29 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

So i just discovered that using smaller launchers, either SSRM or SRMs, or LRM5s, placed first before the larger launchers shrinks the ears.

Like so: TBR-S 4x ER ML + 2x SSRM6 (300) + 2x LRM15A (720) Or TBR-S 2x LRM15A + 2x LRM5A + 4x ERML, 4 DHS, 1260 LRM Ammo

So, is shrinking that hitbox worth it?

[WolvesX]

I like my EbonJag / TBR best without ears.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

I mean, if you're building a missile based build in which you can easily benefit by that, might as well do it.

[Hit the Deck]

Your builds matter more than the ears....

[Tristan Winter]

It's a weird question, because you're asking about the optimal way to play an LRM Timber Wolf. The answer you will get from most competitive players who can speak with some authority is probably... don't.

Personally, I'm going to say that if you're going to commit to an LRM Timber Wolf, go with 4xLRM5. You'll probably do more damage when you have more tonnage for other weapons and your profile is not so big. The best Clan LRM carriers are the ones that actually smash people with other weapons in addition to LRMs. Like my 4xPPC, 4xLRM5 Warhawk. Mmmm...

If you combine streaks and LRMs on a Timber Wolf, you have - in my opinion - gone full potato. Never go full potato.

Edited by Tristan Winter, 27 January 2017 - 04:33 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

Hit the Deck, on 27 January 2017 - 04:30 AM, said:

Your builds matter more than the ears....

You do understand that smaller ears mean smaller profiles? It's like if urbie's ballistic arm was shrunk. Or if King Crab's torso was shrunk. etc. etc.

It's whether the build shift worth the profile being streamlined.

Tristan Winter, on 27 January 2017 - 04:32 AM, said:

It's a weird question, because you're asking about the optimal way to play an LRM Timber Wolf. The answer you will get from most competitive players who can speak with some authority is probably... don't.

Personally, I'm going to say that if you're going to commit to an LRM Timber Wolf, go with 4xLRM5. You'll probably do more damage when you have more tonnage for other weapons and your profile is not so big. The best Clan LRM carriers are the ones that actually smash people with other weapons in addition to LRMs. Like my 4xPPC, 4xLRM5 Warhawk. Mmmm...

If you combine streaks and LRMs on a Timber Wolf, you have - in my opinion - gone full potato. Never go full potato.

My main build is actually: TBR-S 4x LRM10A (1080) + 4x ER-ML, I could probably shift to TBR-S 2x LRM10A + 2x LRM5A + 4x MPL

Edited by The6thMessenger, 27 January 2017 - 04:38 AM.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

The Timberwolf/Madcat only has 2 ears, this is a monstrosity created by PGI

De-earing your Timberwolf/Madcat is also heresy

Edited by Shiroi Tsuki, 27 January 2017 - 04:42 AM.

[Juodas Varnas]

Shiroi Tsuki, on 27 January 2017 - 04:42 AM, said:

The Timberwolf/Madcat only has 2 ears, this is a monstrosity created by PGI

De-earing your Timberwolf/Madcat is also heresy

[Shiroi Tsuki]

Juodas Varnas, on 27 January 2017 - 04:46 AM, said:

Not mad enough

[Mole]

My TBR has ears. Would it be more optimal if it didn't? Probably. But then it would lose its iconic look.

[Vellron2005]

OP, don't listen to LRM haters..

I use plenty of LRM boats, Timberwolves were my first ones..

TBR's don't have many missile slots, so if you wanna LRM boat, you gotta use big launchers..

I've found 4 x LRM10, 2 x LRM15 or 2 x LRM 20 to all be effective. LRM 5's are too small to be effective on the TBR, and are better suited for the Mad Dog.

Even with two 20's, you still have plenty of space for secondary weapons.. my double 20 uses 4 x Medium pulse lasers.. Overall, it's my second most damaging mech. (Executioner is first, and Mad Dog probably third)

My currently most effective TBR LRM boat build is 4 x LRM10 + 4 CERMLAS. It's great for pugging and FW..

To support my claim as an effective FW LRM user, lately, I overall "do my part" in FW, with at least 4 kills (many of them solo kills or KMDD's).

I try to take out as many mechs as I put in

Also, one thing you gotta know about Timberwolves.. the ears don't really matter, since your "snout" is so big that everything will go to your torsos anyway.. if you LRM boat, then you're probably behind ample cover.. if you're not, your LRM boating wrong.. And for those special close range times.. if you're an LRM boat, you will take more damage than you put out anyway, so it does not really matter.


Note:

I don't use tag, narc or artemis. I don't need to. All you gotta do is pick your fights and land on the right map. FW lets you change dropdecks you we can now finally be prepared!

Edited by Vellron2005, 27 January 2017 - 05:04 AM.

[WolvesX]

Vellron2005, on 27 January 2017 - 04:57 AM, said:

---

If you say "boat" do you mean like LRM30 + normal weapons or LRM 60?

[El Bandito]

The6thMessenger, on 27 January 2017 - 04:33 AM, said:

It's whether the build shift worth the profile being streamlined.

My main build is actually: TBR-S 4x LRM10A (1080) + 4x ER-ML, I could probably shift to TBR-S 2x LRM10A + 2x LRM5A + 4x MPL

Not worth to switch. You see, Ghost Heat is shared with all LRM launcher types. Which means your 2xLRM10 + 2xLRM5 build will have the Ghost Heat equivalent of 4xLRM10. You will be losing damage while still firing with same heat.

That's the reason I do not use my 2xLRM10 + 3xLRM5 Stalker-5M anymore. Chicken livered noobs who were too scared of LRMs had complained to PGI about the effectiveness of mixed launcher builds (players used to augment their larger LRM launchers with LRM5s, to avoid GH) in 2014, and PGI had linked the LRM Ghost Heat afterwards.

Edited by El Bandito, 27 January 2017 - 05:17 AM.

[Kasumi Sumika]

I recently bought a Timby and I build with 2 LRM15A, 5 ERMPL. . Because I want to play Timby without destroy it's aesthetic. So far this build works well with me. Attack with LRM when enemy in cover or open area and because of the speed of Timby, I can also pushing with my 5 ERMPL. It's fun to me to use because it can play on all range.

[Reza Malin]

Tristan Winter, on 27 January 2017 - 04:32 AM, said:

The best Clan LRM carriers are the ones that actually smash people with other weapons in addition to LRMs. Like my 4xPPC, 4xLRM5 Warhawk. Mmmm...

If you combine streaks and LRMs on a Timber Wolf, you have - in my opinion - gone full potato. Never go full potato.

While a mixed LRM/direct fire weapons build can be reasonably effective, it only really happens when you are rolling the enemy anyway.

Otherwise, LRM's are sub optimal. You would be better off with your warhawk just using PPCs and getting more shots off without overheating, while being able to break your aim to move and torso twist.

Facetanking to hold locks for LRM'5s over PPFLD weapons is not optimal. Each to their own though.

Same as the TBR, if i was going to use LRMS with it i would use 10's or 15's, so when i do get the chance for a lock and a shot, the initial opening is maximised before the target seeks cover and takes evasive action.

I honestly laugh at LRM 5's coming in, as i get more time to get to cover before i take much damage. Or, i observe that my target is only firing 5's and i just go at them, because i know i can out trade them with my own direct fire weapons while they facetank me.

So many reasons not to use LRM like this. The only real application for LRMs, is in large numbers combined with tag and another mech using narc, from pre planned positions.

Unless as i already mentioned, you are on a rickroll, in which case its irrelevant you could be using 10 flamers and still make yourself look effective.

Edited by Reza Malin, 27 January 2017 - 05:28 AM.

[Reza Malin]

Vellron2005, on 27 January 2017 - 04:57 AM, said:

OP, don't listen to LRM haters..

Unless you are one of the people who boats LRMs, without a tag, expecting to be effective from the direct fire trades of your teammates while they lose armour.

FP is a battle of attrition numbers game. If you have 12 mechs advancing, putting direct fire onto components of called mechs, they should beat a team of 10 mechs doing the same, but with 2 mechs at the back firing inaccurate spread damage over all components.

I don't understand how this isn't obvious.

As a clan merc, when in FP, i simply aim at every IS side torso i see. Majority of the time, it resuslts in death on side torso. If i was using LRMS instead, i am spreading all my damage over both side torsos, centre torso, and arms.

Can you to see the massive difference in effectiveness?

Not only that, once the rest of your team are dead or scattered and no longer getting locks, you and any other LRM boats are basically sitting ducks for the rest of that initial 12 man deployment.

Edited by Reza Malin, 27 January 2017 - 05:36 AM.

[Hit the Deck]

Kasumi Sumika, on 27 January 2017 - 05:24 AM, said:

I recently bought a Timby and I build with 2 LRM15A, 5 ERMPL....

I'd lose the TC1 and cAP if I were you.

[Kasumi Sumika]

Hit the Deck, on 27 January 2017 - 05:35 AM, said:

I'd lose the TC1 and cAP if I were you.

Why? I think those are essensial for LRM since it have many buffs.

[Tristan Winter]

Reza Malin, on 27 January 2017 - 05:27 AM, said:

While a mixed LRM/direct fire weapons build can be reasonably effective, it only really happens when you are rolling the enemy anyway.
Otherwise, LRM's are sub optimal. You would be better off with your warhawk just using PPCs and getting more shots off without overheating, while being able to break your aim to move and torso twist.

I agree. The min-maxed PPC Warhawk with nothing but PPCs, heatsinks and maybe a targeting computer is the best alternative. But if you're trying to make a Warhawk with LRMs, then you have a few alternatives:

• Use as many hardpoints as possible, as big LRM launchers as possible. E.g. 4xLRM15
  
• Use as many hardpoints as possible, but only LRM5s.
  
• Use a couple of hardpoints, and big LRM launchers. E.g. 2xLRM20
  
• Use a couple of hardpoints, but only LRM5s.

Of these alternatives, I think the best alternative is to boat LRM5's and make sure you have good direct fire weapons instead of 4 measly medium lasers. 4xCLRM5's is 4 tons plus ammo. Not a huge investment for a Warhawk (or a Timber Wolf). If you pick 2xLRM10 or 2xLRM15 instead, it's 5 or 7 tons, respectively, plus ammo. And the reward isn't really that great, because you 2 long streams of missiles instead of 4 short streams.


The reward of having 4x5 LRMs with 1-2 tons of ammo is that you can fire in situations when you don't have LOS. Not necessarily because you're just hiding, but maybe there's fighting going on in a nearby valley (e.g. on Canyon Network) where you can't reasonably assist without running through open cover.

There are conceivable situations where having 4x5 LRM5s is more useful than more heatsinks. However, in most situations it's better to have more heatsinks or direct fire weapons. So the 4xPPC Warhawk is definitely better than the 4xPPC + 4xLRM5 Warhawk... most of the time.

Reza Malin, on 27 January 2017 - 05:27 AM, said:

I honestly laugh at LRM 5's coming in, as i get more time to get to cover before i take much damage. Or, i observe that my target is only firing 5's and i just go at them, because i know i can out trade them with my own direct fire weapons while they facetank me.

No, LRM5 streams are shorter. You only get more time to get to cover if they're chain-firing LRM5s. And this is only a factor if you want to run to cover, which isn't always the case when people are brawling. For example, if 2 medium mechs are locked in a 1v1 brawl along a flank, then neither mech can disengage and neither mech is likely to stand still in cover. They'd rather eat LRMs than make themselves vulnerable to the other medium mechs.

And I would never use LRM5s if I had direct LOS to use PPCs, obviously.

Reza Malin, on 27 January 2017 - 05:27 AM, said:

So many reasons not to use LRM like this. The only real application for LRMs, is in large numbers combined with tag and another mech using narc, from pre planned positions.

I kind of agree, but I think IS mechs do this a lot better than Clan mechs. Those long streams of LRM15s or LRM20s are even more situational than IS LRMs. If IS LRM boats are feast or famine, Clan LRM boats are doubly so.

Edited by Tristan Winter, 27 January 2017 - 05:53 AM.

[Hit the Deck]

Kasumi Sumika, on 27 January 2017 - 05:41 AM, said:

Why? I think those are essensial for LRM since it have many buffs.

To put 2 more DHS because the LRMs aren't the main weapon.

The cAP is essential for Streaks but not for LRMs IMO, and the the space for TC1 could be used for DHS or 1t ammo which I think would be more useful.

A bit off tangent, I think I'd use cERMLs instead of cMPLs because of the former's longer range and lighter weight but I dunno.