10 replies to this topic

[GrimRiver]

I notice people are talking about how the new skill tree promotes "boating" 1 weapon type to save node point for other things.

So instead how about this:

Greatly buff weapon skills.

Divide that quirk percent across each weapon, exp:

10% cooldown maxed skill - 4x AC5 = 2.5% per AC5 vs a full 10% for running 1x AC5.

So 1 weapon gets good benefits and boating isn't encouraged but is still doable.

Another exp: My cent(NCIX) has: AC10 - 2xML - 2xSRM2.
If the Laser cooldown skill was 10% maxed out and the percent was divided across the 2xML then that ends up as 5% cooldown total, if I remove 1xML then it is 10% for 1 ML.

Works with all weapon types for both IS and clans.

This is more of an incentive not to boat rather than curbing it.

Can this be improved upon?

Edited by GrimRiver, 09 February 2017 - 11:06 AM.

[FupDup]

The problem with this is that some weapons are strong enough to be effective individual or in pairs, while some weapons are so weak that they are useless unless boated. I'm talking stuff like the SRM2, Small Laser, AC/2, etc. Meanwhile, PPCs and Gauss only take a small hit to their Squirks because you never need more than 2 of each.

The intention is a noble one, but it really doesn't work when some weapons require high quantities to be viable.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

FupDup, on 09 February 2017 - 11:01 AM, said:

The problem with this is that some weapons are strong enough to be effective individual or in pairs, while some weapons are so weak that they are useless unless boated. I'm talking stuff like the SRM2, Small Laser, AC/2, etc. Meanwhile, PPCs and Gauss only take a small hit to their Squirks because you never need more than 2 of each.

The intention is a noble one, but it really doesn't work when some weapons require high quantities to be viable.

I think its noble enough to be tweaked. Its a small number of weapons that would negatively be affected by such a change, whereas the current tiny numbers are shafting everyone. I think IS smalls in general need a buff, SRM2s are also in need of some help. I can'5 think of a single build that boats them well anyway. I actually think AC/2s would be doing fine with such a change.

[FupDup]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 09 February 2017 - 11:21 AM, said:

I think its noble enough to be tweaked. Its a small number of weapons that would negatively be affected by such a change, whereas the current tiny numbers are shafting everyone. I think IS smalls in general need a buff, SRM2s are also in need of some help. I can'5 think of a single build that boats them well anyway. I actually think AC/2s would be doing fine with such a change.

If we really have to insist on scaling by quantity, then I think it might just have to be set up so that each weapon has a "scaling factor" rather than just scaling on quantity alone. So, for example, having two PPCs will get you much lower buffs than one PPC, but having two Small Lasers will have very minimal penalty compared to one Small Laser. Weapons dependent on boating get a much lower scaling factor than the big boys.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

FupDup, on 09 February 2017 - 11:23 AM, said:

If we really have to insist on scaling by quantity, then I think it might just have to be set up so that each weapon has a "scaling factor" rather than just scaling on quantity alone. So, for example, having two PPCs will get you much lower buffs than one PPC, but having two Small Lasers will have very minimal penalty compared to one Small Laser. Weapons dependent on boating get a much lower scaling factor than the big boys.

I don't have a problem with that. But that hikes up the learning curve for newbies. I wish they would not have grouped all the lasers together like they did. It would have been better to group small lasers medium lasers and large lasers together I think. Then you could just start with a much higher divisable bonus on the smaller weapons. Like 60% for IS smalls since they're trash weapons.

[GrimRiver]

FupDup, on 09 February 2017 - 11:23 AM, said:

If we really have to insist on scaling by quantity, then I think it might just have to be set up so that each weapon has a "scaling factor" rather than just scaling on quantity alone. So, for example, having two PPCs will get you much lower buffs than one PPC, but having two Small Lasers will have very minimal penalty compared to one Small Laser. Weapons dependent on boating get a much lower scaling factor than the big boys.

Yeah, a scaling system would be nice.

Maybe give SRM2/SSRM2 - AC2 - SL/SPL bigger percent buffs, maybe 40-60% to be divided?

[Van Tuz]

I actually do like the suggestion. I think that pure boating is boring and "jacks of all trades" builds should have a chance. But it's not without its drawbacks.

1) Similar weapons (ML+LPL. Gauss/PPC/AC5) would receive full or nearly full bonuses. Ideally the system should include bigger buffs for non-synergistic weapon combinations like SPL+LRM.
2) Different mech sizes have different number of same weapons. Linear scaling won't cut it, it needs something more complex.
3) Limited number of nodes may still yield better results from 1 full tree (even divided between a lot of weapons) compared to partial 2 or 3 trees.

Edited by Van Tuz, 09 February 2017 - 02:16 PM.

[Appuagab]

This system will surely need some tweaks but it would definitely make overall weapons' and builds' balance much healthier.
Also, notice that most of potential problems with this stats inversely proportional scaling comes rather from weapons balance itself rather than from skill trees or quirks.

[Horseman]

I wouldn't go as far as dividing the quirks by number of weapons, but I agree on the principle that mechs that use only a single weapon of a given type need to be rewarded for that investment with larger buffs while when a large number of weapons is benefitting from them (or the mech is meant to boat by design), the buffs should be dialed down.

[Fox2232]

Easiest way against boating is to give Stronger effect from nodes at start of the tree and much weaker nodes at bottom.

Spend 25 points in one tree to max out? Or spend 3x 9 points in 3 different trees to gain 3x 50% effect of that one tree?

This can be paired with shared weapon tree having:
Cooldown for all weapons (different value for each as each needs different benefit)
Range for all weapons (Again different for each type)
Projectile speed (decreases laser pulse duration = amount of time player has to keep aiming properly, but should increase cooldown a bit to just improve aiming and not dps)
...

And then specialized trees will have only those really weapon needed things:
lasers - reduced heat generation
U-AC - reduced jam chance

[MrHail]

Fox2232, on 10 February 2017 - 02:28 AM, said:

Easiest way against boating is to give Stronger effect from nodes at start of the tree and much weaker nodes at bottom.

Spend 25 points in one tree to max out? Or spend 3x 9 points in 3 different trees to gain 3x 50% effect of that one tree?

This can be paired with shared weapon tree having:
Cooldown for all weapons (different value for each as each needs different benefit)
Range for all weapons (Again different for each type)
Projectile speed (decreases laser pulse duration = amount of time player has to keep aiming properly, but should increase cooldown a bit to just improve aiming and not dps)
...

And then specialized trees will have only those really weapon needed things:
lasers - reduced heat generation
U-AC - reduced jam chance

Or.....
Like many other ppl said:
1st point costs 1SP
2nd point costs 1SP
3rd point costs 2SP
4th point 2SP
5th point 4SP
6th point 6SP

etc

So the lower you get down the tree the returns cost WAY more.

There are a lot of ideas that can improve the skill tree.
The question is will PGI listen?
Or just drop it as is or worse scrap it and say it never existed.

I think the skill tree is a huge step in the right direction but they needed to put the PTS up like 1-2 months ago and constantly improve it until it's just the way the majority want it to be. Really hope they keep it and improve it.