55 replies to this topic

[Clownwarlord]

Either way direct from Russ, "You will have to chip away at each other more."

So with that doesn't that mean mix builds will be BETTER? With a variety or ranged weapons allows you to chip more often right? Wouldn't it be more impressive game play? #impressive

[Chemie]

instead of ghost heat, which put a penalty on firing a lot of same weapons at same time, they will have ghost alpha hard locking number of same weapons which can be fired at same time. I think ghost alpha is worse.

Edited by Chemie, 27 February 2016 - 06:03 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

It sounds like it is less "firing over a certain number of weapons" and more "firing a salvo of X damage or more" that incurs either a heat penalty, cooldown penalty, both, or something altogether new. If that's the case, I... actually like it. It shifts things away from "boat as many lasers as you physically can" just due to the weight to damage efficiency. Taking one or two heavier weapon systems is less of a liability vs the (er) medium laser spam when you are limited by maximum unpunished damage per salvo.

It also means it is agnostic to laser boating, PPC + Gauss combination mechs, Gauss + lasers, etc. By capping the unpunished damage per X time potential (before hitting a penalty of some sort), it will force more group fire. It will also help save some mechs that can't carry many guns but can carry one or two big ones, or even promote those that can take larger numbers of weapons instead shaving their alphas down and loading up on more heat sinks to make things cooler.

If the Time To Kill is forcibly increased like this, you simply don't need over a certain amount of firepower, except, perhaps, for redundancy. Hell, it might even make bracket builds more enticing as a side effect.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 27 February 2016 - 06:40 AM.

[Beaching Betty]

Lets just hope this new whatever thing won't eff up the game

[Wintersdark]

While this thread is sure to go down in flames with alarmist fearmongering...

I'd imagine a cooldown linked system, where weapons suffer a longer cooldown based on strike damage over a certain threshold.

Could still peek-and-hammer if you want, but you'll be unable to fire again quickly. This would have a huge impact in brawls.

---

Regardless of the method (cooldown, heat, whatever) having it based on total damage being fired at once is a great way to have it controlled properly. One of Ghost Heat's most severe issues is how it completely ignores some weapon combinations that it aught to cover (given it's stated goal) while it punishes other builds that don't need punishing.

A system that simply scales off strike damage avoids that, and is very easily tunable: You adjust either the low damage threshold, or the penalty curve after the penalty is triggered. Weapon balance changes don't matter, which weapon is in which group doesn't matter, etc.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Maybe it will be "Reactor draw" like many have brought up in the past.

My guess is that unless they do something drastic, ERPPC/Gauss or some combination will still have some cheesy workaround.

If a 30-40 damage cap is their goal, I really hope they nail it in one go and not have workarounds which have to be baindaided over and over.

[627]

I bet they come up with a new overthought version that isn't clear to understand on the first sight.

There were so many good (and bad) ideas for a new heat system but I doubt they have the balls to change it fundamentally.

Edited by 627, 27 February 2016 - 10:45 AM.

[Queen of England]

There are already a decent number of top-tier mechs that never alpha strike (eg Stalker 4N), so a change to a different alpha strike limiter probably won't change too much about the core gameplay.

[Wintersdark]

Mister D, on 27 February 2016 - 07:59 AM, said:

Maybe it will be "Reactor draw" like many have brought up in the past.

My guess is that unless they do something drastic, ERPPC/Gauss or some combination will still have some cheesy workaround.

If a 30-40 damage cap is their goal, I really hope they nail it in one go and not have workarounds which have to be baindaided over and over.

If the just use strike damage to calculate it - not weapon combinations- then that should be automatic and not need bandaiding, just tuning.

Queen of England, on 27 February 2016 - 08:13 AM, said:

There are already a decent number of top-tier mechs that never alpha strike (eg Stalker 4N), so a change to a different alpha strike limiter probably won't change too much about the core gameplay.

The 4N would alpha strike if Ghost Heat was removed.

This won't substantially change a lot of things (that is, situations where ghost heat works), but the idea is to stop breaking builds that are not in fact problematic - ghost heat causes a lot of collateral damage.

[Pariah Devalis]

Wintersdark, on 27 February 2016 - 08:18 AM, said:

If the just use strike damage to calculate it - not weapon combinations- then that should be automatic and not need bandaiding, just tuning.


The 4N would alpha strike if Ghost Heat was removed.

This won't substantially change a lot of things (that is, situations where ghost heat works), but the idea is to stop breaking builds that are not in fact problematic - ghost heat causes a lot of collateral damage.

Things I am excited about include Novas that can actually use their lasers, the Super Nova being able to use an entire arm's worth of ERLLas without paying for it dearly, and the impact this will have on combination builds that circumvented ghost heat by mixing weapon systems.

[Queen of England]

I do find the general idea that 'mechs in BT don't alpha strike often to be kind of funny, though. In TT, a standard MWO laser vomit Timber Wolf with 2 LPL, 5 ERML, and 2 JJs can alpha strike every single round and never overheat: it generates 45 weapon heat and dissipates 46. It only starts to build up heat if it runs or jumps.

[Metus regem]

Mister D, on 27 February 2016 - 07:59 AM, said:

Maybe it will be "Reactor draw" like many have brought up in the past.

My guess is that unless they do something drastic, ERPPC/Gauss or some combination will still have some cheesy workaround.

If a 30-40 damage cap is their goal, I really hope they nail it in one go and not have workarounds which have to be baindaided over and over.

Well if they do a reactor draw, it will give added advantage to Autocannon/Missile heavy builds, as they would realistically require less energy than a laser/PPC/Gauss would, and I am okay with that. What I would do for a system is link the amount of capacity for normal energy draw to the size of the reactor, meaning bigger ening, more power to draw on.

[J0anna]

The irony of it all is that PGI created this "alpha-centric" game because they changed the basic balance mechanism in TT by allowing heat sinks to increase the heat scale. For those that might not be familiar w/TT, the heat scale was limited to 30, period. You had increasing penalties with higher heat. Finish a round @ 30 heat = dead mech. I wonder if they would ever try a limited heat scale on the test server.

Nonetheless, lets see how this new "Ghost Alpha" turns out. My fear is this will turn into a game where every just sets up an optimal "Ghost Alpha" build and 1 v 1's will take 45 minutes to finish, lets see if they increase the time for each battle too....

[Queen of England]

J0anna, on 27 February 2016 - 08:28 AM, said:

The irony of it all is that PGI created this "alpha-centric" game because they changed the basic balance mechanism in TT by allowing heat sinks to increase the heat scale. For those that might not be familiar w/TT, the heat scale was limited to 30, period. You had increasing penalties with higher heat. Finish a round @ 30 heat = dead mech. I wonder if they would ever try a limited heat scale on the test server.

Nonetheless, lets see how this new "Ghost Alpha" turns out. My fear is this will turn into a game where every just sets up an optimal "Ghost Alpha" build and 1 v 1's will take 45 minutes to finish, lets see if they increase the time for each battle too....

That's a wildly inaccurate way to depict the TT heat system. At the end of each round, you add up the heat you generated, the heat you carried over from the previous round, and subtract the heat you dissipate from that total. You then apply heat penalties based on the 30 points scale. You can generate far, far, more than 30 heat in a single round without suffering penalties.

[cazidin]

I sincerely hope it's not a reactor draw or lock on/delayed convergence mechanic. Perhaps... and this is a radical idea not seen since the original 1980 Battletech but... maybe, JUST MAYBE, they'll implement a functional heat scale. I believe in you, PGI, do NOT let me down!

Also lower heat capacity.

Edited by cazidin, 27 February 2016 - 08:48 AM.

[J0anna]

Queen of England, on 27 February 2016 - 08:43 AM, said:

That's a wildly inaccurate way to depict the TT heat system. At the end of each round, you add up the heat you generated, the heat you carried over from the previous round, and subtract the heat you dissipate from that total. You then apply heat penalties based on the 30 points scale. You can generate far, far, more than 30 heat in a single round without suffering penalties.

Hence the reason I stated "Finish a round @30 heat". I didn't feel it necessary to describe how heat works per round, since MWO isn't turn based. I started playing TT around 1987 or so (a bit before Crescent Hawks Inception, IIRC). Still have the game, all the maps, every book and quite a few (3 dozen or so) scenarios.

Fixed heat scale worked in previous games (though nothing is perfect) as a good way to limit alpha's and increase TTK. I think PGI is attempting to "recreate the wheel" once again, rather than take what has worked before and refine it to make it better in this game. Whatever, lets see what comes, Paul's track record isn't spectacular, but he has shown he isn't afraid to work, and he has surprised me (in a nice way) on some things....

[kapusta11]

J0anna, on 27 February 2016 - 08:28 AM, said:

The irony of it all is that PGI created this "alpha-centric" game because they changed the basic balance mechanism in TT by allowing heat sinks to increase the heat scale. For those that might not be familiar w/TT, the heat scale was limited to 30, period. You had increasing penalties with higher heat. Finish a round @ 30 heat = dead mech. I wonder if they would ever try a limited heat scale on the test server.

Nonetheless, lets see how this new "Ghost Alpha" turns out. My fear is this will turn into a game where every just sets up an optimal "Ghost Alpha" build and 1 v 1's will take 45 minutes to finish, lets see if they increase the time for each battle too....

Apparently, you know nothing about how heat system worked in TT.

[MrJeffers]

J0anna, on 27 February 2016 - 09:41 AM, said:

Hence the reason I stated "Finish a round @30 heat". I didn't feel it necessary to describe how heat works per round, since MWO isn't turn based. I started playing TT around 1987 or so (a bit before Crescent Hawks Inception, IIRC). Still have the game, all the maps, every book and quite a few (3 dozen or so) scenarios.

Fixed heat scale worked in previous games (though nothing is perfect) as a good way to limit alpha's and increase TTK. I think PGI is attempting to "recreate the wheel" once again, rather than take what has worked before and refine it to make it better in this game. Whatever, lets see what comes, Paul's track record isn't spectacular, but he has shown he isn't afraid to work, and he has surprised me (in a nice way) on some things....

And you mentioned exactly why MWO dissapation works like it does - it's not turn based. IN turn based you vent off your heat at the end of the round based on your heat sink capacity. The time element.
The way MWO heat dissipation works is *exactly* the same as TT but it's in real time not at a end turn instant vent. Heat sinks in TT do increase heat capacity, exactly like they to in MWO. It just doesn't look that way in TT because you only look at heat after 10 seconds of dissipation.

Example: TT Awesome 8Q with 28 single heat sinks.
It starts its turn stationary and fires all 3 of it's PPCs - 30 heat. Check heat scale on the 30 point scale now and this mech melts down, pilot is probably dead and it's out of the match. But that doesn't happen. At the end of the turn you dump 28 heat, and it's only at 2. So for 9 seconds it was at nuclear melt down on the game scale, but then in one phase it's all A-Okay and nothing even happened.
Now do the same thing in MWO and wait ten seconds before firing again.


The problem isn't the rising heat scale, it's the 4x firing rate and the lack of any heat penalties for sustained (over 10 seconds) high heat levels.

[Clownwarlord]

This is one of those topics that none of us will know what they plan on doing till they actually get numbers themselves and then publish them.

But till then, I have a question on a theory. If firing major groups of weapons causes loads of heat then firing a single item becomes more the norm right? If that is the case then builds that use a bunch of different weapons like many of the stock builds do (example Shadowhawk has like lrms, srms, lasers, and AC(s) on it). Would it not become a better mech in game because now you fire long range to chip at the enemy with lrms, shoot medium range with AC to chip at enemy, and then srm and lasers at close range to continue chipping. This is instead of alpha at what ever range you can and then as they get closer continue alpha ... but since they are trying to get rid of alpha warrior online; wouldn't mixed builds be better?

[J0anna]

MrJeffers, on 27 February 2016 - 09:55 AM, said:

And you mentioned exactly why MWO dissapation works like it does - it's not turn based. IN turn based you vent off your heat at the end of the round based on your heat sink capacity. The time element.
The way MWO heat dissipation works is *exactly* the same as TT but it's in real time not at a end turn instant vent. Heat sinks in TT do increase heat capacity, exactly like they to in MWO. It just doesn't look that way in TT because you only look at heat after 10 seconds of dissipation.

Example: TT Awesome 8Q with 28 single heat sinks.
It starts its turn stationary and fires all 3 of it's PPCs - 30 heat. Check heat scale on the 30 point scale now and this mech melts down, pilot is probably dead and it's out of the match. But that doesn't happen. At the end of the turn you dump 28 heat, and it's only at 2. So for 9 seconds it was at nuclear melt down on the game scale, but then in one phase it's all A-Okay and nothing even happened.
Now do the same thing in MWO and wait ten seconds before firing again.


The problem isn't the rising heat scale, it's the 4x firing rate and the lack of any heat penalties for sustained (over 10 seconds) high heat levels.

Lets see if I can explain this a bit better. You alpha fire your weapons in MWO and reach a certain heat level "X". Your heat sinks kick in and lower your heat to a certain level, call this "Y", you fire your weapons a second time, your heat is at level "X" + "Y", if this level is below your heat cap, you're fine to fire again. An IS mech with 15 double heat sinks has a heat cap of 63. As long as your current heat plus "X" (your alpha heat) is below 63, you can keep alphaing. Now fix the heat at 30, like TT. Your alpha heat had better be lower or you need a smaller alpha to keep firing. Thus the fixed heat scale in TT will help lower alpha and increase TTK even without adding in the heat effects (which I would like to see in some form).