7 replies to this topic

[mdmzero0]

Hi all!

I'm here to make another feedback post, and to gather information with a minor poll. I'm not going to go into the actual state of the skill tree here, beyond stating my personal belief is it's not ready for primetime yet. There's plenty of feedback to be found, so I'm not going to restate that.

Instead, I want to once again shed light on one of the biggest problems the skill tree is currently facing: transition costs.

That's right- there is a huge issue with the transition from the current skill/module system, to the new skill tree system going live March 21st. Simply put- the cost to re-master your mechs is too high for the current refund plan PGI has proposed. Let's get down to it.

The current plan per PGI- you get a full refund for all of your purchased modules.

So what's the problem? The module system was designed to allow you to switch modules from one mech to another. This creates a potential (and I believe to be common) scenario in which you may have far more mastered (or elited, or some other level of "skilled") mechs than you have modules.

The current skill tree numbers has the system going live at a total cost of 5,460,000 c-bills and 72,800 XP in order to unlock 91 nodes (the maximum) for your mech. This is the new "mastery+modules+consumables" in-one system. I'm not going to debate the economy of such a system, but there's a pretty good look included here: https://www.reddit.c..._a_whales_song/

Instead- I'll break down how this will effect the transition, e.g., when March 21st hits and suddenly you have no more modules, no more skills on your mechs, and a whole bunch of clicking to do.

Let's do the math.
Assume the following:
- 0 cbill balance prior to patch (e.g., just comparing refunds to required cbills)
- The maximum possible modules on a mech (3 mech modules, two weapon modules)
- The most expensive modules possible (3x 6,000,000 mech modules, 2x 3,000,000 weapon modules, 24,000,000 c-bills total)

Under these assumptions, a full mech's worth of refunds (24,000,000 c-bills) will get you enough c-bills to "master" approximately 4 mechs (with a bit left over). So in this scenario, you only require a full "set" of modules for every 4 mastered mechs you own for the refunds to cover your costs incurred by the new skill tree.

Doesn't seem too bad, right? But those assumptions are some pretty serious ones. Let's go for a bit more realistic.
- Most mechs have 4, not 5 total module slots (2 mech, 2 weapon)

Update that, with the most expensive weapon modules you have a total of 18,000,000 c-bills for a set of modules. Suddenly, the refund gets you enough to "master" 3 mechs.

So what's the issue? Well, the module system was designed to allow you to swap modules between mechs. If you don't have a full set of modules for every 3 mastered mechs, you will most likely be unable to have the same quantity of mastered mechs under the new skill tree system. Players who swap modules will lose some portion of their "progress" in mastering mechs due to the transition to this new system.

As a personal example, I have 113,000,000 c-bills in modules. Yet, I have 46 mastered mechs (not counting fully elite'd, partially elite'd, fully basic'd, and partially basic'd mechs). The c-bill cost I will need to re-master my mechs is 251,160,000 c-bills. I will be able to master 20 of my 46 currently mastered mechs. This is an unacceptable state of affairs.

So what can be done to fix this? Simple- give a refund based upon the current mastery status of owned mechs. If you have a fully mastered mech, you should receive a refund capable of achieving mastery in the new system (5,460,000 c-bills and 72,800 xp). There should be zero loss of progress due to the unveiling of the new system. In addition- since modules are being removed, the currently planned refund of module costs should also occur. In addition, this could be calculated based off of percentage of skills unlocked- so that any elite skills or basic skills on a mech can also be preserved.

What do I mean? For example:

1 mastered mech gives you: 5,460,000 c-bills and 72,800 xp.
50% of the skills unlocked on a mech gives you: 2,730,000 c-bills and 36,400 xp.

All progress is retained.

I am of the belief that there are many people like me who have swapped modules and stand to lose progress with this transition to the new skill tree (hence the poll). Implementing this change would stand to do a lot of good towards ensuring that those players at least give the new skill tree a try.

Think this isn't a good idea? Read here first.

Spoiler

Collected Rebuttals and Responses for Refunding Mastery

PGI wants a c-bill sink for veteran players
Happy players become veteran players. Happy players spend money, earn c-bills, play the game. Taking away the progress veteran players have made in the game is not a way to make happy players.

Fully speccing a mech gives more benefit than fully mastering in the current system
This is true, but remember that modules and consumables have been removed. To achieve a fully mastered, moduled mech, you need the full skill tree benefits. Again, removing modules and only giving enough of a refund to achieve what would currently be mastery status on the live server is removing a player's progress.

PGI never intended for you to just swap modules instead of buying multiples for your mechs
PGI may not have intended it, but that's exactly what they did. The module system has allowed swapping, and was designed for module swapping, since the first day it was implemented. You don't have to do some crazy work-around to switch a module from one mech to another, you just click and drag, and hit save. This system was made for swapping modules, intended or not.

Just sell your mechs you don't want
This is assuming that people have mechs mastered they don't want or like. Regardless of that, being forced to sell mechs in order to master others is still a loss of progress in the game, and is not an acceptable solution.

You're not entitled to get everything you want in a new system (or any post that has to do with the concept of entitlement)
And PGI is not entitled to have people play their game. They should want to make the playerbase happy.

[Ramasee Aletus]

The problem with refunding based on experience in each comes is that when people decide not to remaster a mech. At that point they would be giving you free C-Bills; which PGI particularly doesn't want to do. (I don't blame them for that.)

]I believe that PGI should offer a week of CBILL free mech skill purchasing for every account starting when that account first logs in after the implementation. If they do not do this, they will piss of their older (and much more loyal) playerbase. They could even keep this in the game indefinitely marketing it as a new account bonus (like the first 25 matches giving cbills)

Edited by Ramasee Aletus, 09 March 2017 - 06:05 PM.

[Kali Rinpoche]

Ramasee Aletus, on 09 March 2017 - 06:04 PM, said:

I believe that PGI should offer a week of CBILL free mech skill purchasing for every account starting when that account first logs in after the implementation. If they do not do this, they will piss of their older (and much more loyal) playerbase. They could even keep this in the game indefinitely marketing it as a new account bonus (like the first 25 matches giving cbills)

I could live with this. Or make each mastered mech have 1 golden token that allows for 1- 91 point spec'ing. (one time use)(Mastered Mechs Only)

[mdmzero0]

Ramasee Aletus, on 09 March 2017 - 06:04 PM, said:

The problem with refunding based on experience in each comes is that when people decide not to remaster a mech. At that point they would be giving you free C-Bills; which PGI particularly doesn't want to do. (I don't blame them for that.)

]I believe that PGI should offer a week of CBILL free mech skill purchasing for every account starting when that account first logs in after the implementation. If they do not do this, they will piss of their older (and much more loyal) playerbase. They could even keep this in the game indefinitely marketing it as a new account bonus (like the first 25 matches giving cbills)

So give free unlocks for each mech based on the mastery level. The problem with having a "c-bill free" period is what about people whp may not be able to log on during that time? Do they just get screwed over?

Personally, I don't think flooding players with refunded c-bills is a bad thing. If they don't want to use it to master mechs, they'll use it for something else, like buying and playing other mechs. And if they just want to sit on c-bills, it really shouldn't matter to PGI as long as they're happy and keep playing. Number one priority for PGI should always be maintaining a happy playerbase, not trying to make sure players always have to grind.

[soapyfrog]

If there was ever a post on these forums that PGI needed to read and understand, it is this one.

[Domenoth]

mdmzero0, on 09 March 2017 - 05:24 PM, said:

As a personal example, I have 113,000,000 c-bills in modules. Yet, I have 46 mastered mechs (not counting fully elite'd, partially elite'd, fully basic'd, and partially basic'd mechs). The c-bill cost I will need to re-master my mechs is 251,160,000 c-bills. I will be able to master 20 of my 46 currently mastered mechs. This is an unacceptable state of affairs.

I have also done the math. I'm getting about 360,000,000 CBills in modules. I'm going to need 766,000,000 CBills just to spend my Historical Exp refund*. I'm going to be short 390,000,000 CBills.

* My calculations are for getting everything previously mastered up to 72 Skill Points, not even 91.

Ramasee Aletus, on 09 March 2017 - 06:04 PM, said:

The problem with refunding based on experience in each comes is that when people decide not to remaster a mech. At that point they would be giving you free C-Bills; which PGI particularly doesn't want to do. (I don't blame them for that.)

]I believe that PGI should offer a week of CBILL free mech skill purchasing for every account starting when that account first logs in after the implementation. If they do not do this, they will piss of their older (and much more loyal) playerbase. They could even keep this in the game indefinitely marketing it as a new account bonus (like the first 25 matches giving cbills)

Yes, I agree refunding CBills could be bad because there's nothing to ensure players will spend it on Skill Points. That's not the only possible solution though that would satisfy us long-term players. If instead of Historical EXP, PGI refunded Historical Skill Points equal to Historical EXP/800, I doubt very many people would be upset by that.

The overall point is, what they are doing is demoralizing and instead of rushing it out they door, they should come up with a solution that addresses our concerns and theirs. Compromise instead of doing something this one-sided.

[Ramasee Aletus]

mdmzero0, on 09 March 2017 - 07:08 PM, said:

So give free unlocks for each mech based on the mastery level. The problem with having a "c-bill free" period is what about people whp may not be able to log on during that time? Do they just get screwed over?

I already addressed that concern in my post.

Ramasee Aletus, on 09 March 2017 - 06:04 PM, said:

I believe that PGI should offer a week of CBILL free mech skill purchasing for every account starting when that account first logs in after the implementation. If they do not do this, they will piss of their older (and much more loyal) playerbase. They could even keep this in the game indefinitely marketing it as a new account bonus (like the first 25 matches giving cbills)

The CBILL free week would start for an account the day it first logs in.

[mdmzero0]

Ramasee Aletus, on 10 March 2017 - 05:23 AM, said:

I already addressed that concern in my post.



The CBILL free week would start for an account the day it first logs in.

Whoops, must have missed that. But yeah, your solution also seems viable. I'm not hardover on my solution being the end-all answer, I'm okay with any manner of handling the transition that does not result in losing skill status for mechs I own, or having to sell mechs, etc.