51 replies to this topic

[Znail]

Hotthedd, on 13 February 2017 - 07:36 AM, said:

I didn't say collecting 'mechs was bad, I said there should (as in the real world) be maintenance and transport fees associated with it.
Pokemech is not MechWarrior, Pokemech is not Battletech. Pokemech is Pokemech.

Buy all the 'mechs you want. Just don't expect to master them all for limited effort and expense.

So, what is your suggestion for how PGI is to pay their bills then? You may be happy that people wont be collecting as many mechs, but that wont pay for the games survival.

[Hotthedd]

Znail, on 13 February 2017 - 07:52 AM, said:

So, what is your suggestion for how PGI is to pay their bills then? You may be happy that people wont be collecting as many mechs, but that wont pay for the games survival.

Lots of things still cost MC.
Camos, paints, decals, converting XP into GXP (which I believe will happen a LOT once the new skill tree goes live), premium time, etc.
The people who still want to buy Mechpacks (to get the OP versions of mechs before the C-bill version nerf) will still do it.

[Znail]

Hotthedd, on 13 February 2017 - 07:56 AM, said:

Lots of things still cost MC.
Camos, paints, decals, converting XP into GXP (which I believe will happen a LOT once the new skill tree goes live), premium time, etc.
The people who still want to buy Mechpacks (to get the OP versions of mechs before the C-bill version nerf) will still do it.

So, no more reason for me to spend money on the game. I don't think this game is doing that great that losing income like this is a good idea.

The problem here is that you have a very specific idea of how the game is supposed to be and not be. This is a problem as the players who plays the game in the way you dislike are also the ones who pay for the games survival.

Edited by Znail, 13 February 2017 - 08:04 AM.

[Hotthedd]

Znail, on 13 February 2017 - 08:00 AM, said:

So, no more reason for me to spend money on the game. I don't think this game is doing that great that losing income like this is a good idea.

The problem here is that you have a very specific idea of how the game is supposed to be and not be. This is a problem as the players who plays the game in the way you dislike are also the ones who pay for the games survival.

What the hell are you talking about?
I don't care how you play the game. Play Pokemech to your heart's content.
If you are going to quit spending money, that is up to you. If collecting 'mechs cannot be fun for you unless you also get them maxxed out for little effort, that speaks to YOUR enjoyment of the game, not mine.

[Znail]

Hotthedd, on 13 February 2017 - 08:14 AM, said:

What the hell are you talking about?
I don't care how you play the game. Play Pokemech to your heart's content.
If you are going to quit spending money, that is up to you. If collecting 'mechs cannot be fun for you unless you also get them maxxed out for little effort, that speaks to YOUR enjoyment of the game, not mine.

If you don't care about how I play the game, then why do you like the high cost of maxing out my mechs? You seem to not like collecting mechs, so making it harder to collect mechs wont impact you at all, it's only others that will notice.

The problem with the effort is not a problem for me, it's a problem for PGI. The effort needed to max out the collection I already have is enough to keep me busy for the rest of this games life. Thus I don't need to collect any more mechs.

It wouldn't be quite as much of an issue if this system was how it was from the start, but there would still be issues. One issue is that while it will be cheaper to get one maxed out mech for a new player so will it be much more expensive to get it good enough. Before so could you still max out the skills without paying any c-bills, it were only the modules that cost. Now so will every node on the tree cost so if you want to get even half way decent mech so will you need to spend lots of c-bills. The new player boost is enough to get you one maxed out mech, but the second one will take a long while after that.

Another issue is the total cost of maxing out mechs getting higher makes it so that you will go longer between getting new mechs and this will make the game more boring. This will also mean that even new players will have less reason to spend money on mech packs or mech bays.

The short version is that I don't see any way for this to go live as is and if it does so will it cause a money crisis for the PGI.

[Hotthedd]

Znail, on 13 February 2017 - 08:43 AM, said:

If you don't care about how I play the game, then why do you like the high cost of maxing out my mechs? You seem to not like collecting mechs, so making it harder to collect mechs wont impact you at all, it's only others that will notice.

I believe the cost associated with mastering 'mechs has always been much too low. Making it cost more (in either time or money) forces people to either A) PLAY the game (which is good for PGI), or SPEND MONEY to reduce the grind (which is good for PGI)
Why you personalize the issue is beyond me.

Znail, on 13 February 2017 - 08:43 AM, said:

The problem with the effort is not a problem for me, it's a problem for PGI. The effort needed to max out the collection I already have is enough to keep me busy for the rest of this games life. Thus I don't need to collect any more mechs.

That sounds like a win for you. I'm not seeing the problem. Other Pokemech players will still collect 'mechs.

Znail, on 13 February 2017 - 08:43 AM, said:

It wouldn't be quite as much of an issue if this system was how it was from the start, but there would still be issues. One issue is that while it will be cheaper to get one maxed out mech for a new player so will it be much more expensive to get it good enough. Before so could you still max out the skills without paying any c-bills, it were only the modules that cost. Now so will every node on the tree cost so if you want to get even half way decent mech so will you need to spend lots of c-bills. The new player boost is enough to get you one maxed out mech, but the second one will take a long while after that.

You contradict yourself. It cannot both be cheaper to get a 'mech maxed out AND be more expensive to get it "good enough". Yes, you spend more c-bills per skill point, but you no longer need to buy 3 mechs (and upgrade them all).

Znail, on 13 February 2017 - 08:43 AM, said:

Another issue is the total cost of maxing out mechs getting higher makes it so that you will go longer between getting new mechs and this will make the game more boring. This will also mean that even new players will have less reason to spend money on mech packs or mech bays.

Only if you insist on mastering every 'mech one at a time.

Znail, on 13 February 2017 - 08:43 AM, said:

The short version is that I don't see any way for this to go live as is and if it does so will it cause a money crisis for the PGI.

We disagree.

[tokumboh]

Vidarion, on 10 February 2017 - 10:18 AM, said:

With respect to:


This is sort of the point of the skill tree. It's forcing variety into the game. The 'meta' is being changed. Right now, you grind away for XP and everyone is able to unlock Radar Dep and then it's a module to drop into the mech to get it. There's no impact to spending your XP on RD vs other things and so everyone basically runs the same module set and (to some extent) weapon loadout. The skill tree implementation changes that meta. People will be able to make choices that better reflect their play style (reduced heat gen, faster cooldown, reduced duration for vomit builds; etc). So yes, there are things that people will say "I want X but I don't want to spend all the points on Y and Z to get there".

And that's good.

Same with speed tweak. 'Everyone will need / want ST'. Yep. But do you really need it? Or is it just a 'oh, I need speed tweak to finish eliting the chassis'? Yeah, speed tweak is nice but right now it's just "because it's there to complete the Elite skills". Mechs run perfectly fine without it. It's not a game changer.

I think there is an inherent problem with the skill tree idea: Us the community !!!

I get that people think that the skill tree is implemented badly in part and I accept that the cost for people whom have huge numbers of mechs (i.e greater than 15 ) the costs of the new system far outweigh that of the old in terms of C bills, GXP and XP. However the aim of the PTS is two fold:

1. Increase TTK
2. Limit the choice you have to upskill (master ) your mech

What I have found is that the TTK has flown over almost everyone's head it is almost completely lost in the noise. This is by far the biggest gameplay change we have had. I am seeing that basically TTK is increasing between 10-30% which is a big change. I am not sure that they needed to implement this with the skill tree but damn it has made brawling more fun and the ability for us in Tier 5/4 to make mistakes and survive battles and contribute means more chance of improvement. it also means that brawlers can survive crossing the gap and getting into brawl range against ER-LL/PPC/Gauss metas ( I have seen some coordinated pushes just obliterated by long range hits firstly softening up short range mechs and then hitting them as they get into brawl range which kind of promotes passivity in Tier5/4 players since they get wrecked before contributing.


The idea that we have limited choice is something that is also rather lost on us I have found. If you run a Clan mech you that is mastered then you have 1 weapon slot 1 mech slot and one mech/weapon slot. basically running a build with LPL and ER-ML means that you have to make a choice do I run Radar dep and siesmic and have the hottest weapon cooldown or do I dispense with seismic and go with two weapon cooldowns. Now I think we make that choice subconsciously but not we are having to think about it explicitly and to be fair it is the first time in the game where you have to make a set of trade offs outside of building your mech. the changes are also much more subtle than previous for example you are talking 5% of heat reduction or 5% cooldown. which less than half of the 12% that we get now for cooldown it changes what we understand as the meta. And yes that means that some of these feature that we reach for as being absolutely necessary may now actually be nice to haves. If you had to make a choice between radar dep or cooldown it would be easy now it is across a range of issues. For example we think of UAV as a secondary item and yet now you can get 40% range enhancement and a good deal of duration enhancement. Now does that matter more than 7.5 speed tweak when you can run at over 120kph? That is a difficult question before we had everything given to us automatically and now we don't,

Simply we just can't have all the candy in the store now and yes in a way it sucks but.....as you say it is good

[Znail]

Hotthedd, on 13 February 2017 - 08:55 AM, said:

I believe the cost associated with mastering 'mechs has always been much too low. Making it cost more (in either time or money) forces people to either A) PLAY the game (which is good for PGI), or SPEND MONEY to reduce the grind (which is good for PGI)
Why you personalize the issue is beyond me.

That sounds like a win for you. I'm not seeing the problem. Other Pokemech players will still collect 'mechs.

You seem to think that I am the only one that likes to collect mechs and have lots of mechs already due to that. The game have been around for years, so if you like to collect mechs, then you will have lots of them by now.

Hotthedd, on 13 February 2017 - 08:55 AM, said:

You contradict yourself. It cannot both be cheaper to get a 'mech maxed out AND be more expensive to get it "good enough". Yes, you spend more c-bills per skill point, but you no longer need to buy 3 mechs (and upgrade them all).

You seem to have missed that the new system replaces both skills and modules. In the game right now so can you get mechs good enough by getting the skills. Even the basic skills are good enough to manage. Getting 3 mechs still gets you 3 mechs that can have diffrent loadouts.

Hotthedd, on 13 February 2017 - 08:55 AM, said:

Only if you insist on mastering every 'mech one at a time.

We disagree.

Do you enjoy to play with a handicap? I don't. I guess that makes us diffrent. It seems like you lack the imagination needed to undertstand how other players may think that doesn't play exactly the same as you do.

tokumboh, on 13 February 2017 - 08:59 AM, said:

1. Increase TTK

There may be some good things in this system. But as long as there are some very bad ones so will those need to be addressed before the minor advatanges will be noticed.

Edited by Znail, 13 February 2017 - 09:19 AM.

[Hotthedd]

Znail, on 13 February 2017 - 09:15 AM, said:

You seem to think that I am the only one that likes to collect mechs and have lots of mechs already due to that. The game have been around for years, so if you like to collect mechs, then you will have lots of them by now.

Why would I think that? Lots of people play Pokemech. They have been getting a fantastic deal for 4 years now.
You are entitled to buy as much as you want. You are NOT entitiled to mastering them all for next to nothing.

Znail, on 13 February 2017 - 09:15 AM, said:

You seem to have missed that the new system replaces both skills and modules. In the game right now so can you get mechs good enough by getting the skills. Even the basic skills are good enough to manage. Getting 3 mechs still gets you 3 mechs that can have diffrent loadouts.

I didn't miss it at all. As a metter of fact, YOU seem to miss the fact that you are getting a 100% refund on all of those modules. That SHOULD offset the C-bill cost of the new tree (unless you were being very cheap).

Znail, on 13 February 2017 - 09:15 AM, said:

Do you enjoy to play with a handicap? I don't. I guess that makes us diffrent. It seems like you lack the imagination needed to undertstand how other players may think that doesn't play exactly the same as you do.

Do you have to have every advantage to be competitive? I guess that makes us different. It seems you lack the imagination needed to understand how to do well without all of the bonuses.
As far as understanding how other players might think, it seems you are arguing in favor of your own personal preferences. I actually believe a diverse and expensive (in time OR money) skill tree that forces choices is infinitely better than a generic "Get ALL the buffs" simplified skill tree.

[Znail]

Hotthedd, on 13 February 2017 - 09:34 AM, said:

Why would I think that? Lots of people play Pokemech. They have been getting a fantastic deal for 4 years now.
You are entitled to buy as much as you want. You are NOT entitiled to mastering them all for next to nothing.

136k XP is not next to nothing.

Hotthedd, on 13 February 2017 - 09:34 AM, said:

I didn't miss it at all. As a metter of fact, YOU seem to miss the fact that you are getting a 100% refund on all of those modules. That SHOULD offset the C-bill cost of the new tree (unless you were being very cheap).

You can move around modules so there were no need to get complete sets of modules for every single mech you owned. The refund for modules doesn't come even close to covering the c-bills cost of the new tree. That is why I and anyone else who knew that you could swap modules won't have nearly enough c-bills to master the mechs we own.

Hotthedd, on 13 February 2017 - 09:34 AM, said:

Do you have to have every advantage to be competitive? I guess that makes us different. It seems you lack the imagination needed to understand how to do well without all of the bonuses.
As far as understanding how other players might think, it seems you are arguing in favor of your own personal preferences. I actually believe a diverse and expensive (in time OR money) skill tree that forces choices is infinitely better than a generic "Get ALL the buffs" simplified skill tree.

Do you think others at high tier game play or faction play wont have maxed out mechs? It's not about having an advantage, it's about being on even ground as the opposition. I noticed someone that looked a lot like you in another thread posting about players should have maxed out mechs to play without gimping their team.

Expensive and diverse have nothing to do with each other. The new tree may or may not increase diversity, but that has nothing to do with our discussion in this thread.

We both argue from our personal positions, The diffrence is that you want to make me stop playng the way I do because you think everyone should be like you, while I don't care about how you play. You also don't care about the economic impact this change will have on the game. I don't know if you are free to play and thinks anyone who spent money should suffer or something.

[Hotthedd]

Znail, on 13 February 2017 - 10:00 AM, said:

136k XP is not next to nothing.

Agreed. 136k XP is NOT next to nothing. The current system IS next to nothing.

Znail, on 13 February 2017 - 10:00 AM, said:

You can move around modules so there were no need to get complete sets of modules for every single mech you owned. The refund for modules doesn't come even close to covering the c-bills cost of the new tree. That is why I and anyone else who knew that you could swap modules won't have nearly enough c-bills to master the mechs we own.

Yes you could. If you were too cheap to buy more than 4 modules, you will not get as much money back. I see nothing wrong with that.

Znail, on 13 February 2017 - 10:00 AM, said:

Do you think others at high tier game play or faction play wont have maxed out mechs? It's not about having an advantage, it's about being on even ground as the opposition. I noticed someone that looked a lot like you in another thread posting about players should have maxed out mechs to play without gimping their team.

in FP, yes. To play the game, no. Are you saying that with all of your extensive 'mech collection that you will not be able to afford a maxed out drop deck? If so, it's a good thing PGI sells MC....

Znail, on 13 February 2017 - 10:00 AM, said:

Expensive and diverse have nothing to do with each other. The new tree may or may not increase diversity, but that has nothing to do with our discussion in this thread.

If the argument is about what is good for the game, it has EVERYTHING to do with the discussion. If you only want to argue about Pokemech, then it has little to do with the discussion.
I'm sorry if Pokemech will become more time-consuming for you.

Znail, on 13 February 2017 - 10:00 AM, said:

We both argue from our personal positions, The diffrence is that you want to make me stop playng the way I do because you think everyone should be like you, while I don't care about how you play. You also don't care about the economic impact this change will have on the game. I don't know if you are free to play and thinks anyone who spent money should suffer or something.

I couldn't care less about how you play. If collecting 'mechs makes you happy, by all means keep doing it. If it takes more time now, then suck it up, buttercup. YOU are the only one who can decide if you want to keep playing Pokemech or not.
I have already argued the reason that PGI will still have a viable economic paradigm. Shortening the grind and cosmetic items still costs money.
And if you think respeccing is suffering, I cannot help you.

[Schokoschnute]

I personally think, that there either should be less points to use, or you should invest way more in a skill tree branch if you want to master it.
That is, because I think, that the actual PTS skill tree allows you to make basicly a too well rounded mech.
It should either be (for example): skilled max on firepower and mobility OR defence, but not full of Firepower, buffed amor, max mobility and radar dep. etc.
The new skill system should force pilots to sepcialize their mech, that would bring in a whole lot more of diversity in the matches.
The way it is now in the PTS, there will soon be a meta skill tree choice wich will work perfectly on every mech and everybody, who wont use it, will be punished with a inferior performing mech.

[Summoner6]

Quite impressive this coming change the skill tree, its breaking the meta in all number of ways and I'm all for it. However the cost of C-bills for each skill node is quite large, 100k is what I often earn in battle at tier 3, maybe turn that to 50k per node and thus reduce the 9.1 mil expense to a more comfortable 4.55 mil to master a mech. Since what has been shown is likely final I suggest things in the future to further expand on this good base skill system -

1. - Adding player chosen improvements to each milestone of skill threshold.
2. - Adding skill thresholds (basic, Elite, Master) on individual skill trees.

Previously there was three stages of skills on any one mech - Those were Basic, Elite and Master. With the new changes there are no longer these stages and its instead 0-91 hard cap skill nodes. Thus there's no indication of skill progression on any one mech. A logical way to establish these thresholds is the following

91 / 3 = 30.3

So each threshold now becomes every 30 skill points, at which point you achieve this milestone on your mech you are prompted to choose a following unique skill point (USP) from the following trees that you have achieved skill thresholds in. These improvements are significant and a total of 3 will only be allowed on any one mech. The player can withhold their choice and purchase a USP point at any time.

For example - I have a Hunchback 4-G, upon using 30 skill points I have unlocked the stage of basic skill competence on my mech, which affords me a unique skill point allocation on my hunchback. In so doing I have invested in the Autocannon tree heavily and have reached elite status in using Autocannons which has unlocked both unique skill points, however I can only purchase the basic Autocannon unique skill point as I have only achieved this milestone. Furthermore USP's are progressive and the next unique skill point can only be purchased after the previous skill point in the same skill tree has been bought. These USP's will offer larger % increases to skills that will more become significant the further you specialise in a given skill tree.

This system will allow specialisation to be a important factor in considering your mechs skills. For instance an Atlas-DDC might want USP's in Defensive/Survival thus buffing its already considerable survivability offered by the tree, but forgoes USP's in other skill trees.

An example will be included for reference

These ideas will of course be subject to balance and testing and are by no means perfect, but moving forward the continued development of this new skill tree will be very interesting

http://i.imgur.com/A2ezTR2.png

[Chound]

Leomark Peanuts, on 13 February 2017 - 08:17 PM, said:

So each threshold now becomes every 30 skill points, at which point you achieve this milestone on your mech you are prompted to choose a following unique skill point (USP) from the following trees that you have achieved skill thresholds in. These improvements are significant and a total of 3 will only be allowed on any one mech. The player can withhold their choice and purchase a USP point at any time.

you are forgetting one important thing There is still the tieer system so the objective would be to climb up the tier system and the mech is just a tool to reach that goal. The player will still need to earn the XP to obtain the nodes. As a new player that can be very hard to do. the XP and GXP should be consolidated into only one type of "experince point" Each node is one skill point. possiblly an either or system where a general node for each weapon type balistic, energy, and missle for maybe 1% then the individual weapons

[Chound]

Quote

not alll the T1 T2 guys would want the speed twqeak depending on the mech. brawlers are for o-10 ft away. They would need cool downs and reduced heat generation. a sniper would want long range quirks. I know alll my mechs will have advanced zoom. only problemis I don't have that much room for weapon skills like range velocity and cooldown.

That's just the point. you would select the skills. If you don't want a speed tweek or radar derp because you're a brawler you don't get them you use that for an armor or a SPL tweek. There is no restriction that you only use XP for mechs skills and GXP for pilot tweeks you have skill points SP that you use to get a skill. the nodes would be purchased with either XP or GXP one of them should be phased out in phase two which would be done in another patch They should have the nodes purchased in Skill points 1 point per node and each skill point would be purchased using XP or GXP one of them should be phased out and only one type of xp used. The tree would look like the existing skills system but you don't need to get every item just the ones you want at the level you want. If you want a level 5 armor hardening tweek, level 3 fall damage tweek level 4 improved gyros no hill climb tweek that's what you buy and the mech would still be mastered after 91 skills are purchased. I'd like to see 100 mysellf. jump jet, uav, narc and tag enhancements available but not putchased. is a mastered mech. I don't know how many nodes there are available in this system but If we can have more nodes to select we can a mastered mech would be 9o nodes but you can still go above that. this way you can completely skill the weapons you use. or catagory you use there should be a node for the catagory's that will help the new players. PGI can offer SP as an early adopter reward"

Edited by Chound, 14 February 2017 - 02:02 AM.

[shameless]

what needs to be done is all the quirk changes they rolled out with this pts session need to be rolled back.

[Mochyn Pupur]

Can see the PGI statement already . . . "Working as intended"

[DjPush]

I agree with a lot of this. Bishop Steiner created a really good analysis of the skill trees. More time needs to be spent creating specific skill sets for each chassis (variants of that chassis can pick other options specific to their load out).

[Knighthawk26]

No one seems to get the point I was trying to make. I have 40 Elite/Mastered mechs that took a lot of my time and money to get to that level. With the new system I will only get enough refund to get 19 mechs up to the same level. That is a big net loss. If PGI insists on punishing its loyal customers they will lose a significant number of said customers. Bad for PGI, bad for MWO, bad for all of us.

If they cut the c-bill cost to 50,000 per skill, I would basically break even, and so would most players who bought a reasonable number of modules (equals refund).

[Knighthawk26]

And before anyone says it. I was not being cheap on modules. I spent 177 million c-bills on them.