37 replies to this topic

[MW Waldorf Statler]

Knights against Longbows ...Katanas against Grant Tanks ...better 8t for Weaponsystems and Heatsinks

[Johnny Z]

RestosIII, on 18 January 2017 - 03:56 PM, said:

Unless an Atlas has the ability to pick up a light mech and use it as a melee weapon, no thanks.

Hilarious.

Edited by Johnny Z, 19 January 2017 - 03:56 AM.

[TWIAFU]

I Zeratul I, on 19 January 2017 - 12:24 AM, said:

How would jenners or ravens engage in melee combat?

Imagine a T-Rex taking up the sport of boxing.

Is it going to work out?

Ramming and/or kicking.

[Johnny Z]

Melee?



I'm not sure why but this movie clip manages to cover all bad ideas really well.

Edited by Johnny Z, 19 January 2017 - 04:17 AM.

[WolvesX]

I would love, love, love melee.

[Lily from animove]

Old MW4 Ranger, on 19 January 2017 - 03:32 AM, said:

Knights against Longbows ...Katanas against Grant Tanks ...better 8t for Weaponsystems and Heatsinks

I need a NVA U then to pirate in space like a clanner

[SuperFunkTron]

I think the best way to really consider the viability of this is to find another game in which this actually works well and plays fairly. The most similar game that comes to my head is Titan Fall since it has mech vs mech melee. Rather than lock the mechs into a sequence though, I think that allowing the victim of the melee to still be able to fire its weapons or even attempt to block/redirect/minimize the attack (if the receiving mech has arms appropriate for the task). The melee doesn't have to be easy or guaranteed by any means, but rather a viable attack option that requires some out of practice and skill to perform effectively.

At the very least, even if you can't necessarily see the the arms ad legs swinging while in the cockpit, it would be a great use for one of those unused cockpit monitors to at least inform you of what actions is being performed (right/left kick/punch). And if the person performing the action is worried about how it looks, they should just ask a friend watching in awe how bad *** they look when they pull it off.

In all honesty, I'd prefer to see melee implemented before future tech, but realistically its something we have to hope for after future tech's release. I would really like to see Clan and IS mechs return closer to their original values with the IS's superior melee (Clan frowns upon melee) and close quarter abilities being the justification for the Clan's stronger weapons systems.

[C E Dwyer]

I Zeratul I, on 19 January 2017 - 12:24 AM, said:

How would jenners or ravens engage in melee combat?

Imagine a T-Rex taking up the sport of boxing.

Is it going to work out?

Drop kick Darvin is a thing in Battle Tech, only I think he piloted a Griffin

[Maker L106]

Realistically Melee is needed here IMO. You won't see it likely but it would be a great addition to the game depending on how its added. Now that said I believe all the mechs should (via lore) have access to SOME kind of melee. As much as an Axman packing the namesake? probably not. But that's a fight you need to think of.

The only issue I can see with melee is it being MASSIVELY broken in favor of the attacker if they're any good at what they do. Heatless medium to high damage per hit /w all other weapons active? Even if it costs 8T on a light / medium that's still a fat whack to deal with. Imagine assaults as well, no more face hugging. Or at least face hugging is a one way ticket to an oblong box for one of the two doing it because of the additional theoretical alpha damage. Alpha strike + melee /w King Crab is going to wreck something. Same for the Kodiak etc:.

This however is a perplexing problem. How is melee damage judged? That's what I worry about the most. It's one thing to go around the corner and see an atlas / kodiak ready to slap you, it's another for that to LITTERALLY be what happens. even if it is only 1/5th / 1/10th of the mechs weight/ in the melee is that enough, to much? What would the effects of being struck be? Cockpit shake for sure. I mean that's a lot of stuff to consider.

[SuperFunkTron]

Maker L106, on 19 January 2017 - 06:59 AM, said:

Realistically Melee is needed here IMO. You won't see it likely but it would be a great addition to the game depending on how its added. Now that said I believe all the mechs should (via lore) have access to SOME kind of melee. As much as an Axman packing the namesake? probably not. But that's a fight you need to think of.

The only issue I can see with melee is it being MASSIVELY broken in favor of the attacker if they're any good at what they do. Heatless medium to high damage per hit /w all other weapons active? Even if it costs 8T on a light / medium that's still a fat whack to deal with. Imagine assaults as well, no more face hugging. Or at least face hugging is a one way ticket to an oblong box for one of the two doing it because of the additional theoretical alpha damage. Alpha strike + melee /w King Crab is going to wreck something. Same for the Kodiak etc:.

This however is a perplexing problem. How is melee damage judged? That's what I worry about the most. It's one thing to go around the corner and see an atlas / kodiak ready to slap you, it's another for that to LITTERALLY be what happens. even if it is only 1/5th / 1/10th of the mechs weight/ in the melee is that enough, to much? What would the effects of being struck be? Cockpit shake for sure. I mean that's a lot of stuff to consider.

It would open up a whole new dynamic and set of priorities, encouraging the removal of arms as a viable and potentially necessary option. Before weapons are even considered, the simpler punches, kicks, and charges should be cleanly implemented. I don't recall what fraction of mech's weight they used to calculate the damage, but the fact that it would take some damage by delivering it is a reasonable trade off, not to mention its likely use as a stall tactic to help friendly mechs get into better firing position would also be useful. IF they wanted to make it available to clan mechs as well, it should come with a c-bill penalty since they were generally against melee combat, but allow it to exist for the clanners who are desperate or honorless . All in all, with the addition of this, I'd want to see the clan mechs receive some sort of buff as they would likely get very little use out of melee other than a new thing to be worried about.

[WolvesX]

It could be a very simple punch anniation or something, nothing complicated for the start.

Just a key for punching.

[razenWing]

Lots of people are looking at melee like it's a thing that never existed or expect your robot to all of a sudden do some Street Fighter combos.

I agree in that context, melee is a terrible idea. But no one is saying that Kung Fu should be incorporate just because melee is in the game. Just do something similar to CoD, a simple swipe across the screen. Nothing complicated, done.

[Steve Pryde]

Titanfall (2) has melee combat with fists and swords and it feels awesome gameplay-wise. So why not in MWO?

[1453 R]

razenWing, on 19 January 2017 - 11:30 AM, said:

Lots of people are looking at melee like it's a thing that never existed or expect your robot to all of a sudden do some Street Fighter combos.

I agree in that context, melee is a terrible idea. But no one is saying that Kung Fu should be incorporate just because melee is in the game. Just do something similar to CoD, a simple swipe across the screen. Nothing complicated, done.

This is a far more complicated task than it sounds.

For one, Piranha has confirmed that their current animation rigs for existing 'Mechs aren't capable of the range of motion required for this sort of "throw a right cross!" functionality. The shoulder joint doesn't have enough flex; the arm can't fully extend and it can't cross the torso, either. The best you could hope for, insofar as retrofitting existing 'Mechs with melee capability goes, would be an awkward sort of Rock 'Em Sock 'Em jab where the whole thing just kinda twists up at the shoulder. You'd get clipping and awkwardness galore.

The only melee option that doesn't involve, basically, a ground-up redesign of all existing 'Mechs are introducing 'Mechs with specific melee weapons - your Axeman or Hatchetman, the Berserker, things like that - and developing them on new animation rigs that allows them to use the single known-variable melee weapon for an attack. This would be a very specialty project, the axe/hammer/sword/whatever would likely be permanently fixed to the 'Mech, and it'd be the only melee we get in this game.

Even if it weren't...can you imagine how tricky it'd be to try and land even a simple "swipe the screen" melee attack? in order to feel like a proper BattleMech melee strike it'd need weight, heft, wind-up and overswing, all those things that make an attack feel like it weighs ten tons...and that all means the other guy sees it coming from last year and just gets out of the way. The whole "punt the Locust!" thing everyone wants would be massively difficult and down to, honestly, mostly luck. Any half-decent Locust is just going to get out of the way before your big, heavy, BattleTech-y swing gets there.

Great idea in theory, very hard to execute in practice. Which is probably why we don't have melee.

[S 0 L E N Y A]

I would love to see it, but I would settle for better collision damage and (potential) knock down, or even just effective death from above.

[Maker L106]

razenWing, on 19 January 2017 - 11:30 AM, said:

Lots of people are looking at melee like it's a thing that never existed or expect your robot to all of a sudden do some Street Fighter combos.

I agree in that context, melee is a terrible idea. But no one is saying that Kung Fu should be incorporate just because melee is in the game. Just do something similar to CoD, a simple swipe across the screen. Nothing complicated, done.

No...
just no.
This is the kind of implementation that I'm trying to avoid. I want the melee to be significant and deliberate, a "quick swipe" as you describe is the absolute bottom tier of melee you can have. It is not worth the effort to implement, yes I, a melee supporter, said exactly that.

The mechs deserve better than that as do those rapidly placing use on them. Imagine a melee that's a "quick swipe" that does X damage, that's going to be hard to balance AND hard to make useful / balanced without it being massively overpowered or completely ignored.

Consider that factors should play a role in this, Airborne during melee? (DFA?) Grounded, Part of the mech that connects, part of the mech that actually attacks. Kick / Punch / etc: Do JJ's effect damage? does speed affect damage? I'd seriously hope So. An Atlas face punching me at full speed should do more than a basic swing, same is true especially for faster mechs, Shadow Cat for example, I'd use a basic melee damage that was adjusted with a core value compared to the current speed of the mech as its running. Meaning you not only have to get the timing of the hit for maximum effect, if you get body blocked, stepped into or strait up screw up your timing your not hitting as hard.

The depth this allows ALONE would make melee worth it. But it has to be taken to a Mechwarrior level, none of this "cod version is fine"

If these are not considered, I would whole heartedly never care if melee were introduced because it would be introduced incorrectly. (Note I'm not a TT guy, i know nothing about that version of MW)

Charging mad cat about to kick my **** in seems a lot more terrifying then walking up on one who goes "punt".

[Ted Wayz]

I will say it for the millionth time, melee module. Module with cooldown time which allows a mech to perform melee attack. Damage 1 pt per 10 tons.

Specific mechs with melee backgrounds (Hatchetman) 1 pt damage per 5 tons.

Done.

[SuperFunkTron]

1453 R, on 19 January 2017 - 02:01 PM, said:

This is a far more complicated task than it sounds.

For one, Piranha has confirmed that their current animation rigs for existing 'Mechs aren't capable of the range of motion required for this sort of "throw a right cross!" functionality. The shoulder joint doesn't have enough flex; the arm can't fully extend and it can't cross the torso, either. The best you could hope for, insofar as retrofitting existing 'Mechs with melee capability goes, would be an awkward sort of Rock 'Em Sock 'Em jab where the whole thing just kinda twists up at the shoulder. You'd get clipping and awkwardness galore.

The only melee option that doesn't involve, basically, a ground-up redesign of all existing 'Mechs are introducing 'Mechs with specific melee weapons - your Axeman or Hatchetman, the Berserker, things like that - and developing them on new animation rigs that allows them to use the single known-variable melee weapon for an attack. This would be a very specialty project, the axe/hammer/sword/whatever would likely be permanently fixed to the 'Mech, and it'd be the only melee we get in this game.

Even if it weren't...can you imagine how tricky it'd be to try and land even a simple "swipe the screen" melee attack? in order to feel like a proper BattleMech melee strike it'd need weight, heft, wind-up and overswing, all those things that make an attack feel like it weighs ten tons...and that all means the other guy sees it coming from last year and just gets out of the way. The whole "punt the Locust!" thing everyone wants would be massively difficult and down to, honestly, mostly luck. Any half-decent Locust is just going to get out of the way before your big, heavy, BattleTech-y swing gets there.

Great idea in theory, very hard to execute in practice. Which is probably why we don't have melee.

It looks like we better start nagging now to get it into MW5!