentially making the mode even more crap. As it stands, IMO, Domination should just be removed. Easiest solution right there.

7. Well this makes no sense. Directly contradicts 1a. Plus adds confusion... A cycle is magically longer just because of "effort"?
It's upto an entire faction to put in the effort. The other day IS pulled it BACK from Clan who were 1 tile away from Invasion, got it back to Domination in an hour. That is how a true ToW needs to be, you cannot change that or further issues will result.


I know I sound negative here but most of your suggestions as "we" I cannot support as the don't add much to how 4.1 is currently. While FP4.1 is better than FP3 in terms of search/match time, there are some really big issues that need addressing first that would make it far better.

[naterist]

not sure how but the original post was replaced with my reply to ash, strange. gimme a sec to remedy

[justcallme A S H]

naterist, on 18 January 2017 - 07:20 PM, said:

not sure how but the original post was replaced with my reply to ash, strange. gimme a sec to remedy

It's what happens when you edit an old post after replies to it
The forum software is buggy, been doing it for ages.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 18 January 2017 - 07:24 PM.

[naterist]

thanks, op is edited to reflect what happened.

anyways ash, in response to your point, its fine you disagree, but when i say we, im refering to every point you and any other poster in this thread has made were the words "i agree" appear.

its fine you dont agree with me on everything, you even make some valid points. thats why the threads here, for civil discusion and hopefully, a consensus on the changes we want/need

as for invasion being its own que, what if that que were only open to 12 man teams? that would allow people who like invasion to have their happy place (evil) where they are happy, and gives rampaging 12 mans a release valve were they can go when they get sick of the pug stomps.

the only flaw we would need to address, if people agree with this solution, is the question of if 12 mans should be allowed in the qp maps. there is also the question of que-time for that type of que, however im sure we can think of something for it. as it stands invasion is really lopsided, and giving people the option to seek it out, or avoid it if wanted, seems logical.

possibly opening it up to 10+ groups, or 9+ and reworking the call to arms so it only calls for fillers in invasion que would help allieviate that problem, however teams made up of small groups should NOT be allowed to form, as weve already seen that song and dance, and its not a good one.

[justcallme A S H]

Some of suggestions given I haven't even seen discussed anywhere... I certainly haven't agreed with them.

To improve 4.1 this is where it needs to start


1. Domination needs to be either removed or altered. It's just not enjoyable most of the time. Too many matches are not fun vs the other modes. If it's not removed the domination "zone" needs to be increased by at least 250m radius (500m dia). Perhaps a tad more. Might even need to be 350m / 650m respectively, smaller start is better. Problem is that doesn't really work for NORMAL QP Mode as there are no respawns, hence IMO, just remove it. Faster/easier (zero effort vs mass effort). No need for new maps just for FP.

2a. Player skill. This needs addressing. While the number of players is much higher the quality of them has dropped to T4 QP levels (IMO). It really is that bad since 4.1. There has to be a tutorial, academy for FP (like make torso twisting an actual test for people). Due to low quality of player, now the new'shiny is wearing off - they are starting to give up because they are being flogged way to easily.

2b. Some way to get people onto the TS hubs, units and so on. Right now there is no connection. Wait and see what comes with the new "UI", it's hard to call this one at this stage.

3. Since the "new and shiny" of 4.1 has worn off, many people are getting tired of ETERNAL QP. Maybe make a win worth 5% and not 3.3% might be better to move the bar a bit faster. OR take out the Domination & add that on as Invasion at the other end, that would mean possibility of Invasion sooner. Or turn Dom square into Invasion (simple/easy/done). Either way there needs to be a bit more Invasion maps, QP will (and is) getting stale.

4. Loyalists need SOMETHING STILL. This is a huge one.


Fact is people are pretending there is still "hype" around 4.1. We're ghost dropping as IS now... That tells you all you need to know about population drop off now that people are off holidays and realise FP 4.1 is now just QP with more mechs and bad players get beaten in an area where there isn't a MM.

I mean could go into discussions about putting a MM into FP - But the MM doesn't work properly now with tiers because it's flat out broken. So just applying it to FP won't work either. It would need it's own one or something.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 18 January 2017 - 07:49 PM.

[Carl Vickers]

Biggest thing is loyalists.

There is no reason to be one other than voting and that is pretty much redundant due to 'muh bukkit'.

Rewards need to higher for loyalists and they need to get more goodies.

I think factions being able to hire mercs would be awesome but that would take a bit of work and people to oversee it once the work has been done. Immersion.

Pretty much anything else I can think of is not quick fix and thats what PGI specializes in.

Edited by Carl Vickers, 18 January 2017 - 07:54 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

naterist, on 18 January 2017 - 07:42 PM, said:

as for invasion being its own que, what if that que were only open to 12 man teams? that would allow people who like invasion to have their happy place (evil) where they are happy, and gives rampaging 12 mans a release valve were they can go when they get sick of the pug stomps.

12 mans are rare as hens teeth IMO.

I have not played in a full 12 for at least 4 weeks now. Usually it's anywhere from 4+. People come and go as well, so having a "set" number for some magically different queue won't work either, there just isn't the population. Plus the population is already dropping, I'm sure PGI see's this too if I can pickup on it.

Carl Vickers, on 18 January 2017 - 07:51 PM, said:

Is there an echo in here Ash?

Fixed

[BearFlag]

I see no reason not to randomize the maps or allow selection. While a planetary invasion would have recognizable "phases", a tug-o-war does not. Phases would be a good idea, but when PGI zoomed out from a planet to an abstract 8-planet glob, phases lost their meaning.

Number 4: I think instead of surrender, an auto-victory threshold would work better (and easier to program, no UI work). For example, if it reaches a point where there's a 20 (or whatever) mech spread in kills (not TKs, not ejects, not overheats) then match ends. No penalties. No commander, after all, would continue to drop mechs into a lost battle. This would limit frustration and cut short those ridiculously unbalanced match ups. In the absence of a matchmaker, there's no reason to prolong a blowout match.

Not in favor of deferred, planet-phase-long Scout benefits. But it has some merits. I do think these benefits should be rearranged in order of their importance:
1) Combat ID
2) Jam
3) Sweep (possibly add .5 seconds to sweep for every % point over threshold)

Since we don't see planets any more, I don't see a separate queue for the Invasion mode. Ideally, there would be real planets with some definition and operational phases in their capture. For example,
1) Secure orbit (HPG-like maps)
2) Crack the planet's defenses (Invasion/CA)
3) Establish base of ops (Assault)
4) Advance through hinterland towards objective (Skirmish, Domination, Conquest,low population maps)
5) Seize objective (City maps, Assault?)

[Marius Evander]

I think domination is fine except on alpine peaks =(

Only one i dislike is Skirmish and only that when its a 1 sided stomp its still good when pug vs pug.

Nate read my previous reply about seperate invasion queue for 12 mans it wont work.

queues for solo drop or 2-12 (except 11) has much more chance of helping but even then you will units sync dropping and at worst getting their team split into a 9 man solo dropping and a 3 man in yhe following game.

[Carl Vickers]

I would also like to see the mech id be more useful. It is great that when you have it you can see what mechs the enemy team are in but it needs to happen before you drop. This is so you can select the best mechs to counter the enemies first wave.

For example, most people bring their heaviest mech first, on both teams. What if you knew the enemy was dropping 12 crutchdiaks on the first wave, you could then drop 12 medium brawlers(in IS case Griffins) to counter that. As it stands you can assume(the whole thing of intel is knowledge vs assumption, assumptions more than likely get you killed in the theater of war where actual knowledge allows for hard counters) but have a big potential of cluster flop.

Knowing what mechs the other team has is great but atm is only useful for the second wave as that is where you can select what mech you and the team are dropping for your second wave in counter to what the other team is dropping.

As it stands it is only useful from a how much weight are they bringing which by the time that is useful you already pretty much know what they have left by their first couple of drops.

Edited by Carl Vickers, 18 January 2017 - 08:40 PM.

[naterist]

justcallme A S H, on 18 January 2017 - 07:51 PM, said:

12 mans are rare as hens teeth IMO.

I have not played in a full 12 for at least 4 weeks now. Usually it's anywhere from 4+. People come and go as well, so having a "set" number for some magically different queue won't work either, there just isn't the population. Plus the population is already dropping, I'm sure PGI see's this too if I can pickup on it.



Fixed

i exclusively play in 8-12 mans. and most nights on the frr ts hub theres multiple 12 mans going. im looking at one right now, and theres a second forming up as i type.

moving on

however thats why i changed to say maybe 9mans -12 mans with call to arms filling the rest, as it would help to open up ques a bit more broadly, and gives a useful reason for the call to arms function (a holdover from previous phases), now has a realistic and useful function.

with that mechanic, you can also further flesh out ideas like adding punishments for not following orders, as those pugs will be with 12 mans in a mode that requires teamwork, and would add a place for that, since you are garunteed to be in a functioning, teamwork using game mode with absolutely NO 12 pug teams, were leadership cant be just assumed by an individual clicking the dropcall button. remove the full pug team factor, and you can start hashing out ways to decide who has command in drop (clicking a dropcall button DOES NOT make you in charge in other ques purely because its a pug group most likely, however a que with only large, coordinated groups (and almost always a predetermined dropcaller), allows you to give the players the option to respond to a lack of teamwork, as the decision maker would normally be the group leader, and therefore have the right to reject players he feels dont work with his team. since the current que, and qp maps give the option for people to go solo, they cant add that function without a way to decide who has that kind of authority, and no ones going to listen anyways, as the ques are meant to include them. even fw is MEANT to include them, because they have the ability to que up in it and make a full 12 person team of only pugs. make a que were they are the vast minority, with clearly appointed leaders, and you now have a realistic, and fair, case for adding that functionality.

it also allows qp maps to be a more mellow area, as hopefully the big units will be off fighting each other in invasion. this is a good thing, because as weve seen, people want to play fw, because they think its a cool concept. by making it exclusively for the tryhards, its like your saying your only allowed to access the fun and deeper parts of the game if your willing to work at it like a second job. people dont want to put that kind of effort into a game that they arent sure is fun for them, and as a result, the population drops as they leave, seemingly convinced that the 'good' parts are kept behind a skill wall, which shouldnt be the case. they should come to fw looking to have a fun time, find that fun, THEN decide if they enjoyed themselves enough to come back and really get into that spreadsheet warrior stuff. i realize most of you are asking yourself "depth, in fw?!?!?! lol, nope." but lets be honost, qp is just xbox live multiplayer with a keyboard or joystick setup, and while fw doesnt offer much different besides respawn gameplay, its billited as much more, and if you look at all the guys with faction identities, like mech_the_dane, myself, and many of the people i play with on the frr ts, you can see how important the mode is to us. theres something here that i dont find in quickplay, and the only reason i got were i am, instead of just going back to quickplay after my first few baby seal stomps, is because im a battletech fan. not everyone playing these is one of those, and without a place away from the tryhards, theyll continue to leave, because they dont want to be the best, they just want to have fun. for the pug stompers, they claim is that facing other units is fun. this allows that, solves more than 1 problem at a time (which apparently PGI loves), and adds an extra level of immersion, as it stands to reason that the highest quality units would be fighting to get the beachhead, with the regular military coming in en masse after. another alternativewould be to have the winners of that phases invasion que be the attackers for the next invasion que, however that would work more seamlessly with a shorter phase time, as a unit could spend 1 hour fighting for the ability to attack and make the tags available, and the second hour fighting in the (qp que) main invasion for the tag. people playing then have a simple storyline they follow for invasion, they first fight for the becachhead, then fight the main war.

potentially mc could be changed so those that successfully "get a beachhead on planet" would get paid more mc per person who participated (as they did the heavy work), and you can open it up again to ALL pugs who participated, and give them like, 1 mc per qp cue won.

the making it count for later is an idea that occured from listening to people say that invasion should be in the front since it feels like your establishing a beach-head. you could just as easily make qp effect the future and have invasion for that phase, or have both effect the same phase. its just an idea that i thought was cool.

(this seems ramble-ey because it is. i just had to type till i felt i explained it correctly.)

[naterist]

what if respawns were adjusted so you dont respawn until 4 people are dead, then it brings the 4 back all at once, so they cant focus fire, and if its 3 vets and 1 pug respawning together, itll help the pug know what to do, as 4 vets will be there for him to follow, which is a skill people learn long before anything else, even the press r advice, they hear to follow the group advice right off the bat though, so thatll assist them, and having 4 people spawning together helps to hinder spawn camping, as your no longer x amount v 1, its now x amount v 4, which isnt great odds if its 12 v 4, but its much better odds and could in many cases buy the time the spawncampees the time to organize, as walking into the dropzone to farm 1 guy is no longer viable. if a person dc's, or another kill isnt made in 3 minutes, then just drop them, as thatll help to stop an afk from holding up the spawning, and people on the same team should be dying together at about the same time.