78 replies to this topic

[Reno Blade]

some more details (will be updated later as graphs)

PPC class:
using a dynamic direct-to-splash ratio between 50-90% depending on optimum ranges should give best results reducint PPFLD further.

This should give each PPC type a good place in the overall game balance (reducing the amount of PPFLD without making PPCs useless) and give them a unique damage profile.

Damage profiles per range (direct + splash +splash)

Minimum range <90m:
PPC 0 +1+1
ERPPC 0+5+5
CERPPC 3+6+6
SNPPC 10+0+0
Heavy PPC 0+2+2
Light PPC 0+0+0

short range 91-240m
PPC 4+3+3
ERPPC 2+4+4
CERPPC 5+5+5
SNPPC 8+1+1
Heavy PPC 5+5+5
Light PPC 3+1+1 (constant ratio)

medium range 241-450m
PPC 8+1+1
ERPPC 6+2+2
CERPPC 7+4+4
SNPPC 4+3+3
Heavy PPC 7+4+4
Light PPC 3+1+1 (constant ratio)

long range 451-560m
PPC 8 +1+1 (best range)
ERPPC 10+0+0 (best range)
CERPPC 10+2.5+2.5 (good range)
SNPPC 2+4+4 (linear damage drop past optimum range)
Heavy PPC 10+2.5+2.5 (good range)
Light PPC 3+1+1 (constant ratio)

extreme range 561-810m and above
PPC 6+2+2 (linear damage drop past optimum range)
ERPPC 10+0+0 (best range)
CERPPC 12+1.5+1.5 (best range)
SNPPC 0+0+0 (past optimum range)
Heavy PPC 12+1.5+1.5 (linear damage drop past optimum range)
Light PPC 3+1+1 (linear damage drop past optimum range)

So the ERPPCs and Heavy PPC will have highest direct damage at optimal range, while the other PPCs have more splash depending on range.
Light PPCs have constant ratio for all ranges, so they would be better than PPC/ERPPC in shorter ranges and about equal at long range, but ERPPC/HPPC have the advantage at the longrange direct damage.
And SN PPCs provide the best damage at shotgun range with good overall damage at short-mid range.

[Razorfish]

Reno Blade, on 20 January 2017 - 03:04 AM, said:

GOALS

D.) Increase performance of low hard point variants vs boats

This more than anything causes imbalance in this game, specifically laser boats.

[Reno Blade]

Adding the PPC splash graphs.

I've tried to make each PPC unique and make HPPC a mix of multiple profiles that is worth taking over combining any of the other PPCs (e.g. LPPCs with PPCs).

PPC / LPPC


ERPPC / SNPPC


CERPPC / HPPC


PPCs are great for mid-long range and have 0 dmg min range
LPPCs have constant ratio and 0 dmg min range (so they are less efficient on mid-long range)
ERPPCs have highest direct damage (100%) on long-extreme only and have high splash on shorter range
CERPPCs is using increasing direct damage, but has good averages
HPPCs have some splash at min range, but get high direct damage overall (more than combinations of other types)
SNPPCs start with high direct damage but drop off quickly and also have a shorter range and damage drop

Edited by Reno Blade, 30 May 2017 - 03:01 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

Reno Blade, on 30 May 2017 - 02:57 PM, said:

Adding the PPC splash graphs.

I've tried to make each PPC unique and make HPPC a mix of multiple profiles that is worth taking over combining any of the other PPCs (e.g. LPPCs with PPCs).

PPC / LPPC


ERPPC / SNPPC


CERPPC / HPPC


PPCs are great for mid-long range and have 0 dmg min range
LPPCs have constant ratio and 0 dmg min range (so they are less efficient on mid-long range)
ERPPCs have highest direct damage (100%) on long-extreme only and have high splash on shorter range
CERPPCs is using increasing direct damage, but has good averages
HPPCs have some splash at min range, but get high direct damage overall (more than combinations of other types)
SNPPCs start with high direct damage but drop off quickly and also have a shorter range and damage drop

Multiple slopes
when PGI could pull that off we could have nice things

[Reno Blade]

UPDATED original post 2017-05-31:
- Changed Energy values
- Added Skill tree section
- Updated Weapon specific values and goals
- Added all details added in later posts (e.g. PPC splash graphs)

also updated the Boating examples with 25% cooldown increase at the end.

Laser values updated - now including Pulse laser "DPS" stats.

[Reno Blade]

UPDATED 2017-06-10:
- Updated laser values (less burn time, less heat for some clan lasers)
- Updated the Gauss values (added dmg and heat changes)
- Added graphs for PPC splash if using constant ratios

Laser updates (changes underlined):

SL 2.0s cd, 1.0s beam - 3dmg, 1.2 heat
erSL 2.5s cd, 1.2s beam - 3dmg, 2.2 heat
ML 3.0s cd, 1.2s beam - 5dmg, 3.6 heat
erML 3.5s cd, 1.4s beam - 5dmg, 4.6 heat
LL 4.0s cd, 1.4s beam - 8dmg, 6.0 heat
erLL 4.5s cd, 1.6s beam - 8dmg, 7.0 heat

cerSL 2.5s cd, 1.2s beam - 4dmg, 2.8 heat
cerML 3.5s cd, 1.4s beam - 6dmg, 5 heat
cerLL 4.5s cd, 1.6s beam - 9dmg, 8 heat

cHSL 4.0s cd, 1.5s beam - 6dmg, 4 heat
cHML 4.5s cd, 1.7s beam - 10dmg, 8 heat
cHLL 5.0s cd, 1.9s beam - 16dmg, 13 heat

SP, 1.0s cd, 0.6s beam - 1.4dmg, 1 heat
MP 1.5s cd, 0.7s beam - 2.8dmg, 2 heat
LP 2.0s cd, 0.8s beam - 4.5dmg, 3.4 heat

cSP 1.0s cd, 0.8s beam - 1.4dmg, 1.2 heat
cMP 1.5s cd, 0.9s beam - 2.8dmg, 2.4 heat
cLP 2.0s cd, 1.0s beam - 4.5dmg, 4 heat

cMicro 1.0s cd, 0.6s beam, 1dmg, 0.6heat


Gauss updates:

Gauss 15dmg, 3.5s cd, 2.0s charge, 2.0s charge hold, 3heat (+2)
Light Gauss 10dmg(+2), 3.0s cd, 1.5s charge, 1.5s charge hold, 2heat (+1)
Heavy Gauss 25dmg, 4.0s cd, 2.5s charge, 2.5s charge hold, 4heat (+3)



PPC updates:
If using constant ratios, my suggestion would be this:



That way you get more total damage from HPPC and still can combine quite nicely the LPPC with the other types and also not making multiple LPPCs stronger than the other types (considering 2x LPPC would be 6+2+2 and normal PPC would be 8+1+1).

[Reno Blade]

Updated 2017-06-24:
- Added excel table with all weapon stats and dps stats with the proposed changes as outlined in this thread

Ballistics


Energy


Missiles (IS)


Missiles (Clan)

[Reno Blade]

Another take with new values after a lot of feedback in multiple threads.


Ballistics
- fixed some cooldowns to better balance smaller/dps weapons against bigger weapons
- increased burst counts/charge times



Energy
- reduced some heat, but also some damage/cd
- tweaked laser classes again to increase pulse dps/dph stats
- Pulse are only lasers below 1.0s duration and below 2.0s cooldown
- Heavy Lasers have higher stats than ER lasers, but keep the longer burn and shorter range
- only LPPC/ERPPC without splash, but with higher heat than the other PPCs.



Missiles (IS)
- slight reduction in cooldowns
- reduction in stream durations from previous values
- increase in LRM and MRM velocities


Missiles (Clan)
- slight reduction in cooldowns
- reduction in stream durations from previous values
- increase in LRM and ATM velocities
- added ATMs for medium/long range for comparison and increased the short/med range of ATMs

[HIGH LORD KIT FAWKS THE WATCHFUL]

I...

I actually really like the changeover for the weapons. Seriously the applications for it mean that values can be modified on an individual, finite basis with greater window for tweaking. Ballistics alone, even my wonderful AC20, I like the changes.

I personally know and work with people who operate 5" cannons onboard warships. 5" cannons reload faster than my ACs and put more rounds down range.

[davoodoo]

Reno Blade, on 20 January 2017 - 06:30 AM, said:

wow trolls.

I guess twitch shooting alpha strikes is more fun than having a sim-like game where you feel like piloting a huge mech instead of playing Call of duty X.

Lets see if there are any real replies commenting the actual goals listed.

Except huge walking tank should actually be able to fire its weapons...

I mean ****, if i were go around making it into more sim like, i would start by dropping pinpoint accuracy.

Edited by davoodoo, 10 July 2017 - 03:46 PM.

[Fluffinator]

What I got out of the original post was "my pc sucks...so please slow the game down to a pace I can keep up with on this 6 year old pc."
Oh and "I only like lasers"

[Reno Blade]

Fluffinator, on 10 July 2017 - 04:55 PM, said:

What I got out of the original post was "my pc sucks...so please slow the game down to a pace I can keep up with on this 6 year old pc."
Oh and "I only like lasers"

pffft lol. maybe 2/10.
try again, maybe reading this time.

Edited by Reno Blade, 11 July 2017 - 12:44 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

THE GOD KING URBIE LORD OF MECHS, on 10 July 2017 - 02:35 PM, said:

I...

I actually really like the changeover for the weapons. Seriously the applications for it mean that values can be modified on an individual, finite basis with greater window for tweaking. Ballistics alone, even my wonderful AC20, I like the changes.

I personally know and work with people who operate 5" cannons onboard warships. 5" cannons reload faster than my ACs and put more rounds down range.

real life vs game mechanics? really not again.... i really would like to play BT with more realism - although you hardly would see a foe - maybe you get a warning that your sensors spotted a volley of LRMs that did rise over the horizon and will obliterate your mech in 5 seconds. Maybe you are lucky and your attemps in hacking on your keyboard while re configurating your ECM to - while deploying hot smoke and chaff and hitting the dirt might work.
Unfortunately all that stuff makes you very very visible for that guy 12km away on a hill - he levels his Gauss Rifle and holes your Mech in no time.
Of course not of those controlls would include mouse aim

Your 5'' is what 12.7cm - when you put the values of the game the AC20 fires a single shell with propellant about 142kg so more the kind of a 8''

[davoodoo]

Karl Streiger, on 11 July 2017 - 01:57 AM, said:

Your 5'' is what 12.7cm - when you put the values of the game the AC20 fires a single shell with propellant about 142kg so more the kind of a 8''

Actually in tt ac20 got 5 shots per ton, so 200kg shells.
Twice the weight of 203mm howitzer shell.

Thats weaponry mounted on battleships.

Edited by davoodoo, 11 July 2017 - 02:18 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

davoodoo, on 11 July 2017 - 02:12 AM, said:

Actually in tt ac20 got 5 shots per ton, so 200kg shells.
Twice the weight of 203mm howitzer shell.

Thats weaponry mounted on battleships.

well tt is a different story (a complete different one)- its just damage over time - could as well be 3 155mm shells, or 8x105mm or 49 60mm shells.... however non of them will magical stop working - and of course a multi bullet burst should be able to deal dynamic damage on multiple hitzones instead a 0-1 chunk of damage

[Reno Blade]

Updating the values with a stronger focus on the Clan vs IS balance.

The whole table can also be found directly on Google docs for better access:
https://docs.google....UXElpK4lnCQd_M/

Overall Balance of Clans compared to IS:
Advantages
+ More Range
+ More DMG
+ Less Slots (smaller sizes) (unchangeable)
+ Less Weight (lower tonnage) (unchangeable)
Downsides
- More Heat
- More Cooldown (longer)
- More Duration (longer)
- Less Ammo / ton (~120dmg/ton vs ~180/ton)

Claners are better Mechwarriors, so their skill will compensate for more difficult weapon handling (longer duration and higher heat)
Cooldown + Duration and heat balance out the Range and DMG advantage overall
Ammo balances out the Size and Tonnage advantage of ammo-based weapon


Overall Weapon concepts:

Spoiler

- ACs have bursts with medium cd and low heat (heat lowered, cd increased, velocity increased)
- LBX still with lowest heat of all ACs
- UACs have burst with longer cooldowns than ACs and more heat than ACs
- Gauss have long cooldown and increased charge with additional heat (reduces synergy of the perfect mix with Lasers)

- STD Laser have medium stats and low heat (good sustained)
- ER Laser have higher heat, longer range, longer cd and longer beam than STD Laser (sniper trading with low dps)
- Heavy Laser have the highest cd and duration (burst weapon)
- Pulse Lasers have very short cd and low damage per shot, but high dps and low duration (dps weapon)

PPCs have different splash and cd depending on size.
- LPPC have no splash and medium cd, medium velocity
- ERPPC have no splash, but long cd and high range and velocity
- PPC, SNPPC, HPPC have better heat and 2 dmg is splash
- CERPPC has the longest cd

Missile volleys for all missiles with Clans having longer duration than IS
- LRMs have long cooldowns to emphasize the support role that should be supported by other weapons, velocity increased.
- SRMs and SSRMs both have cd and ammo difference between IS and Clans
- MRMs have long cooldown and medium velocity (both increased)
- ATMs have more distinct cooldowns (4-7s from small to large launcher) and better range brackets

Ghost Heat Changes:
On Top of that, there should be smaller changes to GH until we get something better:
- Med+Large Lasers share the same GH group
- Large lasers max increased to 3

This is directly aimed to reduce laser vomit while at the same time increasing the build options (especially for combination of larges)

Images of the Weapon groups with background colors from low(red) to high (green) to compare weapon stats
Changes have different font color:
Buffs = Blue font
Nerfs = Red font

https://docs.google....UXElpK4lnCQd_M/

Energy:


Ballistics:


Missiles (IS):


Missiles (Clan):

Edited by Reno Blade, 09 June 2018 - 08:27 AM.

[Reno Blade]

A quick fix for Ghost Heat & Energy Draw that will make the whole thing feel much smoother:

-> The penalty heat will be added over 10 seconds.

What it does?

You can fire your 6x PPC or 2x UAC20 without a heat spike
Over the next 10s, you will constantly generate extra heat instead of the spike on shot.
This will reduce your dps over time and might even push you to shut down, but you can choose to use different strenghts of group fire without feeling pushed into a black/white decision when building the mech.
At the same time, it will be more performant if you fire smaller groups of weapons to stay "save".

This would work better with Energy Draw than with Ghost Heat, as GH is a binary check in 0.5 sec window, while Energy Draw has a linear energy regeneration.

Edited by Reno Blade, 17 June 2018 - 12:32 PM.

[Sir Immortal Shadow]

Clit Beastwood, on 20 January 2017 - 08:08 AM, said:

I acknowledge your attempt to preemptively dismiss any replies you don't agree with, but you need to learn to accept that it's going to happen. Your ideas are not really new and they aren't conducive to a f2p game that so desperately needs to attract the FPS crowd to remain business-viable.

Clit Beastwood, on 20 January 2017 - 09:45 AM, said:

The problem is, it would alienate a large % of the playerbase. You can either have a game that is amazing for a small % of players, or a game that is ok for a large % of players. Think of it from the business perspective - F2P games require constant to survive. They have to cater to the masses.

I'm not saying I agree with the proposed changes, but games that cater to the masses already saturate the market. If taking a less business viable approach is what's necessary to have a more unique and creative experience for gamers who are tired of the same games then that's just the sacrifice I believe should be made. I do believe there is a market for slower paced mech games anyway, especially in a brand as established as Mechwarrior/Battletech. I don't accept the premise that it would only be amazing for a small chunk of players, it would just be amazing for less than the majority of players, which sounds pretty good to me.

Edited by Sir Immortal Shadow, 17 June 2018 - 02:45 PM.

[Reno Blade]

https://docs.google....8UXElpK4lnCQd_M

quick changes to energy values (cd / beam mostly).
The isMLaser is the base with a dps/ton rating of 1.0
- ER lasers are slightly lower,
- Pulse laser are higher

Also dmg/tick is higher for Pulse lasers, but also for Heavy Lasers (due to the nature of these double lasers).