253 replies to this topic

[Kuaron]

A legit point.
I, too, suspect rather little impact of the Clan XL nerf.
But I still wouldn’t judge PGI for not nerfing engine and Mechs at the same time, but to first collect some data of one of the measures.

[Y E O N N E]

Kuaron, on 21 January 2017 - 08:05 PM, said:

A legit point.
I, too, suspect rather little impact of the Clan XL nerf.
But I still wouldn’t judge PGI for not nerfing engine and Mechs at the same time, but to first collect some data of one of the measures.

I don't think anybody is judging them for trying to balance two things at the same time. Rather, it's because as dedicated players of this game who have actually spent far more time learning the ins and outs its game-play than PGI staff, we actually know what it's going to do before the changes hit the server. We don't need to collect data on it. PGI shouldn't need to collect data on it. PGI, in fact, just finished running a year-long tournament which provided them the perfect closed environment to get most of the data they would need to actually balance the game.

What do they do instead?

Nerf one of the two IS heavies that actually showed up and held its own against the Clan options in that very same tournament while essentially leaving the Clan option untouched. Neat.

Edit: and mind you, this is after indirectly, but significantly, nerfing the WHM by increasing the heat on all 5-class ACs by half a point.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 21 January 2017 - 08:29 PM.

[Kuaron]

So what would you rather have them do?

[Deathlike]

Kuaron, on 21 January 2017 - 09:33 PM, said:

So what would you rather have them do?

Not usually do what they usually do.... nerf all the things.

[Kuaron]

So increase power creep and give everything even more quirks.
Let me think about it…

Other suggestions?

[RestosIII]

Kuaron, on 21 January 2017 - 09:56 PM, said:

So increase power creep and give everything even more quirks.
Let me think about it…

Other suggestions?

If "power creep" is making **** mechs not ****, then I'm all for it.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Kuaron, on 21 January 2017 - 09:56 PM, said:

So increase power creep and give everything even more quirks.
Let me think about it…

Other suggestions?

Is it power creep if you are raising the power level of poor performers to that of the current top dogs?

[Y E O N N E]

Kuaron, on 21 January 2017 - 09:33 PM, said:

So what would you rather have them do?

Pay attention to the discussions within the competitive scene they like to selectively cultivate and ignore when convenient?

Or are you looking for specific changes? I could write several pages on that subject, but for the sake of brevity here's where I'd start:

Strip the durability and weapon quirks, set a flag on isXL that automatically buffs the durability of the STs of equipping 'Mechs to equal the CT, set 5-class AC heat back to 1, and set the IS Medium Laser to 3 heat with a shorter cool-down. That's not complete by any means, but it's a strong start

I'm not inclined to start nerfing the Clan 'Mechs until I can verify what it takes to rival them, and if what it takes to rival them makes the game overly brutal then we can start pushing things back down.

[Kuaron]

@ Restos and Kalasa:
If everytime one could nerf the ones or buff the others one decides in favour of the latter, it is exactly what power creep is about.

@ Yeonne:
The tournament was held on a year-old build of the game and in a very specific meta. And PGI has all the data from the live servers anyway. I wouldn’t overestimate the tournament’s value, even if PGI should ofc use whatever data they get including the tournament.

On the specific suggestions:

Yes to IS XL ST structure bonusses. Same for (IS and Clan) STD CT structure bonusses.
This could be a measure to close the gap to Clan XLs that actually showed some effect. (IIRC I suggested something like this somewhere on the forum and I’m sure I wasn’t the only one.)
I disagree on the (U)AC5 and ML suggestions, though, from the viewpoint of balance between the different weapons of a class.

The problem with nerfing Clan Mechs is that many already have no quirks, so one would have to nerf the weapon characteristics themselves or give negative quirks, both being rather ugly. But increasing IS quirks and buffing everything to Kodiak and Night Gyr level instead of fixing the engines is surely the wrong way.

Edited by Kuaron, 21 January 2017 - 10:46 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Kuaron, on 21 January 2017 - 10:45 PM, said:

@ Yeonne:
The tournament was held on a year-old build of the game and in a very specific meta. And PGI has all the data from the live servers anyway. I wouldn’t overestimate the tournament’s value, even if PGI should ofc use whatever data they get including the tournament.

It's a year old now. It wasn't always a year old. They should have been using it to figure out how to balance the live servers last year. Even now, though, the only major difference is the sizing of the 'Mechs and the addition of a new Clan 'Mech that lopsides it in their favor even more (Night Gyr).

Quote

I disagree on the (U)AC5 and ML suggestions, though, from the viewpoint of balance between the different weapons of a class.

That doesn't make sense. The IS run too hot for the range bracket their lasers operate in; dropping the heat on the MedLas basically compensates for the loss of that general, prolific 10% heat gen quirk and a reduction in cycle time allows it to be more competitive with the massed numbers of cERSL in their bracket. A similar problem arises with UACs, since the IS have to run PPCs with them to be able to compete with the pure UAC builds a 'Mech like the Night Gyr can run, and with the 1.5 heat they can't do it. With 1 heat, they could.

And no, it's not power-creep, because the bar was already set. We aren't pushing it up.

Quote

The problem with nerfing Clan Mechs is that many already have no quirks, so one would have to nerf the weapon characteristics themselves or give negative quirks, both being rather ugly.

I am aware of that. I have even said as much. But there's a middle ground between the Clans and the IS where we need to be; we can't figure out where it is until we've put both sides on parity and that means either nerfing the Clans down to the best IS levels (which is harder to do) or bringing the IS up to the best Clan levels (easier).

Quote

But increasing IS quirks and buffing everything to Kodiak and Night Gyr level instead of fixing the engines is surely the wrong way.

That, my friend, is 100% opinion, especially because engines aren't the whole story.

[Kuaron]

The engine thing is one of the main ones holding IS and Clan apart, power-wise.
There are more solutions, ofc. For example, I’d wouldn’t mind to see 10 vs. 12 battles with Clans keeping a 20% tech advantage.
But the main competitor still seems to be solving the problem by quirks, and this spoken out seems to meet little love. It’s just when quirks are actually being reduced, people start worrying about losing their precious toys.
Anyway, an opinion may be an opinion, but in a different context this one – not relying on quirk buffs – was most often the popular one.

About MLs:
How does it fit with them currently being a very popular choice?
Or would you change all of the weapons at once, to avoid MPLs becoming entirely useless?

[Y E O N N E]

Kuaron, on 22 January 2017 - 12:20 AM, said:

About MLs:
How does it fit with them currently being a very popular choice?
Or would you change all of the weapons at once, to avoid MPLs becoming entirely useless?

Medium lasers are popular because they are an efficient use of your weight and slots, not because they are great in an absolute sense.

And yes, I would change all of the weapons at once. I've posted about lasers many times, you can find some of my tables lying around even on page 2 or 3 of this forum.

[Duke Nedo]

Yeonne Greene, on 21 January 2017 - 10:10 PM, said:

snip... Strip the durability and weapon quirks, set a flag on isXL that automatically buffs the durability of the STs of equipping 'Mechs to equal the CT... snap.

I think you touch upon something important here that's not spoken out loud too often, and that is that any IS mech that is ever supposed to be on parity with the best clan mechs must be able to "safely" equip an IS XL engine. Otherwise it will never be able to match the speed and firepower of the top dogs.

I guess the difference is the smallest for mediums because they can stay above the minimum speed requirement without sacrificing too many tons on the STD engine, but still... the clan counter-part is faster.

That said, I can somehow appreciate the WHM nerf if, and only if, there is an immediate plan to equalize IS and Clan XLs. If they do so, then it makes sense to balance IS mechs vs IS mechs and clan mechs vs clan mechs. I'd much prefer if it was made simultaneously though, now we will have at the very least one month of extra bad faction balance.

[Phra]

SoloidSnake, on 20 January 2017 - 03:39 PM, said:

PGI thinks that overused Mechs = overpowered Mechs.

But that exactly is the case, at least compared to the rest of the available options.

[Sjorpha]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 21 January 2017 - 10:05 PM, said:

Is it power creep if you are raising the power level of poor performers to that of the current top dogs?

Actually yes, that preference for buffing weak options rather than nerfing strong ones, combined with the release of new strong options, is what drives power creep in games.

Now you actually have to pick one, if you are using power creep arguments against buffing the weak options you actually have to accept nerfing the strong ones down to that level. You can't use power creep to argue the game should stay unbalanced like some people, mostly clan fanbois, are trying to do.

It's a little different when you weigh durability buffs vs firepower buffs, durability cancels out firepower and can be described as a global nerf to firepower, so i don't see it as power creep in the same sense. Buffing the IS XL would be a functional nerf to weapons, if you think about it.

Edited by Sjorpha, 22 January 2017 - 03:24 AM.

[The Unstoppable Puggernaut]

I wonder if this is a self caused problem.

By releasing so many mechs, there are more chassis to balance.

By tweaking 'x' weapons as well, this then creates some meta builds by accident.

Overall by reducing players to just picking top tier chassis, they can then at least make their balancing job easier. This could explain the odd clan nerfs that took place. People will be moving back to primary meta's and it's easier to track.

I would actually prefer to see mechs which have worse usage/performance stacks be made known and buffed just to see some variety on the field. I hate seeing the same killer mechs day in day out.

[Duke Nedo]

Sjorpha, on 22 January 2017 - 03:21 AM, said:

Actually yes, that preference for buffing weak options rather than nerfing strong ones, combined with the release of new strong options, is what drives power creep in games.

Now you actually have to pick one, if you are using power creep arguments against buffing the weak options you actually have to accept nerfing the strong ones down to that level. You can't use power creep to argue the game should stay unbalanced like some people, mostly clan fanbois, are trying to do.

It's a little different when you weigh durability buffs vs firepower buffs, durability cancels out firepower and can be described as a global nerf to firepower, so i don't see it as power creep in the same sense. Buffing the IS XL would be a functional nerf to weapons, if you think about it.

Yes and no... I guess the KDK-3, NGR, HBK-IIc's and ACHs are quite near as strong as they get. But I agree with all you write otherwise.

[Widowmaker1981]

Phra, on 22 January 2017 - 03:16 AM, said:

But that exactly is the case, at least compared to the rest of the available options.

Except its not.

Take the Shadow Cat as an example. MASC and 6JJs on a 105 kph medium make it incredibly fun to drive, plus it looks good and has massive nostalgia value, so its popular. Anyone who thinks its actually overperforming compared to a Stormcrow or Hunchback-IIC is high, though.

[Sjorpha]

Duke Nedo, on 22 January 2017 - 05:47 AM, said:

Yes and no... I guess the KDK-3, NGR, HBK-IIc's and ACHs are quite near as strong as they get. But I agree with all you write otherwise.

I don't understand what you are diagreeing with, i didn't mention specific mechs. Please explain.

[Bud Crue]

Kuaron, on 21 January 2017 - 09:33 PM, said:

So what would you rather have them do?

Scalpel instead of Hammer. That simple.

Consider the Warhammer nerf. What is it affecting? One variant, running one particular build or all variants? The answer is ALL of them. Now, does anyone really believe that PGI has data showing that the WHM-7S is really OP? No. Even if you believer that the Warhammer "consistently perform beyond other 'Mechs within its weight class, on both the Clan and IS side" that statement is going to be based on the use of specific variants, with specific builds and PGI never takes that into account. This has been true of nearly every nerf pass ever except for the great requirkening I and II and that which followed rescale...and those had a lot of pure nonsense in them (see Grasshoppers for example). From weapons passes that hurt some of the most middling and rarely played mechs in the game to structure passes that hurt all variants of a chassis wherein only one or maybe two variants are problematic, too engine changes that won't do squat to balance IS v Clan but will do a lot to hurt the more fragile clan mechs the people don't play as it is.

Buffing can be great and Nerfing can be desirable. If you do either with "broad based formulas" rather than with specificity both can be equally destructive. And that is the problem: PGI rarely does anything when it comes to quirks with specificity in mind.

Now go back and look at the patch notes...check out the "Mech Fixes and Changes" section. Look at the focus on specificity. Marvel at how they can fix the most incidental and seemingly trivial tiny thing. They are fixing the left foot of a Jaggermech that occasionally twitches when powering down. Now that is focus. Yet, if that was a Jaggermech whose weapons were really effective they would nerf the entire weapon class. If it was a single Jagger that was being played a lot and being effective, they would nerf every Jagger. Stop that shi7.

They need to apply that sort of left foot focus toward their balance decisions. Put the hammer away and try using that scalpel. End even then, use it sparingly and with focus.

Edited by Bud Crue, 22 January 2017 - 07:19 AM.