262 replies to this topic

[TheArisen]

As ever there's some misconceptions about what would be good like people that think the Annihilator or Marauder II would be strong. Yeonne Greene wrote a dissertation on what makes a strong mech and I'd say it has relevance to this thread.

"Ideal geometry possesses a narrow torso from any angle, so the distance you have to twist to redirect damage is small and so that torso sections are difficult to isolate. There is an emphasis on frontal profile over the sides. The horizontal cross-section through the torso should be cylindrical (i.e. NTG, BK) or cruciform (i.e. RFL). Cruciform has the advantage of being able to block sides using the center provided the sides are not overly wide and/or the nose has sufficient length, without necessarily exposing the opposite side. Cylindrical has to expose one side to block the other, so unlike cruciform it must always be in motion (not as good at actual shielding).

You want shield arms, for obvious reasons. Arms that cover the entire side are best, and if they can also cover the CT given enough angle, that's fantastic.

Legs should be mounted as close to the arm socket as possible, so that it is difficult to get full damage into the ST from the side once the arm is gone.

The cockpit should be mounted at or near the top of the 'Mech so there is no material to expose before you can actually see potential hostiles. Weapons should be mounted at or near the same level as the cockpit for the same reason.

For IS energy boats, you want most of your firepower in the torsos and you need one arm you can strip completely. IMHO, I think stacking all of your Large-class lasers (assuming B&B build, not ER LL boat) in one side is horrible and that you should always split them up lets you get them all crit at once and, IMHO, the ideal layout for an IS laser boat would be [2xE LT + 1xE CT + 1xE H + 2xE RT + 3xE RA] since that spreads the LLs out across all three torso parts, allows maximum DHS into the torsos and the good arm, and gives you a bump to 57/58 damage. Lower Arm Actuator, we don't need but I don't think it hurts too much given that we're out of slots with 19x DHS on a 350 engine.

For pure IS ballistics, you again want most of your firepower in the torsos. I don't think there's necessarily one single ideal for this, since whether or not you want to use Gauss is going to play a big role, but I'd say that [2xB LT + 2xB RT + 2xB RA] would cover the vast majority of combinations you want to try. That lets you do quadruple UAC/5 with an XL, stripping an arm for tonnage. It lets you run 6x AC/5 with an XL, too, or 3x UAC/5 + 2x AC/5, or 3x AC/10. When/if we get Light ACs, hard-point count starts mattering more for ballistics because we'll have the weight for more.

For IS Energy/Ballistic combo builds, the ideal layout is something like [2xE RT + 1xB RA] to get 2xPPC + 1xGauss in with an isXL. Also good is [1xB & 1xE LT + 1xB & 1xE LT]; that's PPC-dakka. For laser-Gauss, just replace the arm on the ideal IS energy boat with 1xB and that's about as good as it gets.

Ideal IS missile layout is pretty much identical to the ideal pure ballistic layout if you have six racks, for slot reasons. Better, though, would be four racks with between six and eight energy weapons, arranged [2xE LA + 2xM LT + 2xE CT + 2xM RT + 2xE RA]. Head and feet positions for ammo, sides for JJs and DHS. That's going to give you something worthy to fight a brawl TBR."

Thoughts? Opinions?

[TheArisen]

It seems there is still some questions as to what would be the best choices for IS mechs and so this thread must live again.

[TheArisen]

LastKhan drew the Lynx!
https://mwomercs.com...d/page__st__100

[FLG 01]

The Lynx... such a wonderful Mech. Good thing it is leading the poll, although all entries are very powerful and would be happy about each and every one of them.

... but then I fear PGI will appease the MW:4 crowd by releasing the Uziel.

[Bishop Steiner]

Not really any of the Heavies on that list to my liking. For Medium, I think I'd lean Starslayer, and Assault, Gunslinger. Light? Osiris, all the way!

[Y E O N N E]

I approve of anything murdering Ravens.

I hate Ravens.

[Clownwarlord]

Quote

For the sake of discussion here are some questions you should think about:
- Which ones do you like?
- Which would be the strongest in MWO if added?
- If you had to pick one out of each class, which would you pick and why?
- Are there any mechs you feel should be here but aren't?

Lancelot
60 ton
base speed 92.7kph
Energy based load out


While nothing special to differ it from the Rifleman but one variant does stand out.

LNC25-01X has jump jets which would not only allow for it to be more mobile, but pop tart. With energy build majority it does not require tonnage to be thrown at heavier weapons or ammunition. It also as like the Rifleman has high weapon mounts so even without the jump jet variant you can still hill hump.

[Y E O N N E]

Clownwarlord, on 12 March 2017 - 08:04 PM, said:

Lancelot
60 ton
base speed 92.7kph
Energy based load out

60 tons and inferior to the Dragon Fire and Falconer.

Denied.

P.S. There are several variants of Rifleman with Jump Jets. I would rather have those if we must get a poptarting 60 tonner with high mounts, because it would look cooler.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 12 March 2017 - 08:07 PM.

[Clownwarlord]

Yeonne Greene, on 12 March 2017 - 08:07 PM, said:

60 tons and inferior to the Dragon Fire and Falconer.

Denied.

P.S. There are several variants of Rifleman with Jump Jets. I would rather have those if we must get a poptarting 60 tonner with high mounts, because it would look cooler.

UN -Denied. Those you mention are at the 75 ton range but what about a 60 ton mech or 70 ton mech in the list. Some game modes *cough* Faction Warfare have tonnage requirements.

[Clownwarlord]

Furthermore the rifleman with jump jets is Jihad era, I was trying to keep something realistic to the time zone we would be jumping to.

Also how is this meta?


Its all leg, and when you crest a hill you just sky line yourself to get your weapons over it. Why is that, because its is the closest mech to a knuckle dragger than any other. Its weapons are at foot level. Also I will go on how is this mech in the list when you have to torso twist you can't. You have to move your entire mech to shoot anything to your side. Hell the Marauder if you want something liek this pilot the Marauder. It looks better, has at least one high mounted ballistic, and has the ability to torso twist.

Edited by Clownwarlord, 12 March 2017 - 08:30 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Clownwarlord, on 12 March 2017 - 08:18 PM, said:

UN -Denied. Those you mention are at the 75 ton range but what about a 60 ton mech or 70 ton mech in the list. Some game modes *cough* Faction Warfare have tonnage requirements.

Nope, still denied. The GHR covers 70 tons pretty well, especially the new Hero version offering a ballistic in the one arm. For non-FW purposes (AKA, the majority of play), heavier is always better for Heavy 'Mechs, which is why 60 tons is right out. There is nothing you can do with 60 that you can't do better with 75.

Also, 60 tons is too close to 55 ton durability to make it worth spending a heavy slot on doing PPC pop-tarting.

Clownwarlord, on 12 March 2017 - 08:21 PM, said:

Furthermore the rifleman with jump jets is Jihad era, I was trying to keep something realistic to the time zone we would be jumping to.

Also how is this meta?


Its all leg, and when you crest a hill you just sky line yourself to get your weapons over it. Why is that, because its is the closest mech to a knuckle dragger than any other. Its weapons are at foot level.

I used to think the same thing, but it was pointed out to me that the TRO shape would never make it into MWO for the same reason the TRO art for the Nova didn't: it has to be able to twist at the torso. It would look more like this ('Mech in the back):



Granted, that makes it look little different from a Marauder, but the Marauder doesn't have ballistics in the arms and it needs ballistics in the arms to take Gauss safely. That being said, we can run 2x HPPC (assuming we get them and they do full 15) in the Marauder, so the Falconer is lower priority than the Dragon Fire.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 12 March 2017 - 08:41 PM.

[Clownwarlord]

Yeonne Greene, on 12 March 2017 - 08:37 PM, said:

Nope, still denied. The GHR covers 70 tons pretty well, especially the new Hero version offering a ballistic in the one arm. For non-FW purposes (AKA, the majority of play), heavier is always better for Heavy 'Mechs, which is why 60 tons is right out. There is nothing you can do with 60 that you can't do better with 75.

Also, 60 tons is too close to 55 ton durability to make it worth spending a heavy slot on doing PPC pop-tarting.



I used to think the same thing, but it was pointed out to me that the TRO shape would never make it into MWO for the same reason the TRO art for the Nova didn't: it has to be able to twist at the torso. It would look more like this ('Mech in the back):



Granted, that makes it look little different from a Marauder, but the Marauder doesn't have ballistics in the arms and it needs ballistics in the arms to take Gauss safely. That being said, we can run 2x HPPC (assuming we get them and they do full 15) in the Marauder, so the Falconer is lower priority than the Dragon Fire.

OK first outside of FW you have group cue in quick play which also has tonnage restrictions. So it would be beneficial to have at least 1 for every tonnage lot. Next is why not just take the Marauder, and yeah gauss can explode but then you don't have to take gauss you could take AC5 which use to go nicely with PPC and still does. That way you dont have to worry about it ST explosion. You don't have to worry about gauss charge mechanic (that is if you can't handle it). You don't have to worry about PGI and its TRO.

[Y E O N N E]

Clownwarlord, on 12 March 2017 - 08:45 PM, said:

OK first outside of FW you have group cue in quick play which also has tonnage restrictions. So it would be beneficial to have at least 1 for every tonnage lot. Next is why not just take the Marauder, and yeah gauss can explode but then you don't have to take gauss you could take AC5 which use to go nicely with PPC and still does. That way you dont have to worry about it ST explosion. You don't have to worry about gauss charge mechanic (that is if you can't handle it). You don't have to worry about PGI and its TRO.

In order?

1. In Group Queue, we wouldn't drop down to 60 tons for the Heavy players except for lulz, we'd typically keep it to 70 and ton down the Assaults and Mediums; probably already running Locusts or Spiders.

2. Having a meta 'Mech for every tonnage slot is nice, but A.) we actually have a very solid 60 tonner, and this list isn't strictly looking for poptarts and B.) this list is trying to powercreep the IS as a whole, and while we debated the Lancelot internally we decided that the other 'Mechs have priority

3. 2xPPC+Gauss for IS is already 29 tons (vice 24 tons for Clans); the optimal build on a Marauder 5M is an XL 325 with 13x DHS, 4x JJ, and 30 rounds. If you go to 2x AC/5, though, that's one more ton for the guns and two more points of heat per shot for five less points of damage. It's not horrible, and I have one built this way (I actually run less DHS and leg armor so I can armor up the left arm and split my PPCs), but it's not good enough to compete with the TBR. It's slower, has shorter range, does less PPFLD, and has no splash. Snap-shot is nice, though. The Falconer has just that much of an edge because it can bring one Gauss without worrying about it detonating in its most vulnerable location. If HPPCs dealing full 15 and Light ACs get added to MWO, this list will change significantly because a lot of the 'Mechs we have now will gain new potential (most notably the Marauder, Mauler, and Banshee).

Edit: Also, the RFL-8D is in-timeline for the FedCom Civil War and has Jump Jets.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 12 March 2017 - 09:33 PM.

[TheArisen]

If a 60t is absolutely needed I'd go with the Anvil.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Anvil

ECM, JJ, shield arms, high mounts & fast. But honestly if not for ECM you could just take a Lynx, if we ever get it.

[TheArisen]

IMO these are the two of each weight class that would have the most impact.

Lights:
Osiris, strongest option available, good fallback if Javelin fails
Nexus, notably stronger than the Commando even though that's not a huge deal

Mediums:
Lynx, likely strongest option for Meds
Starslayer, same but likely #2 best

Heavy:
Dragon Fire, hands down best ECM heavy possible
Falconer, potentially epic poptart to match up with the NGyr.

Assault:
Nightstar/Sagittarius, the assaults the IS dreams of
Fafnir/Gunslinger, ecm + gauss/hvy ppc sniper

[TheArisen]

With 74 votes here are the results so far.

Lights: Osiris continues dominance with 44, Razorback is 2nd here with 16 & then Nexus at 14

Mediums: Lynx with 21 followed closely by Men Shen & Starslayer at 20

Heavies: Flashman has 17 followed by the Falconer at 14, Dragonfire & Onslaught have 11 each

Assaults: Fafnir leads with 23, Sagitaire is at 21 with Nightstar trailing with 12

Thanks to all those who have voted and for anyone that hasn't voted yet your vote would be appreciated.
https://mwomercs.com...chs-for-the-is/

[FLG 01]

FLG 01, on 12 March 2017 - 07:52 PM, said:

... but then I fear PGI will appease the MW:4 crowd by releasing the Uziel.

... and that is exactly what happened. Plus the worst case of assault Mechs, the Annihilator.

It is official: PGI hates the IS. I have no explanation for those useless choices.

[Y E O N N E]

I ******* give up. I hope sales flop on the IS 'Mechs.

[NRP]

Edit: Nevermind

Edited by NRP, 14 March 2017 - 11:51 AM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Uziel? HELL ******* YEAH!
Cougar? DAMN YES!
Mad Cat Mk II? Sure!
Annihilator? Ok!