41 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

I could be amenable to locking parts of another tree if you focus on a certain tree.

It depends a lot on what the goals are and the resulting tree.

[Nightbird]

Gas Guzzler, on 11 February 2017 - 08:21 AM, said:

Also, you said the Ebon is a Master of all trades? How is it in a brawl?

Basically the cool run and heat containment, along with the lower agility is pretty much a given, and durability is strongly recommended. I think if you want to fully skil up two weapon trees your are going to sacrifice a big.part of one of those.

Haha just that I got everything I wanted out of each skill tree, while it's true that with more nodes I could make my build better, it has everything I 'need'.

Basically among 2 weapon trees, heat containment, cool run, survival, speed, infotech, and upper agility, i.e. 8 things, I feel you can get 7 (or 6 going deeper into the weapon trees). If you could only max out 1, then that would be a hard choice

Edited by ironnightbird, 11 February 2017 - 04:59 PM.

[Nightbird]

Deathlike, on 11 February 2017 - 02:14 PM, said:

I could be amenable to locking parts of another tree if you focus on a certain tree.

It depends a lot on what the goals are and the resulting tree.

The goals presented here are: allowing specialization of mechs to increase the depth of the game (whereas the current PTS tree is roughly equivalent to live), preventing OP combinations that could break the game, while still permitting current jack of all trades if you want a well balanced mech with no strengths or weaknesses.

Edited by ironnightbird, 12 February 2017 - 11:31 AM.

[Nightbird]

Update 2-12:
Thanks for the comments thus far. One of the main concerns brought up is the blocking off of entire sections of nodes as you specialize. I feel this is necessary to prevent game breaking combinations, but a possible compromise is to add unique and powerful skills upon reaching Tier 2 and Tier 3 as compensation of the loss of other nodes.

Some ideas:
Infotech Tier 2: Omniscience I > within the center comprising half of your field of view, target-able mechs are targeted automatically for you and your teammates. Target retention and info gathering also occur. Radar deprivation and ECM still act as counters.
Infotech Tier 3: Omniscience II > within your full field of view, target-able mechs are targeted automatically for you and your teammates. Target retention and info gathering also occur. Radar deprivation and ECM still act as counters.

Survival Tier 2: Resilience I > -15% critical damage taken, this applies to both damage to components and bonus damage to structure
Survival Tier 3: Resilience II > -15% (30% cumulative) critical damage taken, this applies to both damage to components and bonus damage to structure

Mobility Tier 2: Balance > No stagger upon losing a leg, 50kph cap on one leg is also removed.
Mobility Tier 3: Cloud Step > Fall damage reduced by 90%, jump jets recharge at 25% of normal rate while air borne and not in use.

Firepower Tier 2: Accuracy I > +20% critical chance
Firepower Tier 3: Accuracy II > +20% critical chance (40% cumulative)

Edited by ironnightbird, 12 February 2017 - 12:21 PM.

[Nightbird]

Hoping for more feedback. Assuming the current node costs and benefits are tweaked per the other suggestions out there, would that be enough or would the roles conferred with a deeper tree give meaning the the skill tree system?

[Nightbird]

Last request for comments

[Nightbird]

bump 1/3

[MacClearly]

Personally would rather see the garbage we don't need hidden behind the decent stuff and get less points...

[Nightbird]

Yes, there is a thread for that too if you want to bump it for pgi to see.

[Chound]

ironnightbird, on 09 February 2017 - 08:43 PM, said:

Would it though? To get that 22.5% speed tweak, it has no survival (hitpoints boost), no infotech (radar derp, seismic), no firepower (range, duration, cooldown), so what can it do?

For range, duration, cooldown, there are still the base rates because what jwe are doing is enhancing the ability This would primarily affect new abilities enabled through the use of modules. PGI is nerfing the base values to some mechs. structure quirks are being converted to armor boosts You would need to check the numbers carefully to see if the base rates are any different.That would be the place to adjust. The skills have all been nerfed so there will be no net improvement over what we have now.. To prevent boating, there would need to be firm rules about what can be placed on the mech. LRM boats are harder to make with only one missle hardpoint and 3 slots instead of allocating space for three launchers. There are times when boating might be a good idea.

[Nightbird]

Update 2-15: I'll try to explain the balance mechanism a bit more

Take 2 Cheetas, built exactly the same way with 6 small pulse lasers, ECM, and piloted by pilots of exactly the same skill. How would it play out differently if the Cheeta only differed on skill tree choices, specifically if it were boosted to Tier 3 Firepower, Survival, Mobility, or Infotech respectively?

Tier 3 Firepower versus Tier 3 Survival:
Neither has a info or mobility advantage, so suppose the fight starts face to face. Firepower has more range, shorter burn duration, and higher dps, but Survival can shrug the damage off. The fight outcome depends on each's ability to focus damage on components, with the caveat that while it's easier for Firepower to dish it out, Survival can take it.

Tier 3 Firepower/Survival versus Tier 3 Mobility:
Mobility does not want to fight a fair fight, mobility wants to evade, circle, and ambush Firepower/Survival at every opportunity, which it can do with superior speed, turn, and jump jets. Firepower/Survival recognizes this, so if Firepower/Survival finds a corner and waits, a stalemate occurs. If Mobility attacks head on, Mobility loses, so Mobility stays away. If Firepower/Survival doesn't choose stalemate, then if Firepower/Survival catches Mobility in the open where Mobility cannot escape right away, Firepower/Survival wins. If Mobility succeeds in successively choosing good ambush locations, then Mobility wins. The advantage still lies with Firepower/Survival, since any mistakes on Mobility's part results in death, however Mobility gets to choose the place and time of the engagement.

Tier 3 Infotech versus Tier 3 Firepower/Survival/Mobility
Infotech's only advantage is choosing the location of engagement. With a 600 meter radius seismic, Infotech will find out the location of Firepower/Survival/Mobility without ever exposing itself. Having no advantages in a fair fight, Infotech's only chance at victory is a fatal sneak attack to the back. This is easiest against Firepower, which has no mobility nor durability advantage. Escape is still a possibility if the sneak attack fails. The sneak attack itself is hardest to succeed against Survival, which can likely survive not only instant death, but perhaps even prevent the loss of a side torso. However, Mobility presents the hardest challenge, as it can turn the fastest to avoid a fatal wound and also escape is impossible once detected so there is no second chance. The fight will be close, but Mobility will have a much easier time spreading damage and will emerge the victor. As the weakest fighter, Infotech's strength is in providing Intel to a team and improving its overall effectiveness, not 1vs1 combat.

Edited by ironnightbird, 15 February 2017 - 04:24 PM.

[Chound]

ironnightbird, on 10 February 2017 - 09:33 PM, said:

For most mechs, is there any decision other than infotech or some additional weapon nodes? Pretty much everything else is a necessity right? If you throw in some upper mech mobility, oh boy, we're really going wild

We need more nodes so we can skill out more than one weapon. That will encourage people to use more than one weapon but I don't know how to limit the amount they use beyond what is in place now especially ith clan ompnis. I've tried to make an energy, balistic, or missle variant that might be boats.

[Tlords]

Hell ya! I love this idea.

Imagine an Atlas geared up for survivalist. Nearly impossible to take down. Slow as molasses, with no weapon quirks - It'd pilot that Atlas any day...

Again - love the idea. More diversity is what we need.

[Old-dirty B]

Not sure about the details of this idea, but thats irrelevant for now but i expected the new skill tree system to be along the lines of this concept. The system should allow the user to greatly improve one aspect at the cost of others or improve all aspects a bit (or anything in between), only this way we can see diversity and variety.

[Nightbird]

I'm not fixated on any of the details either, just diversity, impactful choices, and meaning to having a skill tree at all.

[Nightbird]

Bump 2/3

[Crockdaddy]

I like the ideas.

[Philadelphia Collins]

I like this idea, it would create mech specializations instead of basic efficiency levels that all mechs require to be competitive.

[Nightbird]

I see a lot of suggestion threads that are Quality of Life improvements on the skill tree, such as simplifying node sequences, grouping skills, reducing the number of nodes, balancing costs, etc. The draft skill tree is in itself a QoL update on the current skill system in that most of the selections one would make is fixed (versus all options currently). This idea is different in that it actually enforces a tree, where going down one branch leads to a different set of tactics and gameplay experiences than going down another, and that adds fun and depth to the game.

[Bellum Dominum]

I like what I am reading for the most part ... and yes here is the but ...I'm not crazy about the because I choose X I'm automatically stopped from taking Y even if I have the points to do so. Keep limitations through the points instead of +X=-Y.

For example: Say there was only 4 pts to spend. (Grossly over simplifying)
You have choices:
Speed
Armor
Weapons
Tech

Obviously one could jack of all trades, be a master of one, really good at 2 but only average on the other two... etc. Done simply by the amount of choices available and the available points to put into them. It is certainly more work for a creator/dev to come up with because they really have to get creative with some of the options available at 'higher tiers' to entice people to go into them but it follows the OP.