20 replies to this topic

[Perilthecat]

So, I’m a returning player (just came back after an 8 month break) and I have to say that I am pleased that an effort is being made to keep the metagame fresh. The prospect of a new skill tree was interesting and one reason I started playing again. I am disheartened, however, by the implementation. I really can’t see myself logging on after February if the new sill tree launches without a big overhaul. Some things I noticed:

• Expense. The spend is so high to assign 91 SP, I cannot comprehend how a newer player will compete with a veteran player. Even at a matched skill level they will be at a huge disadvantage going up against someone with a fully-spec’d ‘mech.

• You’re making me pay for something I got for free in the old system. This isn’t just a new skill tree, this is an amalgamation of skills, quirks, and modules. Previously, I only had to pay for modules. You’re now telling me that you’re taking away all my time and progress spent on mastering mechs, and now forcing me to buy back those buffs with c-bills. No. Way.

• Straight from Russ’ twitter, an alleged goal of the new system is for players to purchase multiple copies of the same variant, which they would then apparently min-max based on different loadouts. Pardon me, but can someone help me make sense of that in light of OMNIMECHS. That literally goes against the whole point of their existence! Not to mention the existence of the whole ‘Mechbay customization experience! It’s there for us to continually tinker, not set-it and forget it. Yes, I understand that we will still be able to do this, with the option to either leave a bunch of useless SP on a ‘mech or pay an exorbitant fee to re-spec the skill tree. But you know what I can do now? I can take my Gauss module from one variant and plug it into another variant, hit save, and then hit PLAY. It costs me 30 seconds and zero c-bills. What you are giving me is objectively worse from a player perspective.

• You’re now expecting me to pay for stuff on every variant that I only had to buy once in the module system. I know it was a pipe dream to have modules be a c-bill sink, but someone is deluded if they think most of us bought a full set of modules for every variant we own. Not at the prices you were charging. There’s a reason people swapped around that one Radar Deprivation module when they had 200 ‘mechs in the garage. And now you’ve designed a system that forces me to pay, when before I didn’t have to. That’s a detriment to my play experience.

• When I re-spec, I have to pay for all the SP nodes again!? Right now I can swap modules willy-nilly for free. A system that is working as intended. This new paradigm is worse for players.

• Currently, if I master a mech and then sell it, but re-buy it later, it comes back to me fully mastered. In the new system, POOF, all my c-bills and xp and TIME just disappear. No thank you?

• The re-spec cost. This shouldn’t exist if we have to re-buy all the SP nodes afterward. It shouldn’t even really exist even if we get “credit” for those nodes. Right now it doesn’t cost me a red cent to swap a module for a different one that I already own. This is a flat degrading of the player experience.

• The new system is a stronger buff for over-performers relative to under-performers. A 10% buff can actually improve things for a strong mech more than a weaker mech. KDK-3 just melts an Atlas now. It didn’t make me feel like a better player. It felt like an unfair advantage. I’m sure there are those who will argue vehemently in favour of this, but this new system would actually imbalance things more, and that’s assuming you’re facing off with someone who can min-max the system as well as you can.

• The system discourages diversity and encourages boating. There are no real trade-offs between skills. I can have it all if I want to. I spec’d my KDK-3 as a full UAC boat with max armour and speed tweak, seismic and radar deprivation, and still had some stuff left over for fluff I didn’t need. When you can do that, it’s easy to just do it in the best way possible, and that encourages EVERYONE to do it the best way possible. Which makes it just as linear as the old skill system except with added pitfalls for new players and other folks who just don’t know what they’re doing. New players are then disproportionately penalized by high re-spec cost. It’s smarter to stick with one weapon type in this system to get the most bang for your buck. This also is a nerf to ‘mechs with diverse hard points relative to boats.

• On the lack of trade-offs: Instead of making us choose between skilling up the “jam-chance” tree or lets say the “weapon re-cycling” tree (think things that affect DPS) I get to just have all of it. That isn’t very interesting, and it doesn’t lead to very unique setups because I don’t have to make any real choices. There’s no dilemma. Instead, I just have to skill through a bunch of unrelated junk nodes that block me from the good stuff. Luckily I have more than enough SP to bulldoze through “fall damage” to something more worthwhile. I don’t want to hurt any feelings, but this is really clunky and uninteresting. And it doesn’t make any sense from an immersion perspective. The module system was much more elegant in the sense that you levelled up certain modules as you went along. If you could take that aspect of modules and marry it to the scarcity of a toned-down SP system then that would lead to some interesting choices.

• Again, each ‘mech has access to the same buffs. With the module system, some ‘mechs had more or fewer slots based on their relative performance. Bye-bye to this balance initiative.

• The new system, in addition to taking away all my progress, forces me to re-grind. I don’t want to be told I’ll be a c-billionaire when modules are refunded because I did the smart thing and swapped modules, just as was encouraged both by the system’s design (modules aren’t locked to a mech) and implicitly by the developer (as another player pointed out, one of the “tips” screens explains that you can swap around modules). Looking at the numbers, trying to master a ‘mech with this system takes more time than I physically have and feels like a chore rather than a fun goal. I also don’t want to be told that people without time can buy all the SP they need with MC, that’s what it’s for, people with no time! Well, I bought hundreds upon hundreds of dollars of pre order packs and mastered my ‘mechs as I see fit. I already paid my dues in time and money. Don’t take away my stuff.

• What exactly is this change adding to my experience? Is the older skill system kinda.. dumb? Yeah. Is pinpoint skill useless? Yeah. Is buying 3 variants a hassle or detriment? Occasionally. But does this new system provide a net positive? Not from where I’m standing.

So, in my opinion this hurts new players, discourages the “playing” of the ‘mechlab half of the game, and, most of all

just doesn’t seem fun.

[Perilthecat]

Tweet in question, referenced above. I mean... that's the fun of the mechlab. Tweak your loadout, tweak your modules, and away you go. Not owning doubles or triples that you never touch 'cause they're all spec'd out. And Omnis... just... their whole point is swapping everything around. That's LITERALLY what they are for.

[Skribs]

The new system penalizes respeccing to the point that it is desirable to do something else.

That's not "supporting" a concept of owning multiple stuff, it's forcing us into it.

This guy has absolutely no idea what Mechwarrior is about.

[Shorheh]

Not enough replies here : all your concerns are relevant, and the skill tree should not be implemented if even a single one of them remain.

[Kuaron]

Idk, are omnis actually about constantly swapping pods and replacing functioning builds?
I thought they just give some freedom where Battlemechs don’t and have other things fixed in exchange.

[oldradagast]

Let's be brutally honest: were it not for the ability to heavily customize a mech to make it feel like your own - and change that customization later - this game would have died years ago. Gameplay isn't terribly deep or engaging, and there's not a lot else to recommend it other than kicking butt in that crazy build nobody predicted.

And the new skill system takes that away. No, I'm not going to start buying duplicates of the same chassis just because it is now cost prohibitive to customize them. I'll keep one build on any single mech - the meta build - and sell all my non-meta mechs, and probably never buy a new mech again.

This whole proposed idea is insanity: without the 3 of a kind rule and with customization being penalized via respecs, there is no reason for any veteran player to ever buy another mech again... or, even to buy MC since that was mostly used to buy mechbays. If PGI is trying to kill the game, they are doing a good job; remember "want to buy a mech pack?" What if everyone says "no?"

Edited by oldradagast, 10 February 2017 - 04:09 PM.

[Malrock]

I agree it seems like the new system makes mech packs nearly worthless. I can't see them selling many if any after this change goes in.

[Deathlike]

For omnimechs, the only differentiation is the CT omnipods (and its quirks) or the set of 8-quirks (some builds can maximize this while others can't/won't).

That's about it unfortunately.

Edited by Deathlike, 10 February 2017 - 04:55 PM.

[VitriolicViolet]

the longer i mess with the PTS the more i dont like it. One thing that could help is anytime balance is adjusted in any way everuy player gets a free total respec without grinding. i am increasingly disliking how the new system limits and discourages changing your builds, i think i spend more time in the mechlab than in-game currently. My purchaese have also slowed considerablely since CW phase 3. this will not encourage me to spend in fact unless significant changes are made the main reason i play (total free customisation) will cease unless you want to grind every time you think of a new build.

[Wibbledtodeath]

He knows Skribs, its about making him money......

Actual peril. You make some good points. The system would work better if respec didn't cost/or had a very nominal cost, this would not invalidate Omni's as much. Also (while a base tree system makes sense in testing phase) chassis specific trees need to be made to help out underperformers (&/or keep quirks in place to do so) & make specialising in 1 weapon system a trade off vs other options.

[Y E O N N E]

To be fair, the purpose of OmniMechs was always superfluous in a game that doesn't have repair+rearm or battlefield economics of any sort.

That said, maybe bind skills to OmniPods?

[Tier5 Kerensky]

Consider how much it takes with current system to elite and master ONE Direwolf. Yep, you have to buy 3 to do that. At 65% sale price that's together 33 million.

For some omnimechs which don't benefit much for elite and master skills, this new system would end up more expensive.

Like Dire, it's about the same or cheaper, depending how many different fully optimized builds you want to have. Same for Dakka dire, due to rather limited modules you could have, you have small disadvantage if you mixed different UAC calibers. You did it anyway due to the advantages outweighting the disadvantage that you can't have range and cooldown modules for two UAC calibers. This new system treats all UAC the same. This is particular benefit at least for Dire, Kodiak and probably Night Gyr.

For some omnimechs they have so good 8/8 quirks this new system is significantly cheaper.

It's not quite as bad as OP thinks. I have mostly omnimechs and what I mostly can see, is ways to improve them with this new system.

[Perilthecat]

The part about Omni's that is irksome is that the whole point about them is literally customization. Their raison d'être was that you could pull off that gauss rifle and slap in some large pulses. One stated goal of this new system is actually discouraging that and instead encouraging you to buy duplicates of the same variant, build and spec them, and then not touch them again.

You're right though, it's expensive to master a Dire Wolf currently, from a pure 'mech cost perspective. But you still end up with 3 'mechs, which has value. Paying 9 million c-bills in the new system to replace modules I already own and skill tree buffs that only cost me XP before, well, where is the value? Currently, all the weapons and modules are hot-swappable, and you can always sell off the unused variants for half your money back. And then you have a Mastered Dire Wolf that you can buff with modules in whatever way you like. Want to run UAC5s? Great! Want to swap to Dual Gauss + whatever? Great! EzPz. Want a duplicate variant (for some reason) of that same Dire Wolf you just mastered? Good news, buy another one and it comes to you fully mastered. Also: the XP cost to master a 'mech currently (basics on 3, elite and master on 1) is muuuuuuch lower than mastering one 'mech in the new system.

But under the new system? I buy a Dire Wolf, have to pay 9 million c-bills to "master" it (plus an exorbitant amount of xp), and then if I want to change my loadout and have optimal buffs on this new setup its going to cost me ~2.5 million more c-bills every time I want to swap the loadout. Unless I do what Russ wants and I buy a duplicate Dire Wolf? Which I... then have to spend 9 million more c-bills on (plus a giant amount of XP) to spec out?

So, Yes, you are right in saying that if you buy one Dire Wolf, master it for one (presumably meta) build, and don't touch it again that the c-bill cost can be cheaper. Any you are right that it may end up being more powerful than the Dire Wolf is currently. That second point is actually something that I consider broken, as the Dire Wolf is already a strong performer. It doesn't need to be OP God Tier along with the Kodiak and Night Gyr. If anything, those (overperforming variants) should be wrangled a bit more.

But frankly, using one of the most expensive and highest tier mechs in the game as your example, then trying to equate it with the rest of the omnis, is a bit disingenuous. The expensive-as-hell Dire Wolf benefits exponentially here compared to a Mist Lynx, which still costs you 9 million c-bills to spec out. Gooooood luck grinding out the necessary XP on that thing. And lets not pretend to be blind to the fact that the majority of the Clan mechs are really not that great.

[Pjwned]

While I see your point about Omnimechs, with omnipods you can still get unique hardpoint configurations that you otherwise could not; this build is an example that I happen to have on hand that shows what I mean.

[Perilthecat]

Yeonne Greene, on 10 February 2017 - 09:18 PM, said:

To be fair, the purpose of OmniMechs was always superfluous in a game that doesn't have repair+rearm or battlefield economics of any sort.

That said, maybe bind skills to OmniPods?

Definitely. The tabletop/lore reasoning behind Omnis doesn't fit here.

But in MWO, OmniMechs are the mechs that you can play Mister Potato Head with. Their whole strength, and indeed the stated primary trade-off for the fact that much of their equipment is locked, is that you can grab that arm from that one variant and slap it on another variant, then next match you can grab the side torsos from a third variant and run a different build.

And now they expect me to glue the OmniPods on with SP and plunk down on a duplicate variant if I want to run a different build with different weapon efficiencies? That, or pay 2.5 million c-bills because I want to run SRMs for a bit with matching buffs.

Just makes me cranky thinking about it.

Pjwned, on 10 February 2017 - 10:50 PM, said:

While I see your point about Omnimechs, with omnipods you can still get unique hardpoint configurations that you otherwise could not; this build is an example that I happen to have on hand that shows what I mean.

That's true. But doesn't it seem a bit ridiculous that if you want to swap out all your lazorz and run dakka (with related weapon efficiencies) they're then trying to encourage you to buy another variant, instead of the desired Omnipods available right there in the store? Either that or plunk down 2.5 million c-bills that go up in smoke because you didn't want to be at a disadvantage.

Edited by Perilthecat, 10 February 2017 - 10:56 PM.

[Ruar]

Great write up, fully agree with your points.

[Pjwned]

Perilthecat, on 10 February 2017 - 10:50 PM, said:

That's true. But doesn't it seem a bit ridiculous that if you want to swap out all your lazorz and run dakka (with related weapon efficiencies) they're then trying to encourage you to buy another variant, instead of the desired Omnipods available right there in the store? Either that or plunk down 2.5 million c-bills that go up in smoke because you didn't want to be at a disadvantage.

To be fair, I can see where PGI is coming from when they want players to buy multiple copies of the same variant; ideally it's just a large 1-time investment to buy another chassis and skill it up rather than constantly dealing with skill respecs on a large scale.

They take this **** way too far though, players are just expected to take it in the *** with this horrible business model until they decide to pay a bunch of money for mech packs or whatever, but the problem is that's not a sustainable business practice because now PGI wants players to take it in the *** even harder with this new system (the way it is currently, anyways) despite there being less and less dedicated players because they're tired of PGI's terrible decisions and sub-glacial development speed.

I hope PGI makes some major tweaks so that the new skill tree isn't such a shitshow because I was interested to see an actual improvement over the old (current) skill tree, except so far the execution is abysmal and they flat out lied about the level of grinding this new skill tree would entail.

[The Lost Boy]

Its actually better for omnimechs. You buy the CT/Legs you want and then slap together what you want. You dont have to waste the extra money on other cts. It will also give a use for mech models with LOTS of xp on them.

It will however encourage the use of "best in chassis" and thats mostly what you will see. But the grind for 3 mechs and cbills to buy and outfit them will be cheaper for 1 mech. How will they get people to buy a mech pack?

[Hit the Deck]

oldradagast, on 10 February 2017 - 04:08 PM, said:

...
I'll keep one build on any single mech - the meta build - and sell all my non-meta mechs, and probably never buy a new mech again.
...

The meta could still shift although a lot of the fixed quirks have been toned down.

[Malrock]

Lemming of the BDA, on 11 February 2017 - 08:46 AM, said:

Its actually better for omnimechs. You buy the CT/Legs you want and then slap together what you want. You dont have to waste the extra money on other cts. It will also give a use for mech models with LOTS of xp on them.

It will however encourage the use of "best in chassis" and thats mostly what you will see. But the grind for 3 mechs and cbills to buy and outfit them will be cheaper for 1 mech. How will they get people to buy a mech pack?

I don't think people will buy mech packs anymore which may mean the end of the game.