Just a curiosity for me that doesn't know the lore, i've been seeing that mechs are releasing in a "power creep" way, not that i think it is bad, or it is the point of the my post, but it got me thinking, what could top that beast?
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As Far As Lore Go, Is There Any 100Ton Clan That Could Top The Kdk?
Started by Iron Tortoise, Jan 25 2017 10:20 AM
6 replies to this topic
#3
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Posted 25 January 2017 - 10:46 AM
In terms of lore... the Dire Wolf did, while it lacked the speed.. in terms of repairs, resources, modification time, and so on... the Dire Wolf basically trumped it. Hell, the Dire Wolf could shoot backwards and forwards, the Kodiak couldn't.
There's a couple more, too.
In terms of actual gameplay rather than lore, I've found that the Bane (Kraken) is insanely formidable against the Kodiak, especially in open terrain. In one instance after which I demanded a rematch, I was killed in the first ten seconds by a Kraken while outside of range for every single one of my weapons. I lost a side torso, the engine itself, the cockpit, and a shoulder actuator in a single volley of fire.
While it wouldn't be any good in MWO if it ever makes it, the Stone Rhino (Behemoth) pretty much can't lose to a Kodiak in Battletech, even if both sides ignore the 'dishonor' of melee. Then again the IS tank by the same name of Behemoth, in its armor variant, would put up a heck of a fight against a Kodiak as well. In fact I ought to try that out.
"Imp" by Clan Wolf which looks like a giant urban mech... sounds like it could contend with a Kodiak and put up a heck of a fight. Haven't tried it out though.
Jupiter, made by Jade Falcon, looks like a Battlemaster on some serious steroids and judging by that weapon loadout alone... yeah the Kodiak's old news.
Scylla by Clan Steel Viper matches the Kodiak in speed and could rival it in firepower. Looks cooler too.
And that's it...
This said: Power creep is kinda bad, but the skill tree coming in February is supposed to help with that, being unique to each 'Mech and giving us choices in how to develop it.
There's a couple more, too.
In terms of actual gameplay rather than lore, I've found that the Bane (Kraken) is insanely formidable against the Kodiak, especially in open terrain. In one instance after which I demanded a rematch, I was killed in the first ten seconds by a Kraken while outside of range for every single one of my weapons. I lost a side torso, the engine itself, the cockpit, and a shoulder actuator in a single volley of fire.
While it wouldn't be any good in MWO if it ever makes it, the Stone Rhino (Behemoth) pretty much can't lose to a Kodiak in Battletech, even if both sides ignore the 'dishonor' of melee. Then again the IS tank by the same name of Behemoth, in its armor variant, would put up a heck of a fight against a Kodiak as well. In fact I ought to try that out.
"Imp" by Clan Wolf which looks like a giant urban mech... sounds like it could contend with a Kodiak and put up a heck of a fight. Haven't tried it out though.
Jupiter, made by Jade Falcon, looks like a Battlemaster on some serious steroids and judging by that weapon loadout alone... yeah the Kodiak's old news.
Scylla by Clan Steel Viper matches the Kodiak in speed and could rival it in firepower. Looks cooler too.
And that's it...
This said: Power creep is kinda bad, but the skill tree coming in February is supposed to help with that, being unique to each 'Mech and giving us choices in how to develop it.
#4
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Welcoming Committee
Posted 25 January 2017 - 10:53 AM
With upcoming mechs, and things like the Marauder IIC basically replacing the WarHawk (Masakari), the choices between Omnipods with single hardpoints yet no quirks against omnipods with multiple hardpoints and positive quirks... as well as discussions about possibly increasing hardpoints on older mechs...
I honestly believe that there is no better time to push for 'sized' hardpoints, preferably with an elevating system where you can split a bigger hardpoint into a couple of smaller ones and vice versa. This gives good reason for things like the Hollander and Urbanmech to exist, as well as a huge tangible difference between a Panther and a Wolfhound as well as a Warhawk and a Marauder IIC.
I honestly believe that there is no better time to push for 'sized' hardpoints, preferably with an elevating system where you can split a bigger hardpoint into a couple of smaller ones and vice versa. This gives good reason for things like the Hollander and Urbanmech to exist, as well as a huge tangible difference between a Panther and a Wolfhound as well as a Warhawk and a Marauder IIC.
#5
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Posted 25 January 2017 - 10:54 AM
Koniving, on 25 January 2017 - 10:46 AM, said:
In terms of lore... the Dire Wolf did, while it lacked the speed.. in terms of repairs, resources, modification time, and so on... the Dire Wolf basically trumped it. Hell, the Dire Wolf could shoot backwards and forwards, the Kodiak couldn't.
There's a couple more, too.
In terms of actual gameplay rather than lore, I've found that the Bane (Kraken) is insanely formidable against the Kodiak, especially in open terrain. In one instance after which I demanded a rematch, I was killed in the first ten seconds by a Kraken while outside of range for every single one of my weapons. I lost a side torso, the engine itself, the cockpit, and a shoulder actuator in a single volley of fire.
While it wouldn't be any good in MWO if it ever makes it, the Stone Rhino (Behemoth) pretty much can't lose to a Kodiak in Battletech, even if both sides ignore the 'dishonor' of melee. Then again the IS tank by the same name of Behemoth, in its armor variant, would put up a heck of a fight against a Kodiak as well. In fact I ought to try that out.
"Imp" by Clan Wolf which looks like a giant urban mech... sounds like it could contend with a Kodiak and put up a heck of a fight. Haven't tried it out though.
Jupiter, made by Jade Falcon, looks like a Battlemaster on some serious steroids and judging by that weapon loadout alone... yeah the Kodiak's old news.
Scylla by Clan Steel Viper matches the Kodiak in speed and could rival it in firepower. Looks cooler too.
And that's it...
This said: Power creep is kinda bad, but the skill tree coming in February is supposed to help with that, being unique to each 'Mech and giving us choices in how to develop it.
There's a couple more, too.
In terms of actual gameplay rather than lore, I've found that the Bane (Kraken) is insanely formidable against the Kodiak, especially in open terrain. In one instance after which I demanded a rematch, I was killed in the first ten seconds by a Kraken while outside of range for every single one of my weapons. I lost a side torso, the engine itself, the cockpit, and a shoulder actuator in a single volley of fire.
While it wouldn't be any good in MWO if it ever makes it, the Stone Rhino (Behemoth) pretty much can't lose to a Kodiak in Battletech, even if both sides ignore the 'dishonor' of melee. Then again the IS tank by the same name of Behemoth, in its armor variant, would put up a heck of a fight against a Kodiak as well. In fact I ought to try that out.
"Imp" by Clan Wolf which looks like a giant urban mech... sounds like it could contend with a Kodiak and put up a heck of a fight. Haven't tried it out though.
Jupiter, made by Jade Falcon, looks like a Battlemaster on some serious steroids and judging by that weapon loadout alone... yeah the Kodiak's old news.
Scylla by Clan Steel Viper matches the Kodiak in speed and could rival it in firepower. Looks cooler too.
And that's it...
This said: Power creep is kinda bad, but the skill tree coming in February is supposed to help with that, being unique to each 'Mech and giving us choices in how to develop it.
WOW i saw this mech on google "the kraken thing" man, i would love to see it in this game.
#6
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Posted 25 January 2017 - 12:29 PM
Power creep is always bad in a game with MWO's design philosophy (which is most of them,) but the 'mech itself is symptomatic of the creep and not its cause. What's going on with the Kodiak and other Clan Battlemechs is that the restrictions placed on Clan Omnimechs were enforcing a balance that was only viable with the original runs of Clan Omnis. The Omnis that excelled were originally those with large engine caps and good hardpoint placement - Clan weapons were tuned by gameplay results with these 'mechs, and while balance wasn't perfect, it was still in the ballpark.
After the release of the original first run of Clan Battlemechs, the largest offerings (the Orion and Highlander IIC) were frankly bad - due to a combination of hit boxes and available hardpoints. The Jenner and Hunchback were well-received, but took a while to hit the meta and didn't create as much impact because of their size.
Enter the Kodiak. A 100-ton chassis with high-mounted autocannons and capable of mounting up to an XL 400 - all Clantech. Finally, the Clans had a chassis with both the tonnage and the hardpoint locations to make the best use of the superior weapons and upgrade options available to them, and they did. Granted, the Kodiak also inadvertently exploited a bug in the Heat Scale system which allowed them unintended heat efficiency. Even after that fix, however, the Kodiak remains solidly at the top of the Assault rankings. The Night Gyr followed, and the resulting attention from the devs found UACs in general to be overperforming, with a nerf last November.
Even after that, the Kodiak is the superior 100-tonner; it's just the combination of Clantech - some of which (e.g Endo-steel, XL engines) is simply flat-out superior to the Inner Sphere - and Battlemech design rules, coupled with the availability of good hardpoints and hit boxes. Similarly, we're seeing some newer Omnimechs mount smaller engines, allowing for more guns. The Huntsman is an excellent example: "only" 87kph with speed tweak, the thing has both jump jets and one more ton of effective pod space than the Stormcrow - which is 5 tons heavier. I think these 'mechs are a big factor in why Clan balance is suddenly seeming to shift back up to clear superiority, though my analysis in that regard is highly scientific.
Anyway, like others pointed out, there are several 'mechs whose loadouts have the potential to outmatch the Kodiak within their dedicated roles, but in MWO a lot depends on hit boxes and mobility quirks in addition to the base loadouts.
After the release of the original first run of Clan Battlemechs, the largest offerings (the Orion and Highlander IIC) were frankly bad - due to a combination of hit boxes and available hardpoints. The Jenner and Hunchback were well-received, but took a while to hit the meta and didn't create as much impact because of their size.
Enter the Kodiak. A 100-ton chassis with high-mounted autocannons and capable of mounting up to an XL 400 - all Clantech. Finally, the Clans had a chassis with both the tonnage and the hardpoint locations to make the best use of the superior weapons and upgrade options available to them, and they did. Granted, the Kodiak also inadvertently exploited a bug in the Heat Scale system which allowed them unintended heat efficiency. Even after that fix, however, the Kodiak remains solidly at the top of the Assault rankings. The Night Gyr followed, and the resulting attention from the devs found UACs in general to be overperforming, with a nerf last November.
Even after that, the Kodiak is the superior 100-tonner; it's just the combination of Clantech - some of which (e.g Endo-steel, XL engines) is simply flat-out superior to the Inner Sphere - and Battlemech design rules, coupled with the availability of good hardpoints and hit boxes. Similarly, we're seeing some newer Omnimechs mount smaller engines, allowing for more guns. The Huntsman is an excellent example: "only" 87kph with speed tweak, the thing has both jump jets and one more ton of effective pod space than the Stormcrow - which is 5 tons heavier. I think these 'mechs are a big factor in why Clan balance is suddenly seeming to shift back up to clear superiority, though my analysis in that regard is highly scientific.
Anyway, like others pointed out, there are several 'mechs whose loadouts have the potential to outmatch the Kodiak within their dedicated roles, but in MWO a lot depends on hit boxes and mobility quirks in addition to the base loadouts.
#7
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Posted 25 January 2017 - 01:01 PM
An option -- originally done before people cried -- is to restrict engines based on the rules.
In which case a Kodiak's only choices in engines are 400, 300, and 200.
Atlas, King Crab and Dire Wolf all start with 300 engines.
This puts them on much more even terms. So you have the amazing speed but not much tonnage... or you have much slower speeds and lots more tonnage free with nothing in between.
Granted, if we go a bit further, you can't change your structure in Battletech 'Mech customization rules (which is not the same as Battletech's "make your own mech" construction rules), and so the Kodiak does have a huge advantage in endo steel... and hardly enough slots to carry enough cooling to handle its loadout in MWO.
This eliminates the excessive side of Battlemech 'freedom', allowing customization without going overboard. Tack in sized hard points and you're about set. Far as the Huntsman and Stormcrow comparison, I'll have to look into that a bit more. Though from what I can see, part of the blatant superiority is intended, after all the Huntsman was designed over a hundred years later. At a glance though, Stormcrow can carry larger weapons so if sized hardpoints were a thing, Stormcrow would still have that advantage in addition to speed.
But now I'm talking balance... So I'll save it for elsewhere.
You said it best though..
The issue for the Kodiak is Clan tech + battlemech design rules (instead of customization rules).
In which case a Kodiak's only choices in engines are 400, 300, and 200.
Atlas, King Crab and Dire Wolf all start with 300 engines.
This puts them on much more even terms. So you have the amazing speed but not much tonnage... or you have much slower speeds and lots more tonnage free with nothing in between.
Granted, if we go a bit further, you can't change your structure in Battletech 'Mech customization rules (which is not the same as Battletech's "make your own mech" construction rules), and so the Kodiak does have a huge advantage in endo steel... and hardly enough slots to carry enough cooling to handle its loadout in MWO.
This eliminates the excessive side of Battlemech 'freedom', allowing customization without going overboard. Tack in sized hard points and you're about set. Far as the Huntsman and Stormcrow comparison, I'll have to look into that a bit more. Though from what I can see, part of the blatant superiority is intended, after all the Huntsman was designed over a hundred years later. At a glance though, Stormcrow can carry larger weapons so if sized hardpoints were a thing, Stormcrow would still have that advantage in addition to speed.
But now I'm talking balance... So I'll save it for elsewhere.
You said it best though..
The issue for the Kodiak is Clan tech + battlemech design rules (instead of customization rules).
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