11 replies to this topic

[Oversight99]

I'm a founder of the game that played a little after launch, then some of my other games came out with new content and I moved on for a while. I just started playing MWO again a few days ago.

When I last played, the game was very different. I'm happy to say that I like most of the changes, though I do find them confusing and poorly documented at times.

One change I don't really understand has me baffled. That's the existence of the four mech "drop decks" for faction warfare. I've played a minimal number of matches (maybe 3), so maybe I don't understand... but doesn't each player having four mechs make the game much more like a death match in a FPS instead of a strategy game?

I'm mainly thinking about the fact that you can clear an area and advance on, just to suddenly have brand new mechs dropping in right behind your damaged lances. Killing enemies and clearing an area doesn't work because your lance is often doomed because a totally fresh set is now attaching you from the rear. Killing enemies to take territory causes you to suddenly have enemies on both sides.

Also, people do weird things because they have respawns. They make sjicidal charges that they wouldn't ever make if they only had one mech.

Finally, it makes games last longer, which isn't always desirable if one team is clearly better than the other.

Can anyone enlighten me... what's the purpose of having multiple mechs like this? The only thing I can figure out is to have some impact on tonnage, but it seems to me that should be by team totals not by my individual drop deck.

What am I missing?

Thanks!

[justcallme A S H]

How is it not about strategy?

You have 4 mechs, you can turn a tide of battle after a good/bad wave etc. Doesn't happen every game, but in some games the lead goes back/forth over the course of the match/waves/reinforcements etc. You can drop a wave of lights to change it up etc etc.

Makes perfect sense. Just play more.

If people are making dumb charges, that is just how some PUGs are - stupid. Ignore them, they never change.

[SmokeGuar]

Starting point is 12 man push to reach objective. What this objective is may change from game to game and from team to team. Objective may also change during game. As an example on Invasion map, starting point may be destroying oppo mechs, if this fails, main goal may shift to primarily killing Omega and dealing oppo mechs as secondary.

Unfortunately many players totally ignore 12 team as basic form and treat game as single player experience which main goal is personal stat padding. Makes one happy, eleven unhappy.

[MischiefSC]

The strategy of what you bring and drop in what order is a big layer of strategy that the rest of the game doesn't have.

[Davegt27]

the only logical reason to have all these Mechs is to have prolonged battles

originally PGI wanted one Mech per class
so you would have to drop in one light, one medium, and so one

so that's probably why there are four Mechs

the try hards shot down the idea of having one Mech per class

the tactics revolves around the type of people that play the game
FPS mentality is so prevalent no matter what PGI does the players just want to run to the center of the map and start
shooting

I picture the majority of players as the Kids I used to see at Game Stop trading in there $55 dollar game for like $10
basically to dumb to realize they are getting ripped off

not saying PGI is ripping them off just that they don't seem to see the reality of the game and modes


GLHF

Edited by Davegt27, 31 January 2017 - 07:39 PM.

[Starbomber109]

It expands the types of builds and strategies different 12 man teams can run.

Lets say for example you're a clan team and you decided that on the first wave, you were going to bring 12 100ton Kodiak assault mechs. These mechs can totally blow away any IS mech with their combined firepower.

The IS team also has a spam strategy, though they spammed 50-55 ton brawlers, they advance through cover and ambush the enemy, thus trading their 50 ton mechs for 100 ton mechs. Maybe they don't kill all of them, but they mess them up, allowing the next wave to finish them easily, and hopefully mop up the next wave too. I've seen light-rushes (12 arctic cheetas) try to effect the same thing. Though sometimes teams use them to kill generators, invasion maps are getting scarce in FW (at least early in the night)

You can also have a different selection of mechs for different stages of the game. Lets take for example Arctic City. it starts off as a long range poke war, but can degenerate into a brawl real fast, so you need a selection of mechs for either scenario.

[Oversight99]

Starbomber109, on 31 January 2017 - 08:44 PM, said:

It expands the types of builds and strategies different 12 man teams can run.

Lets say for example you're a clan team and you decided that on the first wave, you were going to bring 12 100ton Kodiak assault mechs. These mechs can totally blow away any IS mech with their combined firepower.

The IS team also has a spam strategy, though they spammed 50-55 ton brawlers, they advance through cover and ambush the enemy, thus trading their 50 ton mechs for 100 ton mechs. Maybe they don't kill all of them, but they mess them up, allowing the next wave to finish them easily, and hopefully mop up the next wave too. I've seen light-rushes (12 arctic cheetas) try to effect the same thing. Though sometimes teams use them to kill generators, invasion maps are getting scarce in FW (at least early in the night)

You can also have a different selection of mechs for different stages of the game. Lets take for example Arctic City. it starts off as a long range poke war, but can degenerate into a brawl real fast, so you need a selection of mechs for either scenario.

Thanks for the detailed reply. I guess I can see that as a strategy. So, drop decks are basically taking away some of the strategy during actual gameplay in order to replace it with strategy in building the deck.

If that's the way the game is, that's the way it must be played But I miss the strategic elements of battlefield movement.

What I mean is this:

With only one mech per person:

Each team is dropping with 12 mechs, three lances. In general, one is likely a light/medium high speed lance for recon and quick support, one is a medium/heavy to help flank, and one is heavy/assault. Ideally, the total mass of the drop is one of the rules of the conflict, insuring that not everyone can be in an assault. The combination of ranged and brawlers will vary depending on overall strategy. In the case of this example, it doesn't matter much.

Skipping the scouting and attempts to maneuver, let's skip ahead to the initial major clash. At this point it is still 12 on 12.

In this clash, one team gets the better of the other. We are at 9 vs 6 after the clash, with most mechs wounded and some missing weapons. The 6 still have an objective to worry about, so they retreat to regroup.

Now, 9 from the winning team could pursue those 6, working to use their numbers to advantage, while the 6 try to find favorable terrain to make up for their lesser numbers. Or, a portion of the 9 could try to engage and block in the 6 while a smaller lance runs off to handle an objective.

That is how it would work if each person had one mech.

With each person having a whole deck, it is much different:

Each team is dropping with 12 mechs, three lances. It is hard to know the composition of the lances as first drop mechs could be almost anything. The initial scouting and clash is likely to be, to some extent, determined by the mechs that dropped. In any case, let us pretend that the results are the same. One side is winning, with a 9 vs 6 result.

Now we run into our first major difference. The 6 may decide on a suicide rush here, knowing they will get new mechs while doing more damage to their attackers. However, they could also retreat and wait for reinforcements. For our example, we will assume they do that.

The 6 retreat. The group of 9 is now in terrible trouble. If they pursue the 6, they risk reinforcements coming in behind them and being attacked from two fronts. If a smaller force breaks off, it could find itself outnumbered by the reinforcements as well. With reinforcements coming, it is impossible to secure any area. Reinforcements can always get there.

In any case, the drop decks have completely changed how the match will play out. I can't say with authority which is better or worse overall for the game. Both have strategy both during pre-drop and during actual gameplay. The strategy is just different.

I can say this though: I miss the ability to secure areas. The idea that you secure portions of the map and move on to secure new portions is part of strategic gameplay, having reinforcements drop in can make a mess of that.

Having said that, I'm just thinking to myself now that I've really thought thru the scenarios, perhaps a good solution would be some ruleset that only allows reinforcements to drop into areas of the map that are still under control of their team. That way parts of the map could still be secured? (It would also make sure that reinforcements didn't drop into a situation where they are spawn camped.)

[KinLuu]

Just play Quickplay, which is 12 vs. 12, single life, no respawn.

It just... does not play out like you described.

[Marius Romanis]

If you want a story, here.

A planetary assault begins, Mechs drop all over the planet, as they clear their area they move to the battle your in to reinforce, everytime you die your joining the battle as a new pilot in a new mech in the "reinforcements" your not the same per with 4 mechs tadaaa

[Oversight99]

KinLuu, on 31 January 2017 - 11:34 PM, said:

Just play Quickplay, which is 12 vs. 12, single life, no respawn.

It just... does not play out like you described.

I know Strategy of any kind is often limited in quickplay

[justcallme A S H]

There is no strategy in solo QP.

It's literally every man for himself the majority of the time.

[MischiefSC]

Oversight99, on 31 January 2017 - 11:44 PM, said:

I know Strategy of any kind is often limited in quickplay

Strategy is what you work out before the match - you group up with 12 people on TS, get a general idea of what you're doing. You see the map/mode and you work out what you're likely to be doing. You adjust your drop deck to make sure you've got the best 4 tools in your box for what you're likely to be dealing with and the tonnage you have available and the team you're playing with. When you see who you're dropping against you'll settle the first, possibly the first couple of waves into a general strategy. You'll know if you're going for kills or objectives, postulate what strats the other team will likely use. For example there's some teams who really prefer long range, so you set up your strat for that.

Then you accept that you're probably going to throw all that out when the engagement starts and tactics take over. Tactics is what happens in that match and it's the real magic of FW that nothing else in MWO provides. You adjust on the fly, you likely re-evaluate what you're taking in what order and how you're going to apply it. The hallmark of a good drop caller is the ability to adjust strategy to tactics as they play out in the match and keep the team moving effectively. Tactics are things like break right, stay low and Nascar counter-clockwise, everyone compress on F6, focus target X, split push, fall back to draw enemy into a firing line set up by your respawning teammates, etc.

FW played in a casual team is a whole other game from pugging in FW. Completely different. FW played in a good team is a whole other experience from FW in a casual team and a whole other scale of gameplay than pugging in FW. Nobody is ever going to accuse me of white knighting for PGI, I'm very critical of them in a lot of ways, but the particular combination of mechs and mech design, 4 mech drop deck and 12 v 12 matches with varying objectives you usually don't know until you're under way? It's a unique, complex and incredible game experience you don't get anywhere else.

Edited by MischiefSC, 01 February 2017 - 02:24 AM.