15 replies to this topic

[CyberDashie]

Long post ahead. Be Advised...


I am working on my Shadow Cat Prime at current. Not going to lie, the Skill tree seems interesting and will be a rewarding way to tweak your builds, especially with Clan Omnimechs. However, My primary concern is cost vs. reward. This is what I see so far...

I have 144,682XP on this chassis. I figured this would go far and would get me pretty much all the skills I could want for this mech. Unfortunately, that is not the case. First, I am being limited more by the Skill Points (Red SP), which seem to cost 100,000CBills each. You get 1,500SP per XP, which I suppose seems fair. Still, if you think that is affordable, you would be wrong...

By the way, for those not paying close attention, or those who are not great at math, this means I will be paying Nine Million, One Hundred Thousand Cbills for only One Chassis... Which is not even finished (limited by SP).
Fun conversions:
144,682XP = 91 SP = 9,100,000CBills

Now, I am going to go into a little extra detail here.

I currently run a U/AC20 on this Shadow Cat (Say what you will, but I make it work), so my primary Skill Tree was the Ultra Autocannon tree.There are 20 nodes in the tree, which means I need 20 SP, or 30,000 XP + 2Million CBills for this one Tree.

Especially in my Shadow Cat, I rely on my jump jets quite a bit and I am pleased to see a skill tree dedicated to them. There are 15 Nodes = 15SP, or 22,500XP + 150,000 CBills.

Not a bad number, but...
Are you starting to see my issue?

Just for two complete trees, I am looking at paying Two Million, One Hundred and Fifty Thousand CBills. Not a huge number, but I still have 2 Complete Skill Trees to add in and one I am close to completing, but am missing SP. Not XP... SP. I have the XP to finish the tree, but not SP.


I will not spell out the rest of the trees for the sake of length, but to put is simply; the Lower Chassis Tree (Hard Brake, Speed Tweak, etc) has 20 nodes and the Mech Operations Tree (Quick Ignition, Cool Run etc) has 22 nodes...

Both are finished for me btw, which costs an additional 42 SP, for the low price of 4Million, Two Hundred Thousand CBills.

Finally, the Defensive Tree (which contains AMS Overload, but I do not need that here... plus Armor and Fall Damage reduction) has 17 nodes, but I only have 14 open (not using AMS). I have the XP to open my last node, but I guess I am short on SP. Not a big deal.


As I previously stated, I am looking at shelling out 9,100,000CBills to get my Shadow Cat as far as I can for now...

Here is the kicker: What quirks am I adding for those 9MillionCBills?

+10% UAC Range
+20% UAC Velocity
-4% UAC Cooldown
-15% UAC Jam Chance
+4 UAC20 Ammo Capacity (Nice)
+16% Armor Bonus
-50% Fall Damage (Excellent!)
+7.5% Mech Top Speed
+5% Initial Thrust of Jump Jets
+30% Forward Thrust of Jump Jets
+5% Jump Jet Burn Time (Nice)
-35% Startup Duration
+15% Max Heat
+10% Heat Dissipation
+15% Hill Climb
-50% Screen Shake
+30% Speed Retention (50KM/H Cap)
+50% Acceleration Rate
+50% Deceleration Rate


Not a bad list of extras, but is it worth 9 Million One Hundred Thousand CBills?

Remember, this is only one of my 23 Mechs. If I factor that I could put 50SP on even 20 of my Mechs, I am looking at, what... 100Million CBills? That is not even getting a single Chassis finished.


Consider this as well... My Shadow Cat primarily uses the U/AC20. If you are using multiple types, you are looking at extra trees, plus I did not even touch my Upper Chassis Tree, or my Sensor Tree.


TL;DR

I feel like SP is too expensive for what you are getting. Keep in mind,you have to activate certain nodes to unlock other ones.

Feel free to discuss.



P.S.

I feel like there is a better way to lay out the skill trees than to line it all up sideways. Maybe stack the weapon ones together, or something? Make a bigger tree out of the smaller trees! xD

[CyberDashie]

[Fox2232]

Yes, It is worth the cost 5 times over. Because 1/3rd of those mentioned bonuses were called "Modules" till now.
Average cost of Module is around 10000GXP + 4 million C-Bills.
And new tree allows you to pick any number of those previously called "Modules" instead of just 4.

One of my build would cost 60 millions C-Bills just on bonuses gained from modules. And time needed for new player to unlock those modules = Time to gain 140 thousands GXP.

But I am happy to actually see here player who took time to count that stuff together as I did.
- - - -
btw: "There are 15 Nodes = 15SP, or 22,500XP + 150,000 CBills."
1.5 million is what you meant and later you used 150k value for further calculation. (Just saying, so you know that I did read what you wrote.)

[Tiantara]

- But unlocked modules was unlocked for all mech and all you need - buy module, install it and use. When you play no more with that mech - take it back and install to another mech. So you use only once GXP to unlock all skill not for each mech from the start.

[Fox2232]

Tiantara, on 09 February 2017 - 01:10 PM, said:

- But unlocked modules was unlocked for all mech and all you need - buy module, install it and use. When you play no more with that mech - take it back and install to another mech. So you use only once GXP to unlock all skill not for each mech from the start.

That is if you play one mech at a time. Now you can play magnitude more mech with tons of Modules at fraction of cost.

[Cy Mitchell]

Also, if you Mastered a Prime variant with the old system then all your Prime variants were Mastered. Now you have to level up each one independently.

[DAYLEET]

Fox2232, on 09 February 2017 - 01:17 PM, said:

That is if you play one mech at a time. Now you can play magnitude more mech with tons of Modules at fraction of cost.

You cant be serious. You could play any number of mech you wanted before by switching modules and you could easily change their roles and loadout at no cbills cost AND no "time consuming" cost.

Now you will be severely restrained in what mech you play because it cost 9million to master it and then it cost millions every time you wish to tweak it. About the time cost, If you chose to pay to try something different it will set you back 5 minutes rather than 20 seconds and that's if you know the tree and exactly what you want otherwise it's a bigger time sink. Numbers are not accurate and are irrelevant, they only serve to show that you are losing both cash and time, not the amount.

The skill tree is very nice, i like it and i wish i could play with it. But with this system ill have about 2 weeks before i cant buy Mastery, can't buy gear, can't buy mech, can't buy anything. So at this point, after 2 weeks, i either sell everything i cannot sustain in this new "economy" or just go play another game, im already playing another game and id like to be back.

[metallio]

Fox2232, on 09 February 2017 - 01:17 PM, said:

That is if you play one mech at a time. Now you can play magnitude more mech with tons of Modules at fraction of cost.

No...you can only play the mechs you can afford to play at that level. Even with only buying a single variant this matches or exceeds the previous price because you only had to buy that module "once" before. Now you buy it every time and maybe whether or not you care to have it since many unpopular options are required to access popular ones.

...and you don't get to stop paying for it then. You so much as sneeze at your module preferences and you're out hundreds of thousands of cbills. Go to totally different tree (swapping ERPPCs for ACs or going from sniper to scout or fast brawler) and you're out millions...more than the cost of the original mech for a locust. That's every single time you toy with your spec.

It's only cheaper the day you spec it out the first time and only if you don't actually LIKE having multiple mechs.

Now, that's just Cbills. For XP it's actually a heck of a lot MORE than you had in that thing than before...considering these are just different fake internet points I think you should consider that the cost actually went way up for that mech you're thinking is cheaper now. It's like two mechs instead of three for XP and if you didn't bother with the extra module slot it's more than triple.

For one mech. For clans that's not quite as big a deal because omnipods, but if you want a CT that's different it darn sure still matters.

All of this adds up to a giant WTF on cost. Unless you only want to play 2-3 mech variants your entire time on MWO and rarely touch the spec even when balance changes are made.

[tokumboh]

Wow people have been saying some weird stuff on the forums, there apears to be some alternative facts. So let me be clear.
If I played faction warfare, scout and invasion I would need at most 5 modules of each type. and that is if I decided to have something similar to the same build on each for example Radar derp, seismic, LPL cooldown and Range to meet the meta although for scout you know it SRM and small laser or small pulse.

Now if you have very few mechs I would say under single digits then it does make sense that the skill system is cheaper and possibly more conveinient. but even me as a casual player have accumulated 80 mechs now granted there are some that because of the skill tree I would most probably sell but I would not be selling any of my heavies for example and that is 20 mechs and of my assaults only 3 of the 20 variants I would be looking to sell and indeed I would replace them with other variants that I would buy instead
Of my mediums which I am learning to pilot now again I have 20 keepers only of the light would I find the number of mech could be thought of in single digits, and even there I would buy certain mechs in an instant such a the viper hero as an example

Simply put whether you think it is a good idea or not the economics of this Skill tree is mopre expensive if you play more than a few mechs or have a shed load of mechs mastered and have but a few modules that you share. Even if you play FW you only need at most 4 of each module.

Now you could say just live with it but don't say it is cheaper or in anyway equivalent since for those that are casuals have lots of mechs it isn't

Now there is an argument that says for the future this may be good for new pilots but there are few of us here that are new with only 4 mechs TBH

[Y E O N N E]

Fox2232, on 09 February 2017 - 01:17 PM, said:

That is if you play one mech at a time. Now you can play magnitude more mech with tons of Modules at fraction of cost.

And a fraction of the performance...

[CyberDashie]

Fox2232, on 09 February 2017 - 01:02 PM, said:

btw: "There are 15 Nodes = 15SP, or 22,500XP + 150,000 CBills."
1.5 million is what you meant and later you used 150k value for further calculation. (Just saying, so you know that I did read what you wrote.)

Good spot on that. I was scrambling to gather all my data before I had to bolt off to class. However, I must disagree strongly. It may be cheaper for a few mechs, but if you have more than 15, it gets outrageously expensive!

Rampage, on 09 February 2017 - 01:22 PM, said:

Also, if you Mastered a Prime variant with the old system then all your Prime variants were Mastered. Now you have to level up each one independently.

On top of that,if you happen to have multiple of the same variant, you have to split the XP between them.

metallio, on 09 February 2017 - 01:42 PM, said:

No...you can only play the mechs you can afford to play at that level. Even with only buying a single variant this matches or exceeds the previous price because you only had to buy that module "once" before. Now you buy it every time and maybe whether or not you care to have it since many unpopular options are required to access popular ones.

...and you don't get to stop paying for it then. You so much as sneeze at your module preferences and you're out hundreds of thousands of cbills. Go to totally different tree (swapping ERPPCs for ACs or going from sniper to scout or fast brawler) and you're out millions...more than the cost of the original mech for a locust. That's every single time you toy with your spec.

It's only cheaper the day you spec it out the first time and only if you don't actually LIKE having multiple mechs.

Now, that's just Cbills. For XP it's actually a heck of a lot MORE than you had in that thing than before...considering these are just different fake internet points I think you should consider that the cost actually went way up for that mech you're thinking is cheaper now. It's like two mechs instead of three for XP and if you didn't bother with the extra module slot it's more than triple.

For one mech. For clans that's not quite as big a deal because omnipods, but if you want a CT that's different it darn sure still matters.

All of this adds up to a giant WTF on cost. Unless you only want to play 2-3 mech variants your entire time on MWO and rarely touch the spec even when balance changes are made.

I agree with you wholeheartedly, Metallio! If you wanted to swap something as simple as an LBX20 in place of a U/AC20, or even an AC instead of a U/AC, you have to invest a lot of time and energy to unlock a completely different Skill Tree; complete with XP cost, which turns into SP AND the 2Million CBills... Not to even mention the price of the ammo and weapon itself if you do not already own it.

"But CyberDashie, that is cheaper than the current module for ONE of those."

Sure! Straight out of the gate, maybe.

Consider this:
A current module for the U/AC20 for range, is what... 4Million CBills? Okay... That appears to cover the cost of one for Both the U/AC20 and the conversion to, say, an LBX20, right? (mostly because someone said I should switch my U/AC20 over to one. Not my style...)

Wrong!

In my next post, I will show you where the "True cost" is hiding.

Edited by CyberDashie, 10 February 2017 - 05:42 AM.

[CyberDashie]

First, I would like to point out the "refund," if you desire to Respec your entire skill tree.

Interestingly enough, you actually get all your XP back.

However, you basically lose almost 7Million CBills...That is not even factoring in the 9Million or so CBills to "repurchase your skills."

We are looking to pay (if my calculation is correct) 17,925,000CBills for the full spec that I already did, plus the Respec (91SP)...

FOR ONE INCOMPLETE MECH AND ONE RESPEC...


There is one other way, but it costs more... If you ask me... This one is debatable. Depends on what you value most.

Edited by CyberDashie, 09 February 2017 - 10:29 PM.

[CyberDashie]

2Million CBills. Not so bad, right?

Meh. Remember... This is to swap Directly from a U/AC20 to an LBX20 in one Mech.

Factor in the fact that you need 30,000XP for those 20SP... That is a bunch of game time in that ONE chassis.

[50 50]

You get the XP refunded so it's really only the c-bill (or MC) cost.
The only thing to really remember is:

"XP returned after a respec will always be returned to the specific variant as 'Mech XP, regardless of whether you used GXP to unlock the Node.[/color]
It is important to keep that in mind when using GXP to unlock your Skill Nodes!"

Edited by 50 50, 09 February 2017 - 10:46 PM.

[CyberDashie]

Last post for now, but this is actually pretty interesting.

Instead of the insanely expensive Respec, while maintaining all of your XP...

Or, the laborious amount of playtime required to earn back 30,000XP (Remember grinding one Chassis just to get that second module slot?)

You could do it this way...

If you click your top skill in any Tree, you can remove all the SP from that Tree. This retains your XP/SP, but oddly enough, that costs 2,500,000CBills...

Ouch...

This means if you decide to do it this way and you realize you liked your Mech better with the U/AC20, you are paying 5Million CBills, just to experiment with ONE weapon swap (if you even own the LBX20 and the U/AC20)...

This is all for now. I want to go enjoy my MASTERED builds with our standard Module slots, before PGI decides to bill us to swap it all over...

Remember, everything changed when the Fire Nation attacked... Err... When PGI changed the Modules into a line of Skill Trees...

[CyberDashie]

50 50, on 09 February 2017 - 10:45 PM, said:

You get the XP refunded so it's really only the c-bill (or MC) cost.
The only thing to really remember is:

"XP returned after a respec will always be returned to the specific variant as 'Mech XP, regardless of whether you used GXP to unlock the Node.[/color]
It is important to keep that in mind when using GXP to unlock your Skill Nodes!"

I just realized what you meant. It costs that 2,250,000CBills to Respec. That makes sense.


Also, for all who are following this topic...

Let it be known that I am compiling my thoughts and findings in this thread, so I will be replying to it whenever I have extra info to share.