10 replies to this topic

[Dodger79]

Dear PGI,

in my personal opinion the introduction of a skill tree is a good idea, but at the current iteration it is not very thought through as there is not enough diversification. Every Mech has 91 SP available, regardless of it's opportunities or "needs".

For example: a variant that is strictly about energy weapons without having access to JJ, ECM and other weapon systems than energy has the same amount of possible SP/nodes as a variant that strongly depends on a more mixed loadout and has additional skillable equipment (like JJ and ECM).

That leaves so called "Monobuilds" with a big advantage as they have a greater possibility to really max out it potential over more diverse builds.

So my suggestion would be to give every variant a lower base-number of SP (50 for example) and from there make the skill tree/available nodes more individual for every variant.
E.g.: add 20 additional SP for every usable weapon category but cut the number down by 1 for every available hardpoint of this category. Plus add extra SP for every skillable equipment the variant can carry, like +4 for ECM and + 8 for JJ. That way boating would not be the way to go and more diverse builds wouldn't be punished that hard. For example, a BL-6-KNT would get 12 additional SP (+20 base-SP for the available energy weapon category minus 8 SP for it's 8 energy hardpoints), while a Mech with a heavily mixed loadout like the SHD-2H would get 61 additional SP (plus 68 for 3 available weapon categories and JJ minus 7 for it's amount of hardpoints). This way the SHD would have less but more effective weapons than the pure energy boat and still be able to skill it's mobility. The numbers are purely made up by me to make an example and would need a more through out approach to get it done good in a balancing way. Further to that give additional SP for the role the variant has to fulfill, like +10 additional SP for sensors in light Mechs, +10 SP for Medium Mechs for mobility, +5 SP for firepower and +5 SP for defensive on Heavies and +5 for operations and +5 for defensive on Assaults.

These are only first thoughts based on first and little experience, but that could be a good way helping the skill tree to really diversify builds and roles.

In addition, a Mech without missile hardpoints shouldn't have to skill target decay in order to get the sensor upgrades he desires and no Mech without real arms (e.g. Stalker) should be forced to skill arm-movement-nodes in order to turn it's torso faster etc. So please take a closer look on which skills make sense on a variant and delete unneccessary/completely useless nodes from the skill tree for such variants.

Edited by Dodger79, 11 February 2017 - 02:13 AM.

[Fox2232]

Amount of SP has to stay same for everyone. It is about traveling through many nodes to get what you want.
Moment you greatly limit SP, everyone will stick to essentials only instead of picking optional things to accommodate their play style.

Secondly: Weapon Trees are not Generic Enough. There should be one Master Weapon Tree which will include things all weapons share. And then those current weapon trees can be considerably smaller and contain just properties unique to those weapons.
That way Weapon trees would end up having like 60 nodes total instead of 195.

[Dodger79]

Fox2232, on 11 February 2017 - 02:14 AM, said:

Amount of SP has to stay same for everyone. It is about traveling through many nodes to get what you want.
Moment you greatly limit SP, everyone will stick to essentials only instead of picking optional things to accommodate their play style.

Secondly: Weapon Trees are not Generic Enough. There should be one Master Weapon Tree which will include things all weapons share. And then those current weapon trees can be considerably smaller and contain just properties unique to those weapons.
That way Weapon trees would end up having like 60 nodes total instead of 195.

So a KDK-3 with boated UACs and nothing else should have the same amount of SP as a Victor that needs 3 different (skilled) weapon categories just to have sth that you might call an alpha strike plus it definitely needs the survival- and movement-skills in order to survive because it is nearly the same size? That sounds just wrong to me... While the KDK can highly specialize in UACs and then have plenty of SP left to make it perform better sensor-, operational- ind survival-wise, the Victor would need 60-70 SP for it's more diverse weaponry alone...

[Fox2232]

Dodger79, on 11 February 2017 - 02:19 AM, said:

So a KDK-3 with boated UACs and nothing else should have the same amount of SP as a Victor that needs 3 different (skilled) weapon categories just to have sth that you might call an alpha strike plus it definitely needs the survival- and movement-skills in order to survive because it is nearly the same size? That sounds just wrong to me... While the KDK can highly specialize in UACs and then have plenty of SP left to make it perform better sensor-, operational- ind survival-wise, the Victor would need 60-70 SP for it's more diverse weaponry alone...

Yes, Same number of SP. Because then people would start argument: But My mech has Jump Jets I want more SP to to pick Jump Jets nodes.
My mech has freely moving arms, I want more SP to put into Upper Torso nodes.

Your outcry with the weapons is not insufficient amount of SP, but bad Design of "Firepower" category which has 195 nodes out of total 338 nodes in all trees. 57.7% of all nodes are Weapon based nodes...

Moment PGI makes one Master Weapon Tree which will have nodes that benefit all weapon types (Like 30 nodes) and removes those shared nodes from all those current weapon trees... You'll have FIREPOWER category reduced to 60 nodes total.
- - - -
But truth is that current bonuses to weapons do not enforce boating, because those bonuses are so weak, that you have hard time noticing difference.
Spending all nodes in laser tree will give you 6% increased dps. 4th laser on mech instead of just 3 will increase your dps by 33% with no investment to tree.
And sadly, it generates 33% more heat, right? Well, since that 6% dps gain via Tree comes from rate of fire, it increases heat generation per second by same 6%.
- - - -
So, real solution is to have that "Shared Weapon Property" tree, and then Laser weapon tree can go with just cooling stuff. U-AC tree with reduced Jam chance, ...

Edited by Fox2232, 11 February 2017 - 02:57 AM.

[Dodger79]

Sorry, but the fact remains that a Mech with moveable arms, JJ and a diverse weapons loadout is in need of more SP to bei able to compete with a simple monobuild. Especially if this monobuild has been the best Mech ingame even without skills and the other one is mostly considered useless because of underperforming. There is no logical reason why a KDK 3 should habe the same amount of SP like a Victor, even with your proposed change to firepower-skills (which, i think, sound really great).

[Fox2232]

Dodger79, on 11 February 2017 - 06:24 AM, said:

Sorry, but the fact remains that a Mech with moveable arms, JJ and a diverse weapons loadout is in need of more SP to bei able to compete with a simple monobuild. Especially if this monobuild has been the best Mech ingame even without skills and the other one is mostly considered useless because of underperforming. There is no logical reason why a KDK 3 should habe the same amount of SP like a Victor, even with your proposed change to firepower-skills (which, i think, sound really great).

No, that's one of most irrational things, you can say.
Mech got arms capable of improved aiming, let's give him more SP to boost them or something else.
Oh, mech has JJ too? Well, JJ are not good enough advantage, lets give him more SP too.
Oh, My mech can Equip ECM and AMS, Give me 10 more points to boost their effects...

Where does this perversion of logic comes from?

[Illias Illtempered]

Fox2232, on 11 February 2017 - 07:01 AM, said:

No, that's one of most irrational things, you can say.
Mech got arms capable of improved aiming, let's give him more SP to boost them or something else.
Oh, mech has JJ too? Well, JJ are not good enough advantage, lets give him more SP too.
Oh, My mech can Equip ECM and AMS, Give me 10 more points to boost their effects...

Where does this perversion of logic comes from?

I completely agree with you on this. Similarly I don't see boating quite as problematic as others (in a 1 v 1 context) as boaters are limiting their own diversity and there are cases that can be a severe (even fatal) disadvantage.

[Dodger79]

Again, just look at a Victor and compare it to a KDK 3. You say that JJ alone are such a big advantage, but still the Victor gets it's bu*t handed to him by almost every Assault and most Heavies. To have a chance against those he needs all survivability and most mobility skills, then the mandatory sensor and operative skills. That does not leave much for offensive skills (if any at all), while a true monster like the KDK 3 has plenty of SP available (only 1 weapon category instead of the 3 of the Victor [of which he can't boat any], no SP needed for arms and JJ). So the already better Mech gets even better, while the mediocre ones and the real underperformers get even worse in comparison.

That is why i said the current iteration of the skill tree is too generic and we need a more individual approach for each variant.

Edited by Dodger79, 11 February 2017 - 07:27 AM.

[Fox2232]

Dodger79, on 11 February 2017 - 07:25 AM, said:

Again, just look at a Victor and compare it to a KDK 3. You say that JJ alone are such a big advantage, but still the Victor gets it's bu*t handed to him by almost every Assault and most Heavies. To have a chance against those he needs all survivability and most mobility skills, then the mandatory sensor and operative skills. That does not leave much for offensive skills (if any at all), while a true monster like the KDK 3 has plenty of SP available (only 1 weapon category instead of the 3 of the Victor [of which he can't boat any], no SP needed for arms and JJ). So the already better Mech gets even better, while the mediocre ones and the real underperformers get even worse in comparison.

That is why i said the current iteration of the skill tree is too generic and we need a more individual approach for each variant.

I know, I know. Continue. But 1st do your homework. Do the math.
Then you'll turn around 180° and apologize for making this thread. Some IS players already explained how much nodes boosting IS weapons more than Clan weapons hurt choice. And you want to deepen this.
Your attempt to boost IS this way will boost IS, but at cost if even more reduced diversity/choice.

Right way is to make Skilltrees same for IS and Clan. And balance basis which tree boosts = weapons and mechs themselves.
- - - -
But at the end of the day. None of the mechs should be equal. No two 100 ton mechs should be equal.

[Illias Illtempered]

Dodger79, on 11 February 2017 - 07:25 AM, said:

Again, just look at a Victor and compare it to a KDK 3. You say that JJ alone are such a big advantage, but still the Victor gets it's bu*t handed to him by almost every Assault and most Heavies. To have a chance against those he needs all survivability and most mobility skills, then the mandatory sensor and operative skills. That does not leave much for offensive skills (if any at all), while a true monster like the KDK 3 has plenty of SP available (only 1 weapon category instead of the 3 of the Victor [of which he can't boat any], no SP needed for arms and JJ). So the already better Mech gets even better, while the mediocre ones and the real underperformers get even worse in comparison.

That is why i said the current iteration of the skill tree is too generic and we need a more individual approach for each variant.

That gets more to the point that the SP for arms and JJ have to be advantageous enough for the cost to warrant the expense, and not simply the SP for arms and JJ have to be spent to even make them effective in the first place. I think that is more of a tuning issue than anything else. Arm benefits in movement and JJ are an advantage and not a penalty and they should feel like that.

[Dodger79]

Illias Illtempered, on 11 February 2017 - 07:40 AM, said:

That gets more to the point that the SP for arms and JJ have to be advantageous enough for the cost to warrant the expense, and not simply the SP for arms and JJ have to be spent to even make them effective in the first place. I think that is more of a tuning issue than anything else. Arm benefits in movement and JJ are an advantage and not a penalty and they should feel like that.

I have nearly maxed out upper mobility on my MAD IIC and still it feels a lot less agile and responsive then on my mastered variant on the live servers. And i maxed it completely on my YLW and still feels more like armlock on than for a greater field of fire. It seems like on the PTS the base stats are much worse so you have to max out mobility skills to get a feel near to a mastered Mech on the live servers.