181 replies to this topic

[Tiantara]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 31 January 2017 - 11:20 AM, said:

Yes, and you are talking about nerfing the only real viable PPC right now. Splash isn't the only solution to balance PPCs.

- If choosing between nerfing some weapon or taking off IS XL death penalty and replace it with speed penalty = -80% what do you choose than?

Edited by Tiantara, 31 January 2017 - 11:34 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Tiantara, on 31 January 2017 - 11:23 AM, said:

- If choosing between nerfing some weapon or taking off IS XL death penalty and replace it with speed penalty = -80% what do you choose than?

Neither because neither fixes the actual problem.....

[Tiantara]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 31 January 2017 - 11:37 AM, said:

Neither because neither fixes the actual problem.....

- Maybe not... maybe make a bit better balance. Not good at once, but better. First step to right way.

[C E Dwyer]

There isn't a single answer, unless people are saying for balance sake lets completely forget about all the lore, and everything Battletech Mechwarrior is and just turn this game into a robot shooter, in which case what's the point of being here, and not one of the other robot shooters that uses the same system for all players regardless of which team

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Tiantara, on 31 January 2017 - 11:44 AM, said:

- Maybe not... maybe make a bit better balance. Not good at once, but better. First step to right way.

It isn't a first step to the right way because it is yet another bandaid that breaks some things in the process (well, the PPC change is at least, the other one still isn't really fixing anything).

[Tiantara]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 31 January 2017 - 11:59 AM, said:

It isn't a first step to the right way because it is yet another bandaid that breaks some things in the process (well, the PPC change is at least, the other one still isn't really fixing anything).

- Right now I'm choosing between change most critical point in balance to make more mech playable (including those from master bundle) for as many players as possible from tier 5 to tier 2. Not something what need years to make or remake whole mechanic - but something what PGI can do fast... put on PTS and test right in one-one and a half month.

Edited by Tiantara, 31 January 2017 - 12:11 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Tiantara, on 31 January 2017 - 12:11 PM, said:

- Right now I'm choosing between change most critical point in balance to make more mech playable (including those from master bundle) for as many players as possible from tier 5 to tier 2.

Neither of which do either of your plans do, especially the PPC change (since we will go right back to laser vomit and IS mechs still dying stupidly fast).

The easiest fix is to make iXLs behave like cXLs but not the best solution (it would still require buffs to STD engines either way).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 31 January 2017 - 12:17 PM.

[Mystere]

Cathy, on 31 January 2017 - 11:45 AM, said:

There isn't a single answer, unless people are saying for balance sake lets completely forget about all the lore, and everything Battletech Mechwarrior is and just turn this game into a robot shooter ...

I'm afraid that's exactly what a not so insignificant number of people are saying.

[Tiantara]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 31 January 2017 - 12:17 PM, said:

Neither of which do either of your plans do, especially the PPC change (since we will go right back to laser vomit and IS mechs still dying stupidly fast).

The easiest fix is to make iXLs behave like cXLs but not the best solution (it would still require buffs to STD engines either way).

- Oh, PPC was just an example - I just take one of result from PTS Energy Draw test where that change was as one possibility to take off poptarting mech and make less destructive PPC boating mech as well.

- IS XL not same. When someone say "same as clan" everyone think that it's about make really same - drop a little speed and a little heatmanagement. No. It's about do much greater speed loss instead of death penalty. No need to really buff STD - need preserve speed - take STD, want take risk to have only 20% from your max speed - take IS XL. In same time - bring back 20-30% loss of heatmanagement of clan mech.

All talk about get rid of weakness which "balanced" by adding tweaks and quirks which make mech OP instead of make them live longer. Because simple players from lower tier still bad in piloting and still die no matter have that side torso 41 armor or 46 + 10 inner structure... They buy mech and die from good pinpoint damage to... not really important part of their mech.

It psychological - if mech die from loosing 2 most critical for live parts - it's ok. But if full armored mech die from one shot in side torso or side torso back and all other components intact - it produce bad experience and force to choose more reliable mech instead. Changing that - changes interest to IS mech and make Inner Sphere population a bit bigger.

Edited by Tiantara, 31 January 2017 - 12:33 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Tiantara, on 31 January 2017 - 12:33 PM, said:

- IS XL not same. When someone say "same as clan" everyone think that it's about make really same - drop a little speed and a little heatmanagement. No. It's about do much greater speed loss instead of death penalty. No need to really buff STD - need preserve speed - take STD, want take risk to have only 20% from your max speed - take IS XL. In same time - bring back 20-30% loss of heatmanagement of clan mech.

No, I really mean making it function exactly the same, because that is the easiest way to bring parity, even easier than yours. That said, STD engines would need to be buffed regardless because they need to be on par with Clan XLs, and they aren't right now.

That isn't what I want, but you brought up something about the "easiest" solution, and that right there is actually the easiest solution, it just isn't the best (though better than yours).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 31 January 2017 - 12:38 PM.

[Tiantara]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 31 January 2017 - 12:37 PM, said:

No, I really mean making it function exactly the same, because that is the easiest way to bring parity, even easier than yours. That said, STD engines would need to be buffed regardless because they need to be on par with Clan XLs, and they aren't right now.

That isn't what I want, but you brought up something about the "easiest" solution, and that right there is actually the easiest solution, it just isn't the best (though better than yours).

- We need difference in technology anyway. Making all XL same - no use. Because in that case you need get rid all of quirks and buffs from IS mech and bring them back after long test. It's not that simple as you may think. Right now instant death is a problem and lack of teamwork also present in game. Those who die too often - take Clan mech and won't play for IS anymore. My change bring tactic when teammates will protect their "become slow" mech because it still alive and can fire back to enemy. Make game more cooperative than it has now, when teammate run forward abandoning damaged mech or not helping because "red side torso on xl - he dead anyway, why bother".
In that case STD no need to be buffed - they preserve speed and make mech zombie (cool for mech with weapon in center torso). Maybe add some better heatmanagement would be good idea to STD... but...

IF we get LFE engines - good. They took place between STD and XL. If not - changing to less harmful penalty make game on IS mech longer.

- If make IS XL exact like Clan - we need to change all buffs, remake all impact weapon (as AC20 and LPL), lower armor for some mech and many more. Whole idea of IS still - they older, not ideal, heavy armored and have speed by cost of firepower. No need take away that unique side of IS mech. Make them run fast as they can until they got pinpoint shot and become much slower. Who don't want loose speed or think that XL not his playstiyle - take STD.

Make that change - and after we can talk about which quirks should be changed as well (since mech live longer) change speed penalty from 80% to 50% for some mech (like champion or hero, to make them more playable) and so on.
Right now it most possible thing - comparing to complex revision of weapon, armor, quirks and remodeling hitboxes again.

P.S. I was OK with IS XL when here was battle IS vs IS... since we have only Clan vs IS - that become a problem, because team play become dice game - you don't know how many dies because they bad at XL.

Edited by Tiantara, 31 January 2017 - 01:15 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Tiantara, on 31 January 2017 - 01:02 PM, said:

- We need difference in technology anyway.

Then we have to accept that we will need to wait, because any other change WILL fall short and be not enough or will just make them too similar.

Tiantara, on 31 January 2017 - 01:02 PM, said:

Because in that case you need get rid all of quirks and buffs from IS mech and bring them back after long test.

You will have to do that either way, the point isn't to just touch things up a little bit, it is to redo the entire system to avoid the mess we are in in the first place.

Tiantara, on 31 January 2017 - 01:02 PM, said:

Right now instant death is a problem and lack of teamwork also present in game.

Teamwork will always be a problem and has nothing to do with iXL deaths.

Tiantara, on 31 January 2017 - 01:02 PM, said:

Those who die too often - take Clan mech and won't play for IS anymore.

No, there is more too it than that, for someone who says it isn't as simple you seem to think the situation is pretty simple.

Tiantara, on 31 January 2017 - 01:02 PM, said:

My change bring tactic when teammates will protect their "become slow" mech because it still alive and can fire back to enemy.

In theory, sure. In practice, no it won't, that mech will be dead shortly after because it is better to leave him to die than take up a poor position and get run over because being 80% slower is still near death.

Basically you don't understand the implications of your changes (in that they are negligible enough to have no impact on balance currently). This thread is about fixing balance, not doing some stupid small change that won't change anything as far as the big picture of tech balance goes (nor will it change player behavior).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 31 January 2017 - 01:19 PM.

[Tiantara]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 31 January 2017 - 01:18 PM, said:

Then we have to accept that we will need to wait, because any other change WILL fall short and be not enough or will just make them too similar.

- I'll wait. Still I'm playing in MWO from the first day, after my vaforite mech was nerfed many times and gauss was changed, and ghost heat was added, and right now I have no possibility to fight IS vs IS and in FP 70% time - QP maps...
So I'll wait. Just need to know - what. I remember that "unlucky change of minimap", don't really want get something like that but in mech balance case.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 31 January 2017 - 01:18 PM, said:

You will have to do that either way, the point isn't to just touch things up a little bit, it is to redo the entire system to avoid the mess we are in in the first place.

- Yeap. But remastering whole mechanic can be long process. Longer than others players can wait. Especially new one, who dont really understand why their IS mech with XL fragile. Or other IS mech just have no power to fight against Clan. They are new, think about any changes must be based not only on top tier experience and wishes.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 31 January 2017 - 01:18 PM, said:

Teamwork will always be a problem and has nothing to do with iXL deaths.

- And XL make it even worse, if you have no backup or get friendly fire in back. But yes. I see really rare Invasion map with strategy now, only QP map in FP. And when I see them - all ends really quick. half XL users dead, including trial mech users. Half trying to fight... and just press K when understand that they nothing can do.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 31 January 2017 - 01:18 PM, said:

No, there is more too it than that, for someone who says it isn't as simple you seem to think the situation is pretty simple.

- Not simple. But some parts really too sharp to ignore them. All problem started when we have no IS vs IS battles. In QP always was 70% clan and 30% good IS. Normally we have that now. In FP - glass mech become weak point of team and part of defeat game end.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 31 January 2017 - 01:18 PM, said:

In theory, sure. In practice, no it won't, that mech will be dead shortly after because it is better to leave him to die than take up a poor position and get run over because being 80% slower is still near death.

- Yeap. Shortly but not instant. If it have some ranged weapon he can do some shoots back. maybe that few shoots take down 1 enemy. Make team population "balanced". There is difference - die and leave enemy mech with red part of torso... or loose side torso, become slow but still do few shots back and maybe take him down helping your team win. Feel the difference.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 31 January 2017 - 01:18 PM, said:

Basically you don't understand the implications of your changes (in that they are negligible enough to have no impact on balance currently). This thread is about fixing balance, not doing some stupid small change that won't change anything as far as the big picture of tech balance goes (nor will it change player behavior).

- I do understand them. But I searching answer not only in tech balance, but experience for player, making easier adapt to game for new players, search some modification to game mode and maps to make players use all map not 60% of it. Testing, trying private game and spending time on PTS when it was active. If -80% speed too much - change to 50%. Add buffs for some mech to preserve more speed but take more heat impact...
Right now we all know that IS XL always will have death penalty and all quirks and changes only to make that mech live longer. Enormous armor (what make Clan pilots have bigger damage at the end of game and bigger c-bill reward) only to make XL mech live longer... but only if pilot have skill of high tier. Any lower - still same weak mech and whining post about OP clan mech like I see so often.

[MadIrish]

What I want to see is an actual number of IS Team vs Clan Team wins/losses in faction play for the past 30 days not the doctored numbers shown in the ingame leaderboards which does some fuzzy math based on factions on the team during the match. Then after we see that stat lets talk about how nerfing or buffing is needed to balance the two sides.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Tiantara, on 31 January 2017 - 01:58 PM, said:

- Not simple. But some parts really too sharp to ignore them. All problem started when we have no IS vs IS battles. In QP always was 70% clan and 30% good IS. Normally we have that now. In FP - glass mech become weak point of team and part of defeat game end.

The problem has ALWAYS been there, whether a mode allowed you to play in your own isolated fantasy land is irrelevant.

Tiantara, on 31 January 2017 - 01:58 PM, said:

- Yeap. Shortly but not instant. If it have some ranged weapon he can do some shoots back.

That's too much of an assumption for something that is essentially immobile.

Tiantara, on 31 January 2017 - 01:58 PM, said:

- I do understand them. But I searching answer not only in tech balance, but experience for player, making easier adapt to game for new players, search some modification to game mode and maps to make players use all map not 60% of it.

The NPE and tech balance are two different subjects that should not really cross streams well. If something isn't explained well to new players, the answer shouldn't be to change the mechanic, it should be to explain it better to new players.....

[Tiantara]

Quote

What I want to see is an actual number of IS Team vs Clan Team wins/losses in faction play for the past 30 days not the doctored numbers shown in the ingame leaderboards which does some fuzzy math based on factions on the team during the match. Then after we see that stat lets talk about how nerfing or buffing is needed to balance the two sides.

- Ingame leaderboards give you pretty narrowed information. But anyway - high skilled really hard using any voice cooperation team easy win vs random team. No matter of mech. Pro gamers also can win because of strategy and well knowing weak and strong sides of mech. In mass - battle randome vs randome IS vs Clan - more wins have clan.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 31 January 2017 - 02:07 PM, said:

The problem has ALWAYS been there, whether a mode allowed you to play in your own isolated fantasy land is irrelevant.

- I understand that. But I want reduce some of the problems. Like - some players still didn't know that BAP take down ECM and their invisible mech become visible for SSRM. Not all know how to use LRM in teamplay. What benefits give narc and tag. Many new players who came here from other shooters seriously think that they must kill target at cost of their live. because target would be killed by someone else and... that = kill stealing!!
I don't want isolated fantasy. I want crystal clear rules for each players with description why XL risky to use, how to choose mech, which mode need more or less skill. And so on. Not somewhere on dusty pages deep in forum but at first page. With easy language. Not charades like Ferro description (some players still think that it provides more armor, not same armor for less weight). and many more.
For example... right now we have event with Lance Formation. 20% of payers understand what it means and how to use it.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 31 January 2017 - 02:07 PM, said:

That's too much of an assumption for something that is essentially immobile.

- I played on longrange mech with no leg and take few enemy with me. Some pilots also can do that. If he cant - he cant do that even on clan mech anyway. Often we have situation in game where need 1-2 shoots more... to win. But mech dead.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 31 January 2017 - 02:07 PM, said:

The NPE and tech balance are two different subjects that should not really cross streams well. If something isn't explained well to new players, the answer shouldn't be to change the mechanic, it should be to explain it better to new players.....

- Yeap. Agree.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Tiantara, on 31 January 2017 - 02:30 PM, said:

- I understand that. But I want reduce some of the problems. Like - some players still didn't know that BAP take down ECM and their invisible mech become visible for SSRM. Not all know how to use LRM in teamplay. What benefits give narc and tag.

That still doesn't mean the mechanics should be adjusted (even though in this case they should because BAP/ECM/TAG/NARC mechanics are horribly convoluted and add absolutely no depth to the game). This goes back to explaining mechanics better within the game rather than trying to change the mechanics so new players aren't so confused.

Tiantara, on 31 January 2017 - 02:30 PM, said:

- I played on longrange mech with no leg and take few enemy with me. Some pilots also can do that.

The difference is part of the reason you can last so long on one leg is if you are abusing your dead leg and damage transfer mechanics. Being slowed down to 80% when you have fresh legs is very different (because it means torsos will aimed for, not a dead leg). Well that or you are playing against potatoes, either way it still doesn't help new players.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 31 January 2017 - 02:44 PM.

[Tiantara]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 31 January 2017 - 02:41 PM, said:

That still doesn't mean the mechanics should be adjusted (even though in this case they should because BAP/ECM/TAG/NARC mechanics are horribly convoluted and add absolutely no depth to the game). This goes back to explaining mechanics better within the game rather than trying to change the mechanics so new players aren't so confused.

- Indeed... and better put some work on it, than once again rebuild all balance only to make all mech more playable. I still wait Energy Draw... which took some big amount of time and used to be answer to enormous alpha in game and make longer time to kill.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 31 January 2017 - 02:41 PM, said:

The difference is part of the reason you can last so long on one leg is if you are abusing your dead leg and damage transfer mechanics. Being slowed down to 80% when you have fresh legs is very different (because it means torsos will aimed for, not a dead leg). Well that or you are playing against potatoes, either way it still doesn't help new players.

- Right. That some part of piloting skill, knowing strong place of mech and placing armor to take damage transfer right. You can learn it by playing game longer than 1 month. When pilot die instantly after LRM shower, sniper pinpoint shot, friendly fire, from overheat which take down it's red side torso - he learn nothing about mech except one thing - that mech bad need to go and write whine post about OP weapon which kills him. And he play shorter. Not everyone love to survive. Let player catch by game and it style and than give more hard task to do in it.

Ok, slowed not for 80% but for 50%. I don't say take off agility - movement speed only. Sided IS XL still have speed to turn its torso for avoiding or spreading damage - just can't move as fast as before.
For example.
All engine same rate provide same speed. XL provide more speed because weight less.
If heavy mech use STD 260 it have speed ~69kph. Loosing both torsos wont affect speed at all.
If that mech change engine to 315 XL it gets speed ~84kph. loosing one side of engine impact with 80% speed penalty = 16kph. Half of stock speed of Urbanmech. Em... Ok, lets say penalty 50% = 34kph. Much better.
35% = 55kph, too much, some assaults at full speed walks slower (King Crab, Dire Wolf, Atlas).
So - something between 40% and 50% can be acceptable.
Everything can be even easier - just limit speed by speed after leg loss + 10kph and don't drop it further if mech lost also its leg. And we have no problem with calculation.
Torso always aimed with some weapons (Cluster, splash, homing). Especially in focused fire with push strategy where easier fire to torso than search for legs.

Yes! We talking about new player and making their first IS mech feels better. Live a bit longer before they learn how to pilot and which damage go to which section of mech body. Not like it now - boom... you have no torso, you dead, nearly whole mech, splash screen with result where not so much damage, low rewards and bad feelings about purchased mech.
Jus look how many great hero IS mech stay in dust. Some of them can be useful even with its lack of firepower, but they need speed. Speed with which they become glass tincan.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Tiantara, on 31 January 2017 - 03:23 PM, said:

Ok, slowed not for 80% but for 50%. I don't say take off agility - movement speed only. Sided IS XL still have speed to turn its torso for avoiding or spreading damage - just can't move as fast as before.

At that point you are only 30% from basically making them Clan XLs, wasn't that something you wanted to avoid? If the point is to minimize the problems IS have, then stop beating around the bush and make them Clan XLs until a better solution is made. Otherwise accept what we have and wait until they can change how engines work and the iXL can be designed better.

[MadIrish]

Tiantara, on 31 January 2017 - 02:30 PM, said:

- Ingame leaderboards give you pretty narrowed information. But anyway - high skilled really hard using any voice cooperation team easy win vs random team. No matter of mech. Pro gamers also can win because of strategy and well knowing weak and strong sides of mech. In mass - battle randome vs randome IS vs Clan - more wins have clan.

Wrong! The in game stats are setup in such a way that they artificially deflate CLAN Wins and inflate Clan losses while inflating IS Wins and Deflating IS losses because it credits factions of the players on a team and not a straight up CLAN vs IS team stat. This is very simple to understand because the typical team make up of IS has many more players across different factions than the typical CLAN team. You can not simply add up all the wins and losses for the given factions and divide by 4 and 6. Need I write up a detailed explanation of how the in-game faction stats does this because your incapable of understanding the basic math behind the sugar coated stats shown for faction play to make it seem like IS does better than it actual is. CLAN does stomp IS in 80 plus percent of the faction matches due to the imbalances in tech and hit mechanics.

Edited by MadIrish, 31 January 2017 - 04:40 PM.