21 replies to this topic

[Tommytools]

I'm not extremely well versed in BT canon (and its been a long time since I last played any kind of PnP), but there's one thing that I've been wondering and would like to see what others think on the subject. I do want to point out that I trust the dev team to launch a balanced product (and that I'll help with that as much as I can once founders beta access goes live).

Not trying to ressurect some long-dead thread, but I couldn't find a similar one, so apologies if this has been discussed to death already.

In the BT universe there are very few production facilities for mechs left and battlefield salvage is a major source of spare parts (and sometimes mechs). Keeping mechs in working order is a challenge all round, with the best equipment inevitably going to a few elite house units. Mercenary companies tend to get (part of) their payment in battlefield salvage rights, but they tend to be even more reliant on salvage than house units (it being their main source of mechs and parts).


Even when the Clan invasion is in full swing it should take months for the Clan equipment to trickle down to us, the rank and file mechwarriors. I hope that once its available Clan tech will be expensive and rare for the first few months of the invasion. I don't have a problem with the Clans (or their tech) coming in, I just hope we don't see players running around in fully kitted out Timberwolves in Liao space on day 1 of the first wave of the clan invasion.

I hope the Clans will initially be a set of non-player factions and that Clan tech takes a long time to become common. Heck even in 3055 the vast majority of mechs in the IS were still using pre-Clan equipment, I'd like to see that reflected in Clan tech availability.

Thoughts?

TT

[Ganthrinor]

IIRC it was around 3060 that a lot fo the Scav'd ClanTech became widely available and re-purposed for mass production. Which is also around the time the Smoke Jaguars are defeated and the Great Refusal ends.

And PPC Capacitors <3

[Jakob Knight]

The difficulty in maintaining battlemechs and the critical nature of salvage changed after the recovery of the Helm data core. That brought about a new age of manufacture and rediscovery that put quite a few new production facilities and spare parts factories into existance. By the time MWO starts, there are quite a few brand new and refit battlemechs in the Inner Sphere, and the older mechs have much larger spare parts supplies than in the prevous century.

While the level of technology is similar to that of the Star League when it fell, it is patchwork, with several areas lagging and others forging ahead of where the League left off. Several Successor States maintain dominance in specific technologies and weapons, with the others trying to catch up in those areas where they lack. Some Star League 'mech designs that haven't been seen in centuries are now back in operation, and for the first time in decades, new battlemech models are rolling out of the R&D sections of many States.

When the Clans invade, the various technologies become pooled in the Free Worlds League for mass war production, and as a result, become much more widespread and available, and Clan technology is furiously reverse-engineered to produce Inner Sphere versions. This is in the future, however, so technology like ER Medium Lasers, Omnimechs, Ultra AC/20s won't be around for many, many years if MWO goes according to this timeline.

In all likelihood, the Clans will be an NPC faction designed for special events and to add an element of random attacks to the overall galaxy faction progression when that goes in. Clan mechs and technology do not mix well with the setups I've seen in the MWO videos so far, so I can't see it ever being integrated into the game without very, very severe consequences.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 18 July 2012 - 02:33 PM.

[VooDooPC]

Wolf's Dragoons had Clan Tech in the Inner Sphere in 3005, though I highly doubt they shared.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Personally I'm hoping that the clans are PVE for a while, and that we get to loot them for tech before they open up to being a playable faction. Mixed tech mechs would go a long way to balancing the Clan tech advantage.

[Tommytools]

ScrapIron Prime, on 18 July 2012 - 03:19 PM, said:

Personally I'm hoping that the clans are PVE for a while, and that we get to loot them for tech before they open up to being a playable faction. Mixed tech mechs would go a long way to balancing the Clan tech advantage.

My thoughts exactly, give the players the chance to update/upgrade their IS mechs before giving them the opportunity to pilot powerful omnimechs like the Timberwolf. The IS can't produce (Clan) omnimechs (not for a while at least), so Clan mechs should be even rarer at the start of the invasion.

VooDooPC, on 18 July 2012 - 02:38 PM, said:

Wolf's Dragoons had Clan Tech in the Inner Sphere in 3005, though I highly doubt they shared.

Aye Wolf's Dragoons have the tech, but I don't recall reading anywhere that they shared it. They're also a Canon merc unit, so its highly unlikely anyone will be able to join them anytime soon, if at all possible it'll take time before anyone can claim to be in that unit (loyalty points and the like).

Edited by Tommytools, 19 July 2012 - 12:01 AM.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

Jakob Knight, on 18 July 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

In all likelihood, the Clans will be an NPC faction designed for special events and to add an element of random attacks to the overall galaxy faction progression when that goes in. Clan mechs and technology do not mix well with the setups I've seen in the MWO videos so far, so I can't see it ever being integrated into the game without very, very severe consequences.

Yes I am hoping the Clans are used for PvE/Co Op content. They would be very fitting for this role. I also agree that if Clan Tech is given to players anytime soon it will be very disastrous balance wise. Perhaps in the future they can release an expansion pack that adds a Clan as a playable faction and only by siding with it can you use the Mechs.(And only while on the faction) This is probably the best solution because it would allow them to balance PvP numbers to balance the inferior IS Tech vs the superior Clan Tech. In other words by making the Clan stuff limited to a Clan faction they could have PvP battles be 12 IS vs 10 Clan. Sure, our stuff would be weaker than their stuff, but the 2 extra Mechs would make all the difference.

[Boldar]

VooDooPC, on 18 July 2012 - 02:38 PM, said:

Wolf's Dragoons had Clan Tech in the Inner Sphere in 3005, though I highly doubt they shared.

They had the access to clan tech, but they downgraded to IS tech. Otherwise one lost mech might have blown their cover.
But they had the means to produce their own mechs and parts, which put them ahead of most of the IS anyways

[Stormwolf]

VooDooPC, on 18 July 2012 - 02:38 PM, said:

Wolf's Dragoons had Clan Tech in the Inner Sphere in 3005, though I highly doubt they shared.

They produced Clan tech in the 3040's at the Outreach, but they didn't deploy it untill they revealed their origins.


Also, the Successor States can produce Clan tech in the 3060's, but it's so expensive that they can't mass produce it. One Clan mech would have the same cost as a full lance of the same weight Class, so it isn't particularly feasible.

A good example here is that NAIS could produce Clan ER Large Lasers, but even they lamented that they didn't have the proper assembly lines.

[Mattrixx]

I have a feeling that all this salvage so many of you speak of won't be seen as tangible parts and mechs but in C-bills from successful battles at the end of the match.
As in all that fine loot and salvage you so crave and desire will be turned into money on the spot with none of you ever seeing a single piece of equipment in any form or shape. That is unless you let everyone else everywhere have that same loot/salvage access to any clan tech you find or get.
And I highly suspect that none of you would agree to anything such.

I would not hold my breath waiting to see any salvaged parts, modules and mechs unless everyone else gets them too. But be pleased you get paid for the fights at least.

The amount of C-bills you get from a battle will perhaps be larger if you can disable vehicles (shoot the legs) instead of just blast them to smithereens with as much firepower as you can manage.
Something to take into consideration in your (general you) battle tactics in game.

Edited by Mattrixx, 19 July 2012 - 12:56 AM.

[VanillaG]

Stormwolf, on 19 July 2012 - 12:23 AM, said:

They produced Clan tech in the 3040's at the Outreach, but they didn't deploy it untill they revealed their origins.


Also, the Successor States can produce Clan tech in the 3060's, but it's so expensive that they can't mass produce it. One Clan mech would have the same cost as a full lance of the same weight Class, so it isn't particularly feasible.

A good example here is that NAIS could produce Clan ER Large Lasers, but even they lamented that they didn't have the proper assembly lines.

I think that this is a pretty good indication that we as players will never be able to get the Clan specs on the newer weapons, just the ones with the IS specs. The IS has an immediate need to get better weapons, not the best weapons, on their mechs as soon as possible to fight the Clans. The other thing to consider from the TT rules is that you cannot mix IS and Clan spec tech on the same chassis so you cannot refit IS mechs with Clan salvage.

So in the end I think that players will get new weapons and omnimechs, just the ones that are created in the IS with IS specs.

[Jakob Knight]

VanillaG, on 19 July 2012 - 07:49 AM, said:

So in the end I think that players will get new weapons and omnimechs, just the ones that are created in the IS with IS specs.

Which is not that bad, considering the IS copied most Clan designs. There is no reason they could not pull out a MadCat/Timberwolf skin and use the Rakshasa stats. Just a matter of when they would be introduced, especially since many players will be rebuilding their IS mechs to mimic their favorite Clan mechs from the start anyway.

[Alex Novian]

VanillaG, on 19 July 2012 - 07:49 AM, said:

The other thing to consider from the TT rules is that you cannot mix IS and Clan spec tech on the same chassis so you cannot refit IS mechs with Clan salvage.

Hmmmm, that was for the construction aspect of Battle Tech, you could Refit salvaged stuff, just not build a 'New' Mech with both.

[Mattrixx]

I have also read somewhere on this site or was it sarna (probably here in MWO-site) that when the modular omni-mechs do come that thought they can fit any weapon in the hard points they will be having difficulties fitting improved electronics and such upgrades in return.

[Thomato]

While it's a cool thought to keep it extremely canon I don't want to wait ~10 years to get clan tech. Giving players the option of joining the clans at the start of the invasion seems to be a decent way to handle it.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Yeah, but how do you balance Clan vs IS matches? 5 clanners versus 8 IS mechs? I'd prefer to see mixed tech open up much sooner so you can still do 4v4 (or 8v8 or 12v12) matches.

[Rixx]

First off, in any MMO game, you need to think of yourself as the hero, not just another random rank and file soldier that barely passed his training and was lucky enough to pilot a mech when the guy who you are replacing somehow ran himself over with his own mech. You are the elite soldier that is going to get first pickings of new tech and salvaged gear. You're not the guy on some backwater planet piloting a heavily used hunchback with an AC20 that jams every other shot because the techs assigned to the planet can figure out the difference between an AC20 ammo feed unit and a heat sink.
You aren't Kai or Victor, but your one of those warriors that was good enough to be in the unit lead by those guys. You get the good stuff before it trickles down to the reserve units guarding latrines on some fringe world.

Anytime I see talk of the clan invasion, I like to share my dream vision of how it could happen.

The clan invasion starts as a Dev/AI controlled event. We are all IS freeborn warrior afterall right, we can't just volunteer to join the clans like we can defect to another faction.
We continue our typical battles, but during certain times, the Devs run controlled battles of Clan vs us scenarios letting us reinact the various battles during the invasion. Even if we win a 12v12 though, thats just one small skirmish in a planet wide battle and doesn't tip the scales in our favor.
After some allotted time (say 6 months), the rules change.

Players can not join the clans....but, they don't get to join as full clan warriors. They are bondsmen, captured during combat. They are slaves that can earn their way back to a warrior status.

Players that join the clans have to give up all purchases made with C-Bills. So their mech garage is wiped out of all purchased mechs and gear (they get to keep founder mechs or other purchases with MC). Not only that, but they start with zero clan honor, just like starting in a new IS faction (loyalty). Their pilot xp would reset also. New mechs, new tech, new equipment. Your training is no longer valid, and your command abilities obviously have no pull in the clans. A fresh bondsman with zero honor will only have access to limited equipment. They could only purchase non-omni clan mechs, and the most powerful clan weaponry/equipment would be inaccesable.

As they battle, they gain clan honor (loyalty), and gain access to more mechs, gear, equipment, weapons. They also start to rebuild their pilot xp.

The Dev controlled phase would give them huge advantages in tech allowing them to win most battles.
The player controlled phase would start with weakened clan warriors limited by their low loyalty and loss of pilot xp. This would help even the balance out. Sure, they still have that founder atlas, but they can't buy a clan AC20. Sure they can get clan mechs, but only lights, and only basic weapons.
As the clan player's average loyalty level rises they become more powerful gaining access to gear and xp, thus causing an imbalance again. This can easily be righted by releasing new IS tech. As the average clan loyalty hits certain points on a scale, new IS weaponry and mechs are released for purchase. They could even do limited clan tech releases to the IS factions (for the next 48 hours you can buy clan er med lasers and the hunchback IIc chassis).

The timeline for tech/chassis release would end up not following canon exactly, but it would give the desired result of balanced gameplay while preserving the experience of the initial clan invasion, being a bondsman, and the IS tech advance during and after the initial invasion.

[Jakob Knight]

There is nothing you can do with Clantech that you can't do with IS tech. All Clantech does is make it easier. I doubt we would see any change in the game if everyone had Clantech than if no one had Clantech. In truth, if the game never introduces Clantech, it won't suffer at all. The battles will still be against pilots using the weapons available to everyone to win victory against the forces facing them.

As for players being taken as bondsmen and working up to being Clan warriors, I already posted something about this on another thread, but I will summarize here. It will never happen. The Clans view -all- Freeborn as second-class people, or no people at all, and do not permit them to pilot front-line units. Ever. Some Clans will summarily execute any Freeborn found at the controls of a military vehicle, while others who push the limits of Clan law only go so far as to allow them to pilot antique models (read: Star League/Inner Sphere units). Do not think the Phelan Kell's story is at all the norm...that was solely the result of the Il-Kahn's personal intervention, and won't happen in any other case (and it should be noted that he was only allowed to pilot a refitted IS mech design, not an Omnimech. It can be assumed this was as far as even an Il-Kahn's directives could push Clan law). Any IS pilot captured by the Clans will face either instant death or -might- work many months to be able to pilot the mechs they already were using.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 20 July 2012 - 08:42 AM.

[VanillaG]

Jakob Knight, on 20 July 2012 - 08:40 AM, said:

There is nothing you can do with Clantech that you can't do with IS tech. All Clantech does is make it easier. I doubt we would see any change in the game if everyone had Clantech than if no one had Clantech. In truth, if the game never introduces Clantech, it won't suffer at all. The battles will still be against pilots using the weapons available to everyone to win victory against the forces facing them.

Actually Clantech is better than IS tech, just look at the ER Large Laser for instance. For the same amount of heat the Clan laser has longer range, more damage, weighs less, and takes up less critical space. In general, this allows the Clans to field mechs that have more firepower, mobility, and protection for a given weight.

If/When clans are introduced, the matchmaking system will need to take into account the advantages or new players will be at a distinct disadvantage. Imagine 1 year after Clantech is introduced and all of the long term players are rolling around in Clan mechs ROFLStomping new players because their starter mechs just aren't up to the task. This creates an environment where there is a perception that they will have to grind through IS mechs before they are competitive. It give a perception that the game has become p2w, and well all know that p2w is the path to the darkside

[VanillaG]

Alex Novian, on 19 July 2012 - 07:51 PM, said:

Hmmmm, that was for the construction aspect of Battle Tech, you could Refit salvaged stuff, just not build a 'New' Mech with both.

I was referencing the construction aspect as well as something that I ran across on Sarna about OmniMechs. Here is what leads me to believe that you can only mix Clan/IS tech on omnimechs, not standard chassis

Quote

While Inner Sphere and Clan technologies are generally incompatible with each other with regard to repairs, this does not apply to OmniPods, with Inner Sphere OmniMechs able to mount Clan pods and Clan Omni's able to equip Inner Sphere pods interchangeably

If it were possible to mix Clan/IS as a repair, there would not be a limitation on creating a new mech with mixed tech.