52 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

I hate to say this... most loyalist units... are not that good.

The popularity of a faction is one thing, but it doesn't carry over skillwise. The units with the most skill tend to end up being Mercs, and there's honestly no real incentive to be a Loyalist in a faction. This is mostly a PGI problem in the sense of making Loyalists have no value (and it's not like there's any benefit to being a specific faction either).


But even if we ignore all these other silly reasons... the core problem is not Mercs. It starts with PGI, but also on players and units/groups that are unwilling to work together. That above all else is what most teams lack (whether it be 12-PUGs or 12-man unit of players). The difference between not exerting teamwork and actually doing it is night and day and is the only core reason why lopsided stuff like spawn camping happens.

[Kin3ticX]

I try to be carebear and make fancy guides but even I still cant deal with carrying players doing sub 500 damage and such. I just move on to greener pastures just like any like minded player would.

This is why the CW talent flows into the merc units in particular which people are upset about. The talent and the like minded players gravitate to each other.

The good players sometimes just give up because nobody would take their advice.

However, if more players/units emulated the most successful ones, there would be more sharks and fewer baby seals so to speak.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 27 January 2017 - 10:48 PM.

[Pat Kell]

So many snowflakes....What I don't understand is why teams, who are playing the mode as it was intended to be played, should be forced to limit their effectiveness so that people who want to drop solo can avoid being stomped? I really think you are approaching this problem from the wrong angle. If you want more loyalists, try removing the desertion penalty, reducing it or upping the pay out. There are other options as well I am sure but hurting people who want to play together is a non-starter for me.

Don't want to get stomped? you have 3 options as I see it, git gud, drop in QP or join a team and try to follow some sort of plan. Option 3 is the only really viable one though because I have seen a lot of very very good players get stomped in CW when they drop solo and lets face it, QP tends to be a crap shoot since the MM will eventually let anyone play anyone if you are searching long enough.

[Lupis Volk]

Reza Malin, on 27 January 2017 - 08:37 AM, said:

Ok so i am sick of seeing the same crappy posts by the same small minded people, basically saying, in roundabout or variously veiled manners, "git gud".

That is the problem with FP, although there are others, this is the worst. But it has a double edge. Pugs who refuse to learn, team up with units let alone speak to them and listen in a match as also equally to blame.

Edited by Lupis Volk, 27 January 2017 - 11:22 PM.

[Reza Malin]

James Argent, on 27 January 2017 - 12:05 PM, said:

It isn't that 'git gud' (they should get spellcheck, too) isn't a desired goal. It's that it's all too often used to dismiss ANY concern and shoot down ANY idea. It indicates a total lack of concern for the overall health of the game, which is not here solely to cater to the electronic phallus stroking of a few who would evidently rather see the game shut down than take any steps to make it accessible to more players. Ideas are presented to help players 'get good' but every time, instead of discussing the merits of the ideas, someone throws out the same lame (subtext added) 'Nah, just git gud on your own using methods that worked for me but wouldn't necessarily work for everyone and conditions which may not even exist in the game anymore.' If these people really are that 'gud,' wouldn't they still be 'gud' if something changes to make things more competitive?

This.

[Reza Malin]

xX PUG Xx, on 27 January 2017 - 11:26 AM, said:

Over the years I have seen soooo many posts like this. Can anyone remember the cries of "12 mans are ruining this game" and utter outrage at players looking to build or demonstrate their teamwork in a team based game? The many "show us where the premade touched you on the Commando doll" comments? That is where the seperare solo and group queue originated from; the difference in CW / FW /FP (Yes I've played in all of them) is that the mode is designed primarily around TEAM play.

If a player CHOOSES to drop as a solo pilot in this environment they are expressing their consent to play in what is SUPPOSED to be the "End Game", the "Hard" mode, the battle ground for "Teams". If they have insufficient skill to play as a solo in this environment there is noone to blame but themselves; these forums are awash with information on 'Mechs, builds, tactical information and would you believe it? Teams or more accurately units willing to help players looking to get into FP. These big bad units, both Loyalist and Mercenary regularly advertise in the forums, the solo pilot that actually invests tge time to look can trip over a half dozen in their own timezone within a matter of minutes of reading.

So your comment on players with lower skills needing to "git gud" isn't entirely inaccurate, the simple fact of life is that if you want to win at something you need to get better at it and the better you are the more often you will win. In terms of MWO and more precisely FP, the equalizer in many matches is the teamwork; if one side works better together then they will most likely either win or at the very least have a close, hard fight with the other team.

What my experience has shown me over the years is that the players in most teams/units are naturally teamwork orientated and therefore are able to perform better in that type of environment; regardless of bring in the same unit or not they can integrate into a "team" and perform to the benefit of that team. What your suggestion on limiting group size does is punish this type of player for the audacity to want to group up with his or her friends and teammates in the area of the game that was designed/pitched/advertised for them.

Personally I have no problem with pilots dropping solo in FP as I do it myself, what I have problem with is players expecting everyone else to change or limit themselves for their benefit. If I drop into FP solo then I know I have to accept that I need to play as well as I can and that sometimes that may not be good enough. It is not the fault of the 12 man group on the other side, it was my own choice to not group up with friends or check one of the many community TeamSpeak servers or even use the LFG function. It. Was. My. Choice and I either played like a superstar or got stomped like a bug. Either way I shake it off, either look for some friends that are online, drop again and try to improve or go drop in the mode designed specifically for me to play solo Quick Play.




OK this turned into a rant but I'm fed up with this sort of thing.

*EDIT* IDI and many other "Merc" units are hardly Elite, a lot of us are merely a group of friends that are looking to have fun playing a game together. The improved teamwork helps with this but the majority simply have a laugh and take the pi... er, mickey. For us, this is what makes the game fun; win or lose

Pug, you are talking shite here mate, and your quasi elitist attitude, veiled as "mates having banter" is not cutting it.

Firstly, i bet you read about 2 lines of my post, and then went straight into standard elitist MWO player rhetoric about people being stomped by premades, and all the catchy cliche lines we have heard before from all the other studenty fuckwits trying to impress their unit circlejerk mates on the forums.

At no point did i directly complain about being stomped by premades. Even if i get stomped dropping solo, i can usually make 1k damage. I have been in an organised unit before. I have played the game since open beta. I am not new or inexperienced, and can hold my own in any class of mech. So keep your usual potato rhetoric in your **** passage where it belongs.

I put an idea across, and wanted feedback. Instead i got half the replies being the usual veteran unit crap, about people having to follow their footsteps or go play a different game.

Lets be clear here, i am trying to think of a way to make the game more enjoyable for less experienced players. If you don't agree with parts of my post, then discuss it, like grown men. Not kids in the schoolyard trying to impress their pals.

Or you can just carry on playing with the same tiny population of freaks that think they own this game, and make another 2 years worth of threads about player retention and potato skills.

justcallme A S H, on 27 January 2017 - 02:16 PM, said:

Another 'punish' merc thread without any actual understanding of the game or the greater issues it'll cause.

Sigh.

Great chat mate, thanks for coming.

[Reza Malin]

Zito, on 27 January 2017 - 10:54 AM, said:

The negative experience you describe is what got me to stay in this game earlier on. Its a very challenging game if you are new. Its not for weak game hoppers. Every good player I know in this game has a competitive nature. They were driven by the challenge and did what it took to be good.

You reject "git gud", but isn't that the idea of a game? Who the hell wants to play a game that you are instantly the best. Anyone that wants that needs to be playing Tic-Tac-Toe Online.

I am not saying they should be made to feel instantly good, i am saying it needs to be more of an environment where they feel encouraged to stick around and tough it out.

Right now, looking at it as a player who doesn't have the same problems a new player does, i don't see much of anything that would make me stick around if i was new.

The proof is in the pudding, where has the current system got us as far as player retention goes? Nowhere. While git gud, live fast, die young, leave a good looking corpse may have worked for you Zito, and me and other people to make us ride out the learning curve, my gut tells me that is the exception and not the rule.

If we want the game to truly prosper, then we need to accept that and find ways to make it more open to all skill levels. I feel mixing teams with new players and veteran players, by choice rather than random fallout of matchmaking. The disparity is when you get a 12 man team of veterans against a 12 man team of new players, which happens regularly.

If instead it could be made to work with 4 or 8 veterans on each side, in groups of 4 and then the rest as new players or pugs, i think it could be interesting and a good way for newer players to learn. The best time for inexperienced pilots to pick up new information is when they are in the minority on a team not the majority. If they see 2 lances of tagged players, and their own lance is random, they know they are "the random lance". They will be more inclined to look around and see what the more experienced players are doing. As opposed to what happens now, where you often get a mish mash of tagged players and no one knows who or what anyone is saying or whether to take them serious.

People here might think they are hot shite and that their poo doesn't stink because they wear a particular tag, and that randoms shut sit up and listen in FP pug matches. The reality check is, a lot of the newer players won't know or care who you are, if you are mixed in with a load of randoms.

My idea was by limiting merc group size to fill this gap, as the word mercenary implies. Not to run pure 12 mans like any house or clan unit should be. This seems to be unpopular with some, and that is fair enough. So bite me. Give some feedback and offer something else then, other than git gud, my way or the highway which we have sustained and maintained for a couple of years now with no noticeable positive effect.

I want people to come and play the game i love and have fun too, basically.

That is the overall problem with FP and its popularity.

Edited by Reza Malin, 28 January 2017 - 12:37 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

Deathlike, on 27 January 2017 - 10:16 PM, said:

I hate to say this... most loyalist units... are not that good.

The popularity of a faction is one thing, but it doesn't carry over skillwise. The units with the most skill tend to end up being Mercs, and there's honestly no real incentive to be a Loyalist in a faction.

So much this.

I've seen a bunch of loyalists tonight. Mass LRM WHK fest... Merc, in terms of a "career" right now, is where it is as. Most of the player base that is half decent, see's this and has gone this way.

Kin3ticX, on 27 January 2017 - 10:38 PM, said:

I try to be carebear and make fancy guides but even I still cant deal with carrying players doing sub 500 damage and such. I just move on to greener pastures just like any like minded player would.

This is why the CW talent flows into the merc units in particular which people are upset about. The talent and the like minded players gravitate to each other.

Again, so much truth it's ridiculous.

54MR has 104 players. We have players of all skill. Some veterans, some new. But that's it, people learn if they want and Merc units (playing all tech) gives people a chance to learn all facets of the game.

[Mordent Hex]

95% of the time I lose in FP its because of lack of team work and "Gasp" no one using voip or even the chat feature. Its like any team sport in the world. Your only as good as your weakest player, and anyone can be "good" but if your not working as a team and communicating your a handicap and even worse a liability. Team's don't kill solo players, Teamwork does. You can fight it tooth and nail but that's really all it is. That wont change if is 4,8,or 12 players dropping together and it doesn't matter if your loyalist or Merc, the rule is the same.

But that's my two cents on the matter and I'm only a long time Scrub.

[Reza Malin]

justcallme A S H, on 28 January 2017 - 12:31 AM, said:

54MR has 104 players. We have players of all skill. Some veterans, some new. But that's it, people learn if they want and Merc units (playing all tech) gives people a chance to learn all facets of the game.

Woopee fecking do mate, your unit has 104 players. Lets count up all the regular active units and see how many players they have as well.

Then put them all into a big hat, though lets be honest it won't need to be too big, and count up what a huge community we have that take part in FP, the best game mode this game has to offer.

Then lets look at all the players who theoretically should be playing this game now, and should be rolling FP by now based on how many people have installed and played.

Tally all that up and what have you got.............*flutters a top hat in one hand*........... THE SAME BAG of ELITISM WE ALWAYS HAD.

The old, "join a unit, git gud, expand your horizon, raise your skill ceiling" mentality, DOESNT WORK. Its been said, over and over now, since forever. Yet i hazard a guess we have barely any more people consistently playing than we always had. Even with a steam launch, of a F2P game. This game should be overflowing with players.

One of the problems here, is that a lot of the experienced players think it is anything but their fault, and that they are simply some alpha male type who is rising above the herd. Its a joke.

The fact is, its just a complete dogshite system, and it needs to be changed somehow to make the game more accessible. I put forward an idea, to discuss the issue. Im all ears to something other than git gud, my unit rocks, and crappy anecdotes about pathetic FP matches we have all seen too many of.

If however, a lot of people here, are happy with exactly what we have now, then do speak up and tell me.

Edited by Reza Malin, 28 January 2017 - 12:51 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

Reza Malin, on 28 January 2017 - 12:50 AM, said:

Woopee fecking do mate, your unit has 104 players. Lets count up all the regular active units and see how many players they have as well.

Yet we have maybe 20 semi-active FP players. The next unit member to me on the leaderboard is like 350... I'm top 50.

How does that mean that Mercs are a problem in FP? Fact is, it doesn't mean anything.

Saying mercs are the issue in FP is nothing more than uneducated rubbish.

[Reza Malin]

justcallme A S H, on 28 January 2017 - 01:32 AM, said:

Saying mercs are the issue in FP is nothing more than uneducated rubbish.

Ok maybe saying mercs are THE issue was overzealous. There is an issue with how nearly everyone decent plays merc though.

Sue me, im human.

However im still waiting for you to come here and add something, or even respond directly with something other than "duh you are stupid" with no discussion or justification, rather than just rolling round on that big bandwagon you love so much with all your other merc unit circlejerk bosom buddies. Only thing missing is a screenshot of a scoreboard from one of your "solo" drops.

justcallme A S H, on 28 January 2017 - 01:32 AM, said:

Yet we have maybe 20 semi-active FP players. The next unit member to me on the leaderboard is like 350... I'm top 50.

How does that mean that Mercs are a problem in FP? Fact is, it doesn't mean anything.

How does it not mean anything? What it means, is that the game is full of hardcore battletech nerds and no one else can be bothered to stick around long enough to learn how to play the game properly.

Edited by Reza Malin, 28 January 2017 - 01:57 AM.

[Carl Vickers]

If he picks small parts to comment on its because of the rest is just ramble. You lost pretty much any point you had because of hyperbole and you admitted it, post can be closed now.

[Reza Malin]

Carl Vickers, on 28 January 2017 - 01:57 AM, said:

If he picks small parts to comment on its because of the rest is just ramble. You lost pretty much any point you had because of hyperbole and you admitted it, post can be closed now.

Classic elitist MWO player right here. Just like how you think you own the game, you think you can own the forums now.

You sound upset about something. Yet, you still aren't a moderator, so pipe down.

[Reza Malin]

Carl Vickers, on 28 January 2017 - 01:57 AM, said:

If he picks small parts to comment on its because of the rest is just ramble. You lost pretty much any point you had because of hyperbole and you admitted it, post can be closed now.

Ok so, you like to chip in with no substance, explain why this is just ramble?

"The old, "join a unit, git gud, expand your horizon, raise your skill ceiling" mentality, DOESNT WORK. Its been said, over and over now, since forever. Yet i hazard a guess we have barely any more people consistently playing than we always had. Even with a steam launch, of a F2P game. This game should be overflowing with players.

One of the problems here, is that a lot of the experienced players think it is anything but their fault, and that they are simply some alpha male type who is rising above the herd. Its a joke.

The fact is, its just a complete dogshite system, and it needs to be changed somehow to make the game more accessible. I put forward an idea, to discuss the issue. Im all ears to something other than git gud, my unit rocks, and crappy anecdotes about pathetic FP matches we have all seen too many of."

Rather than simply putting down anything you don't like. You know this is a discussion forum right?

Or are you upset because this is you:

"...a lot of the experienced players think it is anything but their fault, and that they are simply some alpha male type who is rising above the herd."

Did i break your immersion?

Edited by Reza Malin, 28 January 2017 - 02:12 AM.

[Carl Vickers]

Lol, you call me upset and you had to reply more than once to make a point of it, even bolded some parts, methinks the lady doth protest too much.

Please show us on the little mech where the Merc units touched you.

[Reza Malin]

Carl Vickers, on 28 January 2017 - 02:20 AM, said:

Lol, you call me upset and you had to reply more than once to make a point of it, even bolded some parts, methinks the lady doth protest too much.

Please show us on the little mech where the Merc units touched you.

I bolded some parts, so you might be able to put together any kind of contribution to a discussion.

You could have just said you aren't capable.

[Carl Vickers]

Lol, not capable, just like your piloting skills by the sound of it, ill leave you with a git gud, sounds like you need it. GG

[LordNothing]

i think i would do something like that but in a less abrasive way. i think that units who say they want to fight equally matched units instead of pugs should be actually able to put their money where there mouth is. to that end you implement a unit rivalries feature. any unit simply can declare war on any other unit (or all the units for that matter) and have scheduled 12 man conflicts, potentially allowing betting of unit assets (mc, cbills, planets, etc). these games are worth 3 or 4 times as much as a normal game and can allow units to progress at a faster rate. at the same time you require like 50% more games to flip a planet, so units who choose to play the easy way, farming pugs, they make less progress, and are put behind in the planet securing game.

this is probibly not enough on its own, and will depend on play schedules. so there are going to be situations where pug vs unit is the only option. when faced with this pugs usually switch to qp for the day, and if there is a lot of unit disparity then nobody gets any planets. so when these situations arise you have some kind of honor system that units can opt into in order to trade greater rewards (higher capture rate) for a handycap (something like tonnage caps or fewer waves or something). granted its totally opt in, but a unit that chooses this option may very well be the one to win the planet. this encourages good units to try to do the same job with less, giving the pugs a little bit of leeway, and netting them larger rewards in the process. this does not however interfere with casual units who probibly arent going to do enough work to flip a planet anyway. they might take the easy road and fight pugs, but ive won more than my fair share of games against such units and im just t2.

the only fundamental difference between mercs and loyalists are the way rewards are distributed. and so mercs might get an underweight bonus as they dont have to haul as much tonnage to the battle field, resulting in a big purse of cbills at the end of a victorious match. loyalist might get extra lp as they are considered spec ops. freelancers dont really have any purpose anymore and i still fully believe that this needs to change. it should serve three purposes, new player experience, training, and dumping ground for perpetual potato players. they need a tree and some sort of system like cadet bonuses that need to be completed in order to take call to arms drops (and always used as space filler for 6+ man groups), and for eventual selection of another career. players who stay in that mode should have their own slightly less lucrative tree. they would get their own bucket too, it would be 8v8 + mixtech (you may have clan and is players on your team, but you must choose one or the other, no mixed decks). it might also permit trial mechs where the other 2 career paths prohibit it. im thinking limit 5 games per day unless premium time, to help lessen the server cost of running fewer players.

Edited by LordNothing, 28 January 2017 - 02:33 AM.

[Carl Vickers]

Pgi gives people a warning when they first try to play FP, if you dont like it you don't have to play the game mode, it really is as simple as that.

P.s. Had some awesome matches against 228 and others today, best matches in a long while.