54 replies to this topic

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

The main deterrent to equipping single heat sinks are the engine sink handicap.

Single heat sinks face a 10 ton deficit in comparison to double heat sinks, in terms of the 10 maximum sinks in the engine. (The 10 maximum double heat sinks in the engine dissipate twice the amount of heat as 10 single heat sinks in the engine, which means singles would need 10 additional tons of sinks to match 10 engine double sinks...)

Inner sphere standard engines have some advantages in contrast to XL engines which make them viable. Unfortunately single heat sinks have no compelling advantages over double heat sinks and so no one ever uses single heat sinks, unless they can't afford doubles.

Should single heat sinks be buffed and given advantages to make them more viable?

Or are single heat sinks working as intended -- designed to be useless equipment no one ever uses?

[Deathlike]

Currently SHS apply .11 heat dissipation in the engine, and .12 for all external ones. It could actually be argued that this broken and wrong... (and I'm not talking about TT values, because that's totally irrelevant for a video game) in that external SHS being more powerful than internal (like, who does this?).

So, it's not exactly double as currently constituted.

Buffs to SHS need to happen regardless.

[FupDup]

I think that the easiest/best solution would be to equalize engine SHS to match engine DHS. This means that external SHS will have to go back down to just 1.0x, though, so that DHS aren't completely obsolete on energy build (because critslots are at a premium).

The biggest reason that SHS suck is because DHS get a free 10 tons of heatsinks in the engine.

Edited by FupDup, 29 November 2016 - 01:23 PM.

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

Deathlike, on 29 November 2016 - 01:20 PM, said:

Currently SHS apply .11 heat dissipation in the engine, and .12 for all external ones. It could actually be argued that this broken and wrong... (and I'm not talking about TT values, because that's totally irrelevant for a video game) in that external SHS being more powerful than internal (like, who does this?).

So, it's not exactly double as currently constituted.

Buffs to SHS need to happen regardless.

Uh. Last I checked with doubles equipped the 10 maximum default heat sinks in the engine dissipate double heat at a rate of .2 by your scaling.

Which means single heat sinks always start out at near to a 10 ton deficit which makes them unfeasible.

Edited by I Zeratul I, 29 November 2016 - 01:23 PM.

[Deathlike]

I Zeratul I, on 29 November 2016 - 01:22 PM, said:

Uh. Last I checked with doubles equipped the 10 maximum default heat sinks in the engine dissipate double heat at a rate of .2 by your scaling.

Which means single heat sinks always start out at near to a 10 ton deficit which makes them unfeasible.

It's a little less as I suggest you check smurfys. I'm not saying DHS in the engine aren't superior or anything - but the values have changed.

[blood4blood]

And here I was expecting...


Single heat sinks. They were great, they should be great, they could be great - let's make them great again!

Heat sinks? You want heat sinks? I've got heat sinks, great heat sinks, lots of heat sinks, more heat sinks than you've ever seen, and you know what?

I'll tell you what! These are great heat sinks! Double heat sinks! Triple heat sinks! So many heat sinks, but the single heat sinks fell behind. They're not with us, folks. They can't keep up. They need help. We can help them. We can make them great again. And you know what else? I've got a plan - a great plan - the BEST plan - to make single heat sinks so great they pay for themselves!

But I can't share it, no, not right now - I wouldn't want to spoil it. But believe me - BELIEVE me - I know how to make single heat sinks great again!



/politicalsarcasmoff.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Single heatsinks were never great. Unless, that is, you prefer matches where everyone closes to brawling range, fires a single salvo, and has a big staring contest while everyone waits to cool down.

Circle of death duels? No, back in closed beta it was the "Circle of waiting".

[JediPanther]

The only mechs that get improved by staying with shs are the locust and urbie because forced heat sinks sucks on all 20 ton mechs but no one ever uses light mechs especially a 20 ton one.

UM-R63 Armored

LCT-1V LBX LOL

[QuantumButler]

Okay so the reason SHS were never really viable in MWO is because their heat dissipation rate was originally based on translating their dissipation rate in TT directly to a real time setting, IE: 1 HS sinks 1 heat over 10 seconds [as TT turns are 10 seconds], trouble is MWO weapons typically fire about 3 times faster than actual TT weapons do, so you needed to boat way more of them and some guns just were not viable in MWO at all until DHSes arrived. [Back in the day, a common Atlas build was 4 small lasers, a gauss rifle, and 3 srm6s, with all the rest of the tonnage going into heatsinks].

So the heat issues of MWO stem from core design choices, that being said, I think giving both SHS and DHS engine heatsinks the same efficiency of being truly double would make there be actual reasons to not always use doubles; Builds that only use the engine sinks anyway wouldn't need to pay the 1.5 million cbill fun tax, and non-crit slot limited builds could feasibly stick with singles instead.

Especially if they also made some other changes to DHS and SHS values [Such as possibility give extra SHSes beyond the engine 10 a larger increase in your heat capacity, while doubles have less increased heat cap but dramatically faster heat dissipation, or somesuch.]

Assuming of course they actually want DHSes not to be a straight upgrade in this game and effectively tacking at least 1.5 million extra onto the cost on any mech you buy that doesn't come stock with dubs before you can actually use it in any real way.

[cazidin]

blood4blood, on 29 November 2016 - 01:39 PM, said:

And here I was expecting...


Single heat sinks. They were great, they should be great, they could be great - let's make them great again!

Heat sinks? You want heat sinks? I've got heat sinks, great heat sinks, lots of heat sinks, more heat sinks than you've ever seen, and you know what?

I'll tell you what! These are great heat sinks! Double heat sinks! Triple heat sinks! So many heat sinks, but the single heat sinks fell behind. They're not with us, folks. They can't keep up. They need help. We can help them. We can make them great again. And you know what else? I've got a plan - a great plan - the BEST plan - to make single heat sinks so great they pay for themselves!

But I can't share it, no, not right now - I wouldn't want to spoil it. But believe me - BELIEVE me - I know how to make single heat sinks great again!



/politicalsarcasmoff.

That's a terrible Trump, not like mine. No. I'm a great comedian, very funny, one of the brightest there is and *I* will make PGI fix Single Heat Sinks AND the Command Console! We're going to build a wall, a huge space-wall in space. It'll be made by some of the best space-engineers in the Inner Sphere, bigstarly. Absolutely bigstarly.

[Davers]

PGI never intended SHS to be viable. I'm not sure what kind of space magic would be needed to make them competitive with DHS.

[FupDup]

Davers, on 29 November 2016 - 03:23 PM, said:

PGI never intended SHS to be viable. I'm not sure what kind of space magic would be needed to make them competitive with DHS.

A simple XML edit, actually.

[Davers]

FupDup, on 29 November 2016 - 04:09 PM, said:

A simple XML edit, actually.

Guess we'd have to give Clanners .5 ton CSHS to keep it fair then.

[FupDup]

Davers, on 29 November 2016 - 04:12 PM, said:

Guess we'd have to give Clanners .5 ton CSHS to keep it fair then.

Balancing it on the Clan side is quite a bit harder than the IS side...but the latter at least be considered low-hanging fruit from a difficulty standpoint.

[Lyoto Machida]

Davers, on 29 November 2016 - 04:12 PM, said:

Guess we'd have to give Clanners .5 ton CSHS to keep it fair then.

Does such a thing even exist? Or is it some outdated tech like CACs that shouldn't even be in this game?

[ScarecrowES]

We discussed a bit when the ED PTS was going on about how to improve SHS without making them the strictly superior option in most cases. DHS need to be straight up better in 90% of cases. However, there were ways - as we discovered - of adding utility to SHS that would make choosing between SHS and DHS in some applications actually something to consider.

Probably the best overall way we talked about was to have SHS have a slight edge in cooling efficiency over DHS. By that, I mean that DHS would have twice the heat capacity as SHS, but SHS would dissipate slightly more heat than an equivalent number of DHS in the same amount of time. Using core TT numbers for the sake of clarity, that goes something like this...

10 DHS has a capacity of 20 heat points, and dissipates a total of 2 heat a second (20 points over 10 seconds). 10 SHS would have the base 10 heat capacity, but would dissipate at a rate of slightly over 2 heat per second (based on factors of balance)... something like 2.4 heat per second (24 points over 10 seconds). SHS would normally only dissipate 1 point of heat per second per sink, so this is more than double the usual rate.

With DHS, you are able to use more heat in a given amount of time, due to the higher capacity, but it dissipates slightly more slowly. This gives you a bit more opportunity to fire a larger volume of firepower in a given amount of time.

With SHS, you lack the capacity DHS affords you, but you recover heat more quickly, which means your small capacity cycles very fast... great if you have extremely low heat needs or focus more on DPS than raw output.

For most situations, the capacity DHS affords you is the better option. However, in certain cases, SHS might be more attractive. Many lights would find SHS to be a better option, and the traditional Awesome with 3xPPC might actually be able to make use of SHS to great effect.

Edited by ScarecrowES, 29 November 2016 - 04:32 PM.

[Davers]

Lyoto Machida, on 29 November 2016 - 04:26 PM, said:

Does such a thing even exist? Or is it some outdated tech like CACs that shouldn't even be in this game?

I think they actually do exist in lore, but they have the same stats as IS SHS.

[DrxAbstract]

AS7-RS

What's that you say, XL? I can't hear you over the sound of my speed-wubbing!

[a gaijin]

Single HS are great! But you have to have them in your legs and be standing in a pool of water.

In all honesty though if I, Star Commander Horse, was the MWO Master Of Rules, I would also make heat sinks in the legs function like you were standing in water on all snow maps.

[BumbleBee]

I'd rather see heat capacity increases removed from double heatsinks. Keep them for the singles though.

Faster heat dissipation vs firing more in a burst.

It wont be best for most configs, but at least it'll be good for some