11 replies to this topic

[Duke Nedo]

Just an idea that popped up.

The thing with XL engines vs faction balance is that any IS mech that is ever going to have a performance equal to the best clan mechs will always have to be able to "safely" equip an IS XL engine. There is no other way to fit the same amount of firepower and speed. Therefore we have discussed either making IS mechs survive losing a ST with an XL, or use structure/armor quirks, which is what PGI went with instead. That can be tweaked to be at parity, that's OK even if I would have preferred the other solution.

Now, if we factor in the STD engines, where the clan STD is completely obsolete and the IS STD is weak compared to the XL counter-parts... Many people, including me, have suggested a huge buff to CT structure with an STD equipped. It got me thinking. We already have IS XLs requiring to buff durability to be viable on IS mechs, and STD engines are really only viable for the lighter engines on lighter mechs where the tonnage penalty is smaller and sufficient speed can be acquired, and the loadout is light enouigh (i.e. laser vomit mostly). That is mainly true for IS mediums, some of them can reasonably well fit a STD engine. That doesn't change the fact the clan counter-part will be faster. (Yes there are a few special cases with low engine caps where there is little to gain from using an XL)

That's a long introduction. Now, that had me thinking, what if instead (or together with) increased durability on STD engines, STD internal truedubs actually were providing like 2.5 heatsink? I haven't thought it completely through, but intuitively I feel that something like that would reinforce what STD engines are good for right now, actually making them more useful. It would decrease the effective tonnage penalty imposed by STD engines and save space (less external DHS needed), without breaking and build rules.

Would that make sense? XLs would still be over all better for most mechs, but it could at least create a niche for both IS and clan mechs to use STD engines once in a while?

[Y E O N N E]

You are echoing some things I've said on this forum over the last several months.

XLs need ST durability.

STD need a little bit of extra durability across all three torso sections and a cooling bonus so you can at least bring comparable firepower.

[Duke Nedo]

Yeonne Greene, on 22 January 2017 - 01:41 AM, said:

You are echoing some things I've said on this forum over the last several months.

XLs need ST durability.

STD need a little bit of extra durability across all three torso sections and a cooling bonus so you can at least bring comparable firepower.

Ah, sorry, didn't mean to try to scoop your idea, I haven't seen cooling discussed before as a STD feature. There are periods when I don't have time to read forums at all so if I do this a lot - apologies to anyone else as well.

[Y E O N N E]

Duke Nedo, on 22 January 2017 - 01:47 AM, said:

Ah, sorry, didn't mean to try to scoop your idea, I haven't seen cooling discussed before as a STD feature. There are periods when I don't have time to read forums at all so if I do this a lot - apologies to anyone else as well.

It's good that people other than me are latching onto the idea. I strongly believe that it's what is necessary to make STD useful, especially if LFE are imminent.

[xe N on]

If energy draw would be still a thing STD engines could provide a higher energy threshold than XL-engines.

In fact there are dozens of options to balance C-XL, XL and STD. However, the reason why that will never happen is: PGI

Edited by xe N on, 22 January 2017 - 02:51 AM.

[Hit the Deck]

You don't need to make STD as a sidegrade to XL because that will create a problem by introducing too many buffs (or nerfs - PGI style) and the same treatment on the Clan side would be far uglier! In the future when there are more then 2 engine types, making them all to be equally attractive for any 'Mech would also be a major problem.

I view STD as the engine to choose if you need to use all ST crit slots, which is a real reason for IS because of their bulkier equipment, moreover when the Heavy Gauss Rifle and LB-X 20 arrive (each occupies 11 slots so they can only be put on ST with an STD - or a Compact). Now if STD is buffed to help 'Mechs tied to it then I have no problem, but just that.

Edited by Hit the Deck, 22 January 2017 - 02:56 AM.

[Duke Nedo]

Hit the Deck, on 22 January 2017 - 02:54 AM, said:

You don't need to make STD as a sidegrade to XL because that will create a problem by introducing too many buffs (or nerfs - PGI style) and the same treatment on the Clan side would be far uglier! In the future when there are more then 2 engine types, making them all to be equally attractive for any 'Mech would also be a major problem.

I view STD as the engine to choose if you need to use all ST crit slots, which is a real reason for IS because of their bulkier equipment, moreover when the Heavy Gauss Rifle and LB-X 20 arrive (each occupies 11 slots so they can only be put on ST with an STD - or a Compact). Now if STD is buffed to help 'Mechs tied to it then I have no problem, but just that.

You really need to make all engines sidegrades to each other, otherwise only the best engine type will be used and the others have no reason to exist.

The problem imo is that the tonnage difference between STD and XL engines that carries over from TT build rules. That difference is just too large to justify use of anything but XL engines and any chassi that can't viably use and XL will never be able to compete with the best mechs in MWO, barring bizarre level quirks then.

So take a STD300 vs a XL300, the penalty for going STD is 9.5 tons.Let's not mix ST death into this argument quite yet, so compare clanXL300 vs clanSTD300. For these 9.5 tons you need to get something. Otherwise STD engines have no reason to exist. Once that is accepted, you can consider the IS XL engines, that must for the sake of balance be as good as clan XL engines when all is said and done.

So, what should STD engines give to make up for these 9.5 tons? Well, my thought was that adding "extra truedubs" is a very simple way of effectively giving you free tons and space right back. If you'd roll with 2.5 dhs per engine truedub that would be worth 5 tons and even more slots depending on faction. Pretty substantial. Only problem is that it doesn't scale with engine size, like the tonnage penalty does so something a little more sophisticated is probably needed....

[Johnny Z]

I like it, better cooling for standards!

Edited by Johnny Z, 22 January 2017 - 06:52 AM.

[BigFatGator]

I was going to post something like this as well... I also agree that the problem is the balance between IS XL and STD engines just isn't there.The IS XL is needed on any mech that is hitbox capable to carry it just to give the agility needed to torso twist and spread damage, and also mount more heatsinks. And of course to match the speed and firepower of clan mechs.

I absolutely agree that we should give all STD engines a big boost to make it a real option for both IS and Clan mech- not just structure and maybe cooling quirks but +15/20% agility as well so you can effectively torso twist using a STD 275 in a heavy.

[Hit the Deck]

Duke Nedo, on 22 January 2017 - 05:13 AM, said:

You really need to make all engines sidegrades to each other, otherwise only the best engine type will be used and the others have no reason to exist.
...

I have stated the reason for STD, which is when you need all ST slots. Example recent builds are the Penta AC Mauler or the AC/20+SRM Brawler Atlas. Future builds are those utilizing Heavy Gauss Rifles or LB-X 20.

It's about builds really and less about players' choice. Helping those which are naturally disadvantaged (like the Brawler Atlas) is a good move.

I view each engine to have a specific purpose by letting some particular builds to exist. The most used engines would forever be the XL because it's in the optimal spot, whether in the IS or Clan.

[Duke Nedo]

Hit the Deck, on 22 January 2017 - 07:25 AM, said:

I have stated the reason for STD, which is when you need all ST slots. Example recent builds are the Penta AC Mauler or the AC/20+SRM Brawler Atlas. Future builds are those utilizing Heavy Gauss Rifles or LB-X 20.

It's about builds really and less about players' choice. Helping those which are naturally disadvantaged (like the Brawler Atlas) is a good move.

I view each engine to have a specific purpose by letting some particular builds to exist. The most used engines would forever be the XL because it's in the optimal spot, whether in the IS or Clan.

Well, I don't think that's a big reason for STDs at all. These builds will never be very strong unless heavily quirked because you are paying a lot of tons for nothing really. In most cases you could make the same build on a chassi with a different hardpoint layout and then it would magically be much faster, or be running much cooler, or have backup weapons etc.

Point is, the tonnage penalty for using a STD engine is not justified at the moment, and therefore these builds are never competitive. You will be able to build it better on either a clan XL chassi or on an IS chassi that can viably mount an XL and has arm ballistics hardpoints for example.

Edited by Duke Nedo, 22 January 2017 - 09:30 AM.

[Gentleman Reaper]

Hit the Deck, on 22 January 2017 - 07:25 AM, said:

I have stated the reason for STD, which is when you need all ST slots. Example recent builds are the Penta AC Mauler or the AC/20+SRM Brawler Atlas. Future builds are those utilizing Heavy Gauss Rifles or LB-X 20.

It's about builds really and less about players' choice. Helping those which are naturally disadvantaged (like the Brawler Atlas) is a good move.

I view each engine to have a specific purpose by letting some particular builds to exist. The most used engines would forever be the XL because it's in the optimal spot, whether in the IS or Clan.

You can't justify that STDs should be inferior because it allows extremely niche builds. People will simply avoid those builds altogether because XL builds will still be better. Your logic makes absolutely zero sense.