41 replies to this topic

[Snazzy Dragon]

Title says it all. This was expected but I am sad that there aren't even any attempts within the skill tree structure to stop boating. Trying to optimize two weapon types is taxing enough-- 3-4 is now out of the question. RIP what little niche there might have been for mixed builds.

[Paigan]

o7 Snazzy One

I thought about creating a thread like that.
I already figured out how to almost max out all desireable skill nodes for my laser boat Mechs.
So for me, there won't be much a tradeoff-decision at all, I'll just get (almost) everything.

On the other hand:
Mixed loadouts are pretty much Mech-romantic nonsense, anyway.
Everywhere you look, from single soldiers to tanks to aircraft, they specialize on one primary weapon system and maybe a much smaller secondary as backup and/or special situations.
You might call it "despisable boating", I call it reasonable.


You might find this cool because of some twisted sense of adventerous mech-romantic with one weapon for every imaginable situation



But reasonable is this:




But still:
The skill tree is pretty shallow and the only need to make a choice arises if you want to build something crazy-ivan-style like in the first picture.

Edited by Paigan, 09 February 2017 - 01:50 AM.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Paigan, on 09 February 2017 - 01:49 AM, said:

o7 Snazzy One

I thought about creating a thread like that.
I already figured out how to almost max out all desireable skill nodes for my laser boat Mechs.
So for me, there won't be much a tradeoff-decision at all, I'll just get (almost) everything.

On the other hand:
Mixed loadouts are pretty much Mech-romantic nonsense, anyway.
Everywhere you look, from single soldiers to tanks to aircraft, they specialize on one primary weapon system and maybe a much smaller secondary as backup and/or special situations.
You might call it "despisable boating", I call it reasonable.


You might find this cool because of some twisted sense of adventerous mech-romantic with one weapon for every imaginable situation



But reasonable is this:




But still:
The skill tree is pretty shallow and the only need to make a choice arises if you want to build something crazy-ivan-style like in the first picture.

This is a video game about giant robots, not real life.

The reality of Battletech and MWO is that many mechs were designed with mixed builds in mind. Encouraging boating just means that mechs that are good at boating (Kodiak) will always have an advantage over the ones that need to use all of its mixed hardpoints to be effective (Atlas). Systemic imbalances are not good for the game's health.

[Paigan]

Kaeb Odellas, on 09 February 2017 - 03:10 AM, said:

This is a video game about giant robots, not real life.

The reality of Battletech and MWO is that many mechs were designed with mixed builds in mind. Encouraging boating just means that mechs that are good at boating (Kodiak) will always have an advantage over the ones that need to use all of its mixed hardpoints to be effective (Atlas). Systemic imbalances are not good for the game's health.

I didn't talk about realism. I only gave an example from the real world.
I talked about reasonable weapon strategies.

BT, as hardly bearable cheesy as it is, might have been built with naive Mechromantic in mind, yes.
But that doesn't change that there are better strategies than the childish stuff.

You can argue that PGI should stick to the naive stuff, but it still doesn't change that a more reasonable approach is more reasonable.

[Nesutizale]

Sorry to say but Mixed loadouts aren't a romantic thing. You have to see a bigger picture as Mechs are basicly "one man armies" that are build not just for a short engagement, like we have it here, but extended campaigns with lots of different terrains and situations in mind.

A normal army also dosn't consist only of one type of infantry or only one type of tanks or whatever.
They also have a mixed loadout.

A specialised Mech like the Awesome, basicly build to be an mobile directfire turret for City defence, are good in that one job but fail in others.

With a group of friends we took our MWO Mechs and put rebuild them for the Boardgame. Maplayout had different terrains from open to city.
My friends, who mostly build boating mechs, had a hard time keeping up as I could freely move in any terrain with my mixed loadout.

So you are right in MWO boating makes sence as matches mostly result in fighting face to face where boating lasers, srms or similar is highly effective but if MWO would be a lengthy campaign where you manage resources or the gamedesign would force you to have changeing battle situations mixed loudouts would work better.

In conclusion I would say that mixed or boatings effectiveness/sense is depending on how the game is played.

Edited by Nesutizale, 09 February 2017 - 04:12 AM.

[Duke Nedo]

Snazzy Dragon, on 09 February 2017 - 01:40 AM, said:

Title says it all. This was expected but I am sad that there aren't even any attempts within the skill tree structure to stop boating. Trying to optimize two weapon types is taxing enough-- 3-4 is now out of the question. RIP what little niche there might have been for mixed builds.

Completely correct. It's not that mixed builds should be favored or anything, but they obviously don't need to be punished.

[Dogstar]

It's a big nerf to the IS mechs which mostly have mixed hardpoints when compared to the clan mechs that are much better at boating

[sitting target]

So far I hate the infotech tree, mech operations tree, upper chassis tree, and all of the weapon trees.
I feel like this entire setup is designed for max LRM boating and not really anything else.

[Kael Posavatz]

To an extent this really does give the Clans an advantage in that their omnimechs can swap to same hardpoint types across the mech.

On the other hand, mechs with diverse hardpoints whether it be the Atlas or the Orion IIC either have to bring underperforming weapon systems or not utilize some weapon hardpoints.

[Nesutizale]

Dogstar, on 09 February 2017 - 05:53 AM, said:

It's a big nerf to the IS mechs which mostly have mixed hardpoints when compared to the clan mechs that are much better at boating

Kinda true as Omnimechs can change their Hardpoints, A stock clan mech also has a good number of different hardpoints.
Still have to agree, its a nerf for IS...even if its passive.

[Adgar76]

A simple solution would be to make end-tree skills more costly.
E.g. Speed Tweak 1 -> 1 point, Speed Tweak 5 -> 2 (or whatever number is reasonable).
Many skill systems work just like this, overspecialization should always come at an increased price.

[Swamp Fox II]

I came to post with just this in mind: less weapon systems = favored

[Kuaron]

Snazzy Dragon, on 09 February 2017 - 01:40 AM, said:

Title says it all. This was expected but I am sad that there aren't even any attempts within the skill tree structure to stop boating. Trying to optimize two weapon types is taxing enough-- 3-4 is now out of the question. RIP what little niche there might have been for mixed builds.

This problem needs more attention, IMO.
Just made a thread searching for constructive solutions for just this.
https://mwomercs.com...weapon-boating/

[KodiakGW]

And what about the mechs that have hardpoints that don't allow effective boating. Ones like...I don't know...maybe the BUSHWACKER?

Glad I didn't buy it. I do know one player who joined only last month who did. "Thanks for your money player. Hope you enjoyed it for the one month, because it's going to be crap against a Crab now."

[Nesutizale]

Good way to get people not spending any money on mech anymore.
Also there is little to nothing that gives a Mixed mech anything to counter boating.
A player with a mixed mech dosn't have any more skillpoints to spend that he would have to or skills that could give him an edge in any other field like haveing more armor/structure because the boat can also have these.

I think the cost for weapons nodes should be coupled with the number of weapons you have. Meaning that if you use...lets say 5 laser weapons your nodes cost 2 points instead of 1.
Just a basic idea...

[Horseman]

Nesutizale, on 09 February 2017 - 06:28 AM, said:

I think the cost for weapons nodes should be coupled with the number of weapons you have. Meaning that if you use...lets say 5 laser weapons your nodes cost 2 points instead of 1.
Just a basic idea...

That would be open to abuse - you'd rebuild the chassis and suddenly have crazy buffs from your previously bought skills.
IMO, the solution is scaling effectiveness of the upgrades by hardpoints and tonnage (less hardpoints and available tonnage = more benefits from the upgrade).

Basically, a single autocannon on a build that has only one ballistic slot would get the most benefits while boats would get to pump out more firepower but wouldn't get the same range/cooldown/heat generation buffs for every single weapon.
By a happy coincidence, this would also slightly promote lore-friendly builds that mix multiple weapons (yay diversity!)

[lazytopaz]

More you boat less buffs skill tree gives.
you have 2 weapons of a same type you get full bonus. More than 4 skill tree bonus is 25% weaker. 6 and more 50% weaker.
Whilst having 1 gives off 50% increase in overall performance bonus from skills.

And where is my goddamn "ballistic cooldown" skill?

Apart from that; my idea -> problem solved?

[Gas Guzzler]

What happened to wanting role warfare and specializing in a specific aspect of combat?

Besides, I fail to see how some minor skill boosts on your pair of backup medium lasers are going to actually help your frankenmech be viable.

Mixed builds are definitely "mech romantic nonsense", in a PvP game they were never going to be a thing, mixing more than 2 weapons is just not efficient to begin with. But still as I said, just skill up the two more effective weapon groups and let the other two niche weapons have their base stats. Its like how now you can't module up 4 different weapons, except at least the groups are a little more generalized... your LRM skills apply to all LRM sizes.

KodiakGW, on 09 February 2017 - 06:21 AM, said:

And what about the mechs that have hardpoints that don't allow effective boating. Ones like...I don't know...maybe the BUSHWACKER?

Glad I didn't buy it. I do know one player who joined only last month who did. "Thanks for your money player. Hope you enjoyed it for the one month, because it's going to be crap against a Crab now."

The best builds have 6 SRMs, 3 AC5s, OR 2 AC10s.. My Bushwackers love the skill tree frankly. You guys need to recognize that the skill points on 2 medium lasers arent worth it anyway. This is all perception, very little impact.

[Roughneck45]

Well, we can't fully optimize mixed loadouts with the system we have now either.

Technically, you can tweak more weapons with this new system than the old, you just have to sacrifice the other categories.

Boating is caused by hardpoints anyway.

[Orville Righteous]

Its seems like having one weapon system type is ideal under the new system. My Top Dog has LPLs and MLs, so I'd have to invest in two trees. I have a Black Knight with LPLs and MPLs, so I could max out just the Pulse Laser Tree on that mech. It seems like the Black Knight will be at an advantage.