36 replies to this topic

[Andi Nagasia]

i know this has been brought up many times before,
but as this is a new year, lets take another look,

=0=Ammo Balance=0=
many Agree that every Weapon that uses Ammo should have 200Damage per Ton,
the AC10 & SRM Class of weapons already share this Benefit,

Weapon,.........Current,....New,...
Gauss..................10......13(+3)
AC20(AllTypes)....7........10(+3)
AC5(AllTypes).....30......40(+10)
AC2(AllTypes).....75.....100(+25)
LRM...................180.....200(+20)

so would you Support this Change to Ammo?
what are your Thoughts about this Change?
is this enough or should more be done?

=0=(Poll)=0=



=0=Faction Ammo Balance=0=
should some IS weapons get more Ammo PerTon than Clan?
this would be to help Balance Some Clan weapons(Gauss & LRMs)
in this case IS would get 300Damage/Ton & Clan would get 200Damage/Ton,
(2IS Tons/Ammo would equal 3Clan Tons/Ammo)

IS Ammo Stats
Weapon,.........Current,....New,...
Gauss..................10......15(+5)
LRM...................180.....300(+120)

Clan Ammo Stats
Weapon,.........Current,....New,...
Gauss..................10......10(+0)
LRM...................180.....200(+20)
(C-Gauss doesnt get a Boost because its Advantage vs IS-Gauss)

so would you Support this Change to Ammo?
what are your Thoughts about this Change?
is this enough or should more be done?

=0=(Poll)=0=


Thoughts, Comments, Concerns?
Thanks,

Edit- Link to Poll,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 03 February 2017 - 03:58 PM.

[Ngamok]

Gauss and AC20 Ammo only, rest are fine.

Edit: Why? Because there needs to be some trade offs for weapon systems. We don't need people to take less tonnage in ammo only to add other weapons or heat sinks or jump jets.

Edited by Ngamok, 03 February 2017 - 10:23 AM.

[Jman5]

Agreed on the first point of increasing ammo to 200 damage/ton, but disagreed on the second. I'm worried that doing that would subvert the whole advantage clans have of lighter weapons. If you do that then you start calling into question other counter-balance systems introduced such as the stream fire, and lower hitpoints of the UAC/20 and Gauss. Or the 100% explosion rate of Gauss vs 90% for IS.

[El Bandito]

200 damage per ton must be implemented. Not only the enemy count per match has been increased to 12 from 8, CW allows 48 vs 48, making ammo that less impacting. Not to mention that many mechs now have durability quirks, thus warranting extra shots to bring them down, compared to pre-quirk era. Spread weapons such as LRM, SSRM, LBX etc... should get 250 damage per ton of ammo, if they are not buffed other ways.

There, I said it.

Ngamok, on 03 February 2017 - 10:22 AM, said:

Gauss and AC20 Ammo only, rest are fine.

Edit: Why? Because there needs to be some trade offs for weapon systems. We don't need people to take less tonnage in ammo only to add other weapons or heat sinks or jump jets.

Gauss and AC20 offer the biggest PPFLD. I think they require ammo boost the least, though I am fine with them boosted to 200 damage per ton of ammo.

Edited by El Bandito, 03 February 2017 - 11:26 AM.

[Wildstreak]

No to both.
If anything, you found a benefit to IS AC10s that some say is the worst AC not counting LBX. Buffing the others just makes them more desired lowering the AC10 value even more.
Second is not worth thinking about at this time given the upcoming tech update.

[Monkey Lover]

Clans should have more ammo per ton. All Thier other weapons take up less slots and are less weight why not ammo.....

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Ammo should get at least 200 damage per ton, I'd advocate for 250.

12v12 instead of 8v8 and the boatload of structure quirks and now armor quirks being handed out making mechs more durable than mechs above their weight class makes ammo based weaponry seem pretty bad considering how good energy weapons are in comparison.

On Clans for example there's very little reason to bring a UAC20 over a bank of 6 SPL except the extra range the UAC20 offers, but the double weight for weapon, high jam rates, high ammo requirement, stream firing, and low velocity are just too many draw backs.

I don't think there should be any difference in ammo counts per weapon between the factions, the weapons are balanced through other means. For the AC10 we can just increase its velocity or boost other stats to improve it instead of just giving it more ammo and calling it balanced.

[Grus]

Jman5, on 03 February 2017 - 10:59 AM, said:

Or the 100% explosion rate of Gauss vs 90% for IS.

with the current "charge" mechanic I think the only time the gauss should explode is during the charge up and the wepon is hit and destroyed. Because if I have to charge the gun before it fires then that means there isn't enough power built up in the capacitors to facilitate firming the wepon and thus not enough to explode and cause damage.

[panzer1b]

I support an increase to 200/t for everything. At the least it will open up the option of autocannons on lighter weight mechs with low pod space that simply can just barely bring a cannon but would be stuck with so little ammo as to render said weapon pointless (like 2 tons of ammo, 400 dmg is actually not useless while 300 is a complete waste of tonnage spent on said gun).

That said, at the least id like to see the ammo/t to be normalized for the autocannons, why does the 10 class model get higher ammo/t then the rest? If its a balance issues i dont quite understand since i have and do use the ac/uac10 often enough that its perfectly viable (and actually choose it intentionally on some mechs due to the higher ammo/ton), its a matter of alpha vs DPS compared to the more popular 5 class and they work at similar ranges. If 200/t is overpowered, then make everything be 150/t, and if 200/t is good, why not give all autocannons there.

That said, much more then 200/t and it will render ballistic boats overpowered since you can easily drop a few tons of ammo and pick up more firepower or perhaps some alternative weapons/heatsinks.

Id eally enjoy teh 200/t on things like my uac-2 boats (biggest annoyance with teh hunchie is the sheer amount of ammo it needs because its so unreliable), and itd open up the option of running a gauss rifle on a shadowcat (yeah its not a great idea but itd be fun provided i could do 600 vs 450 potential dmg with 3 tons of ammo).



Finally, im 100% against any sort of differentiation between IS and clan ammo/ton wise. Right now IS has the advantage in ballistics anyways (id rather have 10dmg from a ac-10 pinpoint then 20 dmg from a uac-10 spread all over tyhe mech). Frankly, i think its balanced, clans can run more guns/ammo compared to IS but IS's guns do far more effective damage.

Edited by panzer1b, 03 February 2017 - 03:25 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

it seems that many seem to be ok with 200damage perTon of ammo,
which is good, and i hope this is something we see changed soon to help with some mechs,
+25Ammo for AC2s i dont think will break balance with AC2s but it will help some mechs taking them,

ya i wasnt sure about the IS to Clan Ammo Balance,
which is why i made the poll it seems that such would be a bad idea as things now are balanced,
so i will be changing the second question abit,

[Andi Nagasia]

Ok ive Changed up the Second Question of the Topic,
it now would only Matter with Certain Weapon Outliners(Gauss & LRMs)
-
Gauss
its not leap that Clan Gauss is pretty much better than IS Gauss in every way(its even better at exploding )
(so would IS-Gauss having 15Ammo perTon to C-Gauss having only 10 be a good compromise?)
-
LRMs
this is a Simple idea to help Nigate some of the Advantages of C-LRMs being half weight,
(so would IS-LRMs having 50%more Ammo perTon be a good compromise?)

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 03 February 2017 - 04:00 PM.

[cazidin]

Andi... are you stealing my ideas?

[Andi Nagasia]

cazidin, on 03 February 2017 - 03:59 PM, said:

Andi... are you stealing my ideas?

Maybe,
but i think this has come up several times, Bishop, FupDup, Scout Derek, you, El Bandito,
it was a good idea, so i thought it should be brought up again this time with a Poll,

[panzer1b]

Andi Nagasia, on 03 February 2017 - 03:55 PM, said:

Ok ive Changed up the Second Question of the Topic,
it now would only Matter with Certain Weapon Outliners(Gauss & LRMs)
-
Gauss
its not leap that Clan Gauss is pretty much better than IS Gauss in every way(its even better at exploding )
(so would IS-Gauss having 15Ammo perTon to C-Gauss having only 10 be a good compromise?)
-
LRMs
this is a Simple idea to help Nigate some of the Advantages of C-LRMs being half weight,
(so would IS-LRMs having 50%more Ammo perTon be a good compromise?)

Gauss is the only one id even consider having different clan to IS since clan gauss is so much lighter and the 2 guns are otherwise identical.

As for lurms, clan lurms are absolute garbage (ams cuts em down, dont hit all at once) but do weigh less allowing you to get way more "alpha" damage out of the deal to compensate for their much less effective actual firepower. Giving IS an advantage in this regard is blatantly unfair since clan actually needs more ammo and more tubes to do equal devastation to the target. Im no lurm boat pilot, but my experimentation with hybris designs (some lurms onboard) make it very obvious that clan gets shafted and needs larger/more launchers to do similar levels of damage.

Its a very similar story with autocannons (and the sole reason id consider the choice between clan uacs and is acs fair). IS autocannons (at least from my experience) and vastly more lethal outside of a brawl against moving targets and such since all the damage goes to one component. Its so much of a difference that i actually fear a quad uac-5 king crab compared to a 5 uac-5 direwolf since that crab is basically firing a uac-20 while the direwolf is firing a uac-10 but twice as fast. In practice its not a huge deal since most dakka builds tend to focus slow targets that cant avoid or spread as easily, but against anything with some mobility the burst feature of clan weapons is a major downfall. I cannot say for a fact that IS is better (although if one could, id mount IS weapons tech on my clan mechs), but it is alot more effective to have pinpoint damage from my experience then spamming lots more weaker damage faster.

Actually this is one of the reasons the gauss rifle is my fav clan ballistic right now, heavy yeah, crap DPS, but at least its all that damage oin target instantly (and the high velocity doesnt hurt my ability to actually focus components on a moving target). Im fine either way for teh gauss, id like 200dmg/t for both clan and IS but its at least workeable as is and kicks arse.

Edited by panzer1b, 03 February 2017 - 04:55 PM.

[Snowbluff]

More LRM ammo? By IS LRMs are alreayd more effective. That's a solid no.

[Snazzy Dragon]

Oh, goody, more ammo per ton on my Clan mechs. Now I can shave a ton or two off for more guns or heatsinks. Or maybe even a bigger T-comp.

Inner Sphere needs that kind of buff far more than the Clans do, I think

[Jay Leon Hart]

Yes to normalising it to 200 damage/ton
No to the Ammo increase for IS over Clan. Specifically, no to the LRM boost, as IS LRMs are better weapons than their Clan counterparts, even if they are larger and heavier. Yes to the Gauss boost, though, as the Clan version is better in almost every way.

Perhaps not +5 per ton, why not +10?
IS Gauss + 30 rounds = 16.5 tons + 9 slots
Clan Gauss + 30 rounds = 15 tons + 9 slots
2x IS Gauss + 60 rounds = 33 tons + 17 slots
2x Clan Gauss + 60 rounds = 30 tons + 18 slots

Then drop the Clan Gauss explosion chance back down to 90% (and I think their HP is different, too? Fix that as well)

[NighthawK1337]

AC/20, AMS, and Machine Gun needs more ammo.

Seriously, AMS needs like 3k per ton with all the LRM rain. Even with overload I keep running out of AMS throughout the match.

[LordNothing]

i like that ammo is a trade off for a lot of weapons. but i would make a few tweaks:

id like to see the entire line of 2s bumped to 180 damage/ton. as the only low end option for lights id like to see a ton go a little farther.

i can see the ac20 being bumped up to 160/t, just to make half ton ammo less wasteful, thats just adding one round and its not going to turn the ac20 into some kind of meta monster.

is srms get 215 damage per ton for some reason. this was presumably to give it more damage to compensate for bad hitreg, but that could easily be rolled into dps instead of raw power, since that 215 number is really bogus. it might hurt lights but they can always run fewer tubes (especially with higher dps and more accuracy it might be preferable).

bump narc to 16/ton. at 3 tons the thing is hard to justify on light mechs, and ammo requirements just make it that much more unbearable. 4 narcs might make the system more desirable.

Edited by LordNothing, 03 February 2017 - 09:32 PM.

[El Bandito]

NighthawK1337, on 03 February 2017 - 08:29 PM, said:

Seriously, AMS needs like 3k per ton with all the LRM rain. Even with overload I keep running out of AMS throughout the match.

No. Because it takes 0.81 ton of AMS ammo to destroy 1 ton of LRM ammo. With AMS overload it takes less than half ton of AMS ammo to destroy 1 ton of LRM ammo. AMS is already ahead in that regard.

Basically, bring more AMS ammo, cause your opponents are bringing 8-10 tons of LRM ammo, each.

Edited by El Bandito, 03 February 2017 - 11:26 PM.