105 replies to this topic

[Kargush]

Skill tree postponed.

Is this the new Energy Draw, postponed and postponed again, and then quietly dropped becaume someone came to their senses and realised they'd make a right mess of it?

[MechaBattler]

Energy draw and InfoTech never had a release date. But this is clearly intended to go live.

I honestly think this is more an attempt to raise TTK by reducing cooldown, reducing heat efficiencies, increasing armor, as well as mobility, than it is about customization. Also explains why weapon quirks were targeted for removal mostly. We've got potentially a host of new weapons that will probably lower TTK. And Energy Draw, their direct attempt to tighten acceptable alphas got blasted with forum diapers. So I'm really not surprised.

Though I still hope PGI will consider the many possibilities the skill trees can present.

[A21B]

PGI, your about to break the game with the new skill tree. i've played around with it, everyone is going to go for armor and structure, then radar dep. if your an assault mech,speed tweak. lights are hard enough to kill and you want to give them even more armor!? the wepon mods arent enough...5% laser heat reduction? not worth getting.
the way it is now is good except the skills arent chassis specific. just fix that.


theres also a difference between mech skill and pilot skill, now there seperate. with the new system there combined.

also the biggest flaw is the hero mechs. i have almost all the is heros and i bought them because of the ridiculous quirks...pay to play...now what happens? did i waste all that money for just a fancy paint job?

the way i see it a new player is going to quit after a few days of punishment. ive tried to get a few friends to play as it is and they quit after a few days.


i know someone worked hard over there developing this tree but that doesnt make it better then it is now.
please just scrap it and keep it simple.

[lazytopaz]

Greatly reduce the cost for speccing (or remove altoegether Cbill cost), same thing goes for XP.
Xp cost I'd make unlocking a node a one time cost (if cbill cost is left where it is - one time unlock no need to buy it over and over too). Afterwards you can spec in and out of a node how many times you wish, but first you need to unlock it. Later on if you want to change your build... then you can, but if you want to use a node that wasnt unlocked you have to unlock it first.
So afterwards you can go back to whatever was already unlocked at no cost.

Skill tree in it's current form as seen by experienced players :
Spec in Infotech, Heat management, Speed Tweak, and whatever you think your mech is lacking most (upper torso or defensive) - you'll only spec with weapon if you can boat it or you consider one of it as your primary.
Very few people will ever spec in things like auxiliary (NARCers for sure... but UAV's? gimme a break) or jump jets... +5% total jump jet boost here, +5% total jj vent there,...
+5% bonuses are .... laughable. And it's not a funny, positive from the belly laughter. No, it's a serial killer laughing, through his teeth with a slasher smile.

Mechs that sport multitude of different weapon types are basically screwed.
Boating is favoured heavily.

New players don't have the luxury of having a nice fat pillow full of CBills (like most vets do).
Another thing that new players don't have is the knowledge what works best, how things work toegether and how it will work in real engagement. That's why that particular group of player base needs special catering IMO. If you want your community to grow.. at all.

So yeah if you want to introduce those costs (like 9 mil cbill to fully spec a mech... god forbid you have second thoughts/doubts afterwards) just disable new account creation. What's the point having a mech bay (as a feature!) when you cannot use it at all if you've just created the account and TBH you won't be using it much for at least couple of days (if not weeks) if you are a casual player.
Adding speccing cost it's like digging a deeper hole in a deep chasm that already exists.

There's already a huge cbill sink in form of engines and bigger weapon systems, not to mention mechs themselves (which are obscenely expensive in some cases like all IS assaults and all heavies/assaults in Clan) - WE DON'T NEED ANY MORE CBILL SINKS.

Ammo Bonus skill node. One of very few sparks of intelligent thought this company has presented in past few months.
Awesome Idea why not expand on it? Add few more branches coming out of it for additional boosts (and increased cost) to further improve the skill.

I wish I could put even more points into the speed tweak tree to boost further my increased speed - for increased skill point cost ofc.
I wish I could put more points into armour (in same manner as above mentioned) to try and build super tanky mech that focuses 60 points just in armor if I so desire. WITH MEANINGFUL BONUSES THAT ARE BIGGER THAN TOTAL 5% to goddamn flashy paint and big junk in the trunk or some other bull$hit.

Apart from that we need more of that kind unique skill nodes to direct our builds towards like Ammo increaser.

You promised to incorporate mechs quirks into the skill tree. So for example CN9-D won't feel like it was ninja-nerfed over night (on PTS at very least) with it's previously awesome LBx10 rate of fire... which is totally gone in PTS. No matter how many points you put into LBX skill tree.
I remember Russ saying something like (paraphrase) : "oh I love to play my Dragon so skill trees will care to those mechs that need quirks to work". Didn't quite work out eh?

I guess after skill tree introduction I'll be either shelving CN9-D to gather dust or selling it altoegether bcs what made him totally different and unique from every other mech out there... will be gone. No fun allowed I guess right?

P.S. yes this post was rewritten couple 'o times already. It was whole lot angrier in the beginning.

Edited by lazytopaz, 15 February 2017 - 01:33 AM.

[Thistles]

Kojak Bear, on 10 February 2017 - 07:54 PM, said:

Here's a long,detailed list of my recommendations on the Skill Tree System. Please read, share and feedback. Thanks.

https://drive.google...N3NUMEx2MmhUNE0

One other note: PGI should give us the option to pay a one-time fee of XXXX C-Bills (maybe 4 million?) and YYYY XP (20,000?) or even the equivalent MC's (maybe 100? 200?), after which we get to enjoy UNLIMITED FREE re-specs. That way, the grind is more feasible and we get all customization opportunities after hurdling the pay wall. This will also encourage people to buy premium time to grind out the C-Bills/XP for the goal of free re-specs.

My thought on your list for what they are worth: I like the rational you've added in streaming skills, even leaving speed tweek later in the mix i.e. after Acc/Decel given it was an elite skill after basic etc. However, the one pilot skill that I still think needs to have at least one element immediately accessible is Radar Dep. Although you have split the skill, which is good, both have been placed down the tree after multiple target info's. I got so sick of being LRM'd to death in the beginning almost to the point of quitting. Yes, its currently high XP and cost for the stand alone skill, but its independent of others. A small element at the start of the tree would be a good incentive to stick things out until you can learn better techniques/tactics. LRMS will still remain a challenge rather than a show stopper .

[Shino Tenshi]

Not sure if this has already been caught or not, but there's an error in text of Torso Pitch 5. I made my note a few days ago so I can't remember exactly, but I think it might say it adjusts the Arm Pitch in the text. Something along those lines anyway.

[KAURBHAK]

Hello all.
Dear PGI,
I'm coming from Elite dangerous, which is quite similar in the spirit, and I've given up this game from one day to the next and never came back to it for one main reason :
you grind to get to a certain level of competitivity for your builds, establish associated team strategy, then all the rules change and all the effort and time you put in getting where you are is just swept away, your builds and established strategies become useless, and you have to spend yet more cycles just to get where you were before and start having fun again. Things get more and more complex making the grinding unbearable for new players as well.
Elite dangerous does have an offline mode though, so if you don't want to get ripped up from the start you can always go offline ...
I am interested in online play, I was part of a quite famous PVP group and had a very nice time, then they (the dev's) made changes that brough the already fastidious grinding and complexity to an unbearable level.

How do you think newer players will react when more and more grinding is required, things get more and more complex, and the efforts made are scrapped in one update ?
Radical changes in that area is a risky bet for the future of the game IMHO. The current system seems quite good to me as is. I don't say nothing could change, don't get me wrong, but changes in that area should be made with extreme caution and thought.
Maybe concentrate efforts on providing new maps and new game modes and their tweaking/balancing adjustments would be a better idea than reworking from scratch the base rules and in the end would make the game more attractive, both for new and more experiences players.

Customizing your mech is just a little part of the fun, for me the most part of the fun is on the battlefield, increasing necessary grind and complexity to get a proper mech may satisfy more experienced players, but the noob will just get discouraged after a very short while, and not everybody can play 12 hours a day to stay in the race.

To me this game seems to go towards just a mech building and testing game, and I'm starting to get bored of this.

Anyways, I am not going to grind one more minute to get what I already have to the level it was before the update.
I was also thinking of starting to buy a mech with real money, but now ...

For what it is, I would seriously question myself on my decisions if my activity curves looked like this :
http://steamcharts.com/app/342200#All

Not sure this is reflecting the reality as is just the steam charts, and you have all the data to start thinking about it if there is anything to worry about.

I love this game (as I loved Elite), and I don't post or complain a lot usually, but I'm not interested in a game where the rules change all the time and the efforts and especially the time I spent getting where I am can be wiped away from one day to the next.

This is just my feelings and impressions, maybe I'm completely wrong and just don't get it, in which case sorry for waisting your time.

[The Lighthouse]

Beta ver, on 15 February 2017 - 02:55 AM, said:

For what it is, I would seriously question myself on my decisions if my activity curves looked like this :
http://steamcharts.com/app/342200#All

Oh damn, this game is indeed losing players. While Steamchart does not tell you the total player population (since this game has separate game launcher) you can tell the trend: whether the game is gaining population or not.

It seems the game is NOT gaining population, steadly losing it.

[NidAlak]

TL;DR version for those not wanting to read my wall o' text: Game is already grindy, don't make that worse (and I've dumped money to save time and still say that). And respec should be free.
---
Main thing from me is to agree that, even ignoring much of the other imbalances, at the very least the costs need to go down, and the cost should be an "unlock", either have us unlock a node, and then we can put a point in and out of that node as desired, OR, have us pay to gain each skillpoint, but then that skillpoint can be put anywhere we want (within the requirements of having the previous nodes of course) and moved freely.

It should not cost over 9 mil per single chassis, (I enjoy having 3 variants with diverse builds and this would murder me) and respeccing should be more or less free. If things DO still cost cbills for skilling, it should cost at most around 1/4 or 1/3 of what you should make with the equivalent amount of exp. Example (purely example numbers), it costs 1500XP per node, in typical matches I get 1500XP, I should earn say 200K cbills, so it should cost at most around 50K cbills for that node, so I still have a net gain of 150K to spend on other stuff while getting my node. (plenty of cbill sinks anyway, even taking out modules, 5 mil per larger XL, 3.5-4 mil per smaller XL, some weapons are 400-900K each for clan tech, DHS/endo/artemis upgrades, new mechs themselves...)

I mean hell, I have about 62 mechs myself, scanned my mech stats, probly around 110 or so hours playtime now, and most of those I bought with packs, yet even with premium time I'm actively ignoring half my mechs because I can't afford outfitting them, so I have to focus on a couple chassis at a time for working on mastering them and spending as little as possible, by the time I finish one set I MIGHT be able to afford outfitting another set of 3 variants for another chassis if I'm lucky... and some of my favorite mechs I have "special" versions of, so running those I make 80% more cbills over "free" players, and it's still a grind now. I might have more freetime than people with more demanding jobs, but it's still limited, especially adding in doing stuff with the family, other games, other hobbies in general, enough said.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Current system requires 6 million CBills just to get just a weapon cooldown and a range boost, and 3 million more can buy you just a low-value mech module.

New system for 9 million gets you more for your money - anyone who looks at the Infotech tree for 2.2 million CBills will see that it gets you ~30 million CBills worth of module-skills). And you don't have to spend MC to convert XP to GXP or grind for infinity to get the GXP needed for module unlocks.

The new system is cheaper in terms of Cbills to kit a single Mech and requires no GXP.

The reasons people are complaining about cbill cost is the fact that there will be no "module swapping" to save money, and the required Mech XP is higher in light of the lack of a GXP grind requirement.

So, we will have a system that substitutes the grind previously associated with buying modules and gaining GXP with a little more grind for Mech XP (no Cbill cost increase per mech if you exclude the process of module swapping). Seeing that this is a F2P game, this new skill tree is better for free players (it takes FOREVER to grind GXP without using MC conversions).

Overall this system is better for free players and it gives new players a BETTER standing since they can get full power from a single Mech (no rule of 3 to slow their progress down). Experienced players will now have a reason to bring their dusty Mechs out of the hangar since you can customize them... And there is one thing that too many people are ignoring:

You are not getting nerfed any harder than your opponents. When you see a reduction in total skill power, that applies to your opponents, too. Nobody is "worse off" with the new system because it affects everybody and nobody will have better Mechs than you after the 91 points are spent, regardless if there is less overall boosting happening on the field.

I like the new system, and if they buff the JJ tree and add a few more cross-conections in, it will be awesome.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 15 February 2017 - 09:23 AM.

[Chound]

Sky Hawk, on 10 February 2017 - 05:04 PM, said:

I'm 100% for the more testing... It's to big stuff for rushing it... But... I am a bit curious.. usually the monthly MWO paches are hard locked in the last 2-3 weeks... Can you even manage a solid new patch in the next 10 days?..

This is a patch. There are bug fixes and other issues that need to be fixed and the skill tree updated. even with the skill tree update gone, unfortuantely there are still things to fix. You should look at your Windows update llog and see how many changes microsoft makes to Windows. Every month.

[Chound]

Shino Tenshi, on 14 February 2017 - 10:10 PM, said:

Not sure if this has already been caught or not, but there's an error in text of Torso Pitch 5. I made my note a few days ago so I can't remember exactly, but I think it might say it adjusts the Arm Pitch in the text. Something along those lines anyway.

I don't think it's a mistake it's PGI throwing the kitchen sink in. pitch is up and down movement so that would be how fast you arms move up and down. With arms unlocked they can move iindependant of the torso. yaw is left and right. it sounds like it might increase the range of movement.

[SuperFunkTron]

Is there a target date for the PTS phase 2?

[Kojak Bear]

Rampage, on 13 February 2017 - 11:28 AM, said:

I was also contemplating writing up a proposal for Elite (or Master Skills as you call them). My idea would be to reduce the effectiveness of individual skill nodes such as Velocity, Speed Tweak, Turning Speed, Armor, Structure, Jam Reduction, Radar Deprivation, Seismic Sensor or some of the other most desirable attributes by as much as half their currently proposed value and then create an Elite skill at the bottom of the skill tree that gives a significant boost to one individual skill. However, each Mech could utilize only one or at the most two Elite Skills in its build.

As it stands right now, almost any Mech can get nearly all the desirable skill quirks with the 91 SP that it is allotted. There is not much specialization and there are not many hard choices being made. By limiting the selection of Elite skills that a player is allowed to use, it forces the player to make a conscious choice and chose the big boost that would benefit his intended role or suit his style of play the most.

The cost of the individual nodes needs to be lowered for both XP and C-Bills but the Elite Skill nodes would be multiple times more expensive than the standard skill nodes.

That is also a viable suggestion. I think the overall concern really is that the current iteration of the skill tree favors boating too heavily, and that there are "must have" skills than will really destroy the supposed "diversity" the PGI seems to want to promote. Whatever changes they implement, I really hope they listen to the community (although Uncle Russ has a really bad history with "listening").

Lung Butter, on 14 February 2017 - 10:23 AM, said:

I like this. PGI should definitely take a look at it.

Thank you for your kind words. I really hope they listen to our suggestions

Gorze, on 14 February 2017 - 07:39 PM, said:

My thought on your list for what they are worth: I like the rational you've added in streaming skills, even leaving speed tweek later in the mix i.e. after Acc/Decel given it was an elite skill after basic etc. However, the one pilot skill that I still think needs to have at least one element immediately accessible is Radar Dep. Although you have split the skill, which is good, both have been placed down the tree after multiple target info's. I got so sick of being LRM'd to death in the beginning almost to the point of quitting. Yes, its currently high XP and cost for the stand alone skill, but its independent of others. A small element at the start of the tree would be a good incentive to stick things out until you can learn better techniques/tactics. LRMS will still remain a challenge rather than a show stopper .

In terms of cost, I think the pre-requisites for Radar Dep 1 is not that prohibitive. (80,000 C-bills and 3,000 xp can be easily obtained in 1 match if you're very lucky; for a newer player probably around 3-5 matches). And I completely sympathize with you being so sick of LRMageddon (even when I was new to the game, I probably had a very similar experience) but I think that avoiding LRMs is a fundamental skill that new players need to learn early on to become better. My thought process of placing Radar Dep 1 in its place was as a "reward" to new players finally learning how to (kind of) avoid LRMs.

And I've had some matches wherein I totally forgot to place modules to a mech I was taking out, but I still did relatively well. IMHO, Radar Dep (and by extension, Seismic Sensor) should not be a crutch upon which players should rely on to replace basic MWO piloting and tactical skills.

Once again, thank you for all the shares and feedback! Let's all continue to let PGI kno how they can improve the Skill Tree System.

[Chris Puetz]

What's up with differnt costs for the node-points?
So there we had "Basic-Skills, with low cost (ex. 50 000C-Biĺls, 500XP).
Then "Elite-Skills, with normal cost ( ex. 75 000C-Bills, 750XP).
And at least "Master-Skills, with high cost ( ex. 125 000C-Bills, 1500XP).

With that there is a possibility to make things like RadarDerp expensiv and rare again but other things
like Coolrun cheap.

The other thing that I thought is,
there were (by the most nodetyps (ex. Sensor Range) 5 possibilitys to level them up.
Make it like that they were after 3 levels like it is now in the best state, and the rest to make it better.
I think most of us want there Mech in the same state befor the reskill with the new SkillTree.
If there is the possibility to make them better, we would do some nodes replace, to level a new way.

Sorry, there are so many things ant thoughts running in my head about the new SkillTree,
I can't take them in words ( better say english words ).
I don't want to use Google-translate, cause that is a little bit ...........!

[Ayrmoon]

Sorry if this has been mentioned already...

Two comments concerning node tree possession/purchase/movement through the node groups.

1 – Some nodes, even though it shows a connection, will not travel up and to the left (UL) and/or up and to the right (UR). Here are the line connections that I found that will not let you move UL or UR:

Node group - description
Mech Op – Cool Run 5 UR to Spd Retention 3, Spd Retention 2 UL to Cool Run 2
Lower Chassis – Spd Tweak 5 UR to Spd Tweak 4
Upper Chassis - Torso Yaw 5 to UR node?
Sensors – Tgt Decay 4 UL to Sensor Rng 4 or UR to Sensor Rng 5
Laser – Laser Cool 5 UL to Laser Heat 1
Pulse Laser – Pulse Laser Cool 5 UL to Pulse Laser Heat 1

These are the movement between nodes that I noticed to not work. But not having gone through all of the Node Groups, I’m sure that there may be more.


2 – The arrangement/order of the skill trees are set up in such a way as to make the player buy nodes that are not needed or wanted in order to get to those nodes that the player does want. There are 338 individual nodes (if I counted right) and the player can only buy 91 out of that 338. In the old method of buying modules, you could level that module (skill) 1 through 5. But now with the skill tree, you have to traverse and buy nodes that you don’t need or want to get to those you do AND you may not be able to level that skill to its max because of the limit of 91 nodes.

Example: In order to buy and have the full effect of the Radar Deprivation skill (module), you have to buy a total of 16 nodes to acquire the 5 skill levels for Radar Dep. That’s 11 nodes that a player may not need or want. Which is to say, that’s 1,100,000 C-Bills and 16,500 XP that a player didn’t want to waste!

Isn’t there a way to set this up so that there is less waste? The player will still not be able to level up every skill that he/she may want because of the 91 node limit. But couldn’t the trees be set up in a way where the player can traverse without having to go through so many other types of skils? Eleven unwanted nodes seems to be a bit excessive just to complete one skill.

Thank you for the consideration,
Ayrmoon

Edited by Ayrmoon, 17 February 2017 - 01:50 PM.

[Chound]

Ayrmoon, on 16 February 2017 - 07:22 PM, said:

Sorry if this has been mentioned already...

Two comments concerning node tree possession/purchase/movement through the node groups.

1 – Some nodes, even though it shows a connection, will not travel up and to the left (UL) and/or up and to the right (UR). Here are the line connections that I found that will not let you move UL or UR:

Node group - description
Mech Op – Cool Run 5 UR to Spd Retention 3, Spd Retention 2 UL to Cool Run 2
Lower Chassis – Spd Tweak 5 UR to Spd Tweak 4
Upper Chassis - Torso Yaw 5 to UR node?
Sensors – Tgt Decay 4 UL to Sensor Rng 4 or UR to Sensor Rng 5
Laser – Laser Cool 5 UL to Laser Heat 1
Pulse Laser – Pulse Laser Cool 5 UL to Pulse Laser Heat 1

These are the movement between nodes that I noticed to not work. But not having gone through all of the Node Groups, I’m sure that there may be more.


2 – The arrangement/order of the skill trees are step up in such a way as to make the player buy nodes that are not needed or wanted in order to get to those nodes that the player does want. There are 338 individual nodes (if I counted right) and the player can only buy 91 out of that 338. In the old method of buying modules, you could level that module (skill) 1 through 5. But now with the skill tree, you have to traverse and buy nodes that you don’t need or want to get to those you do AND you may not be able to level that skill to its max because of the limit of 91 nodes.

Example: In order to buy and have the full effect of the Radar Deprivation skill (module), you have to buy a total of 16 nodes to acquire the 5 skill levels for Radar Dep. That’s 11 nodes that a player may not need or want. Which is to say, that’s 1,100,000 C-Bills and 16,500 XP that a player didn’t want to waste!

Isn’t there a way to set this up so that there is less waste? The player will still not be able to level up every skill that he/she may want because of the 91 node limit. But couldn’t the trees be set up in a way where the player can traverse without having to go through so many other types of skils? Eleven unwanted nodes seems to be a bit excessive just to complete one skill.

Thank you for the consideration,
Ayrmoon

what color are the nodes. The only nodes you can buy are outlines in blue when you put the cursor on them, therewill be a line and show the cost in eitherXP or GXP to buy it. if they are not outlined in blue you have to buy the node ;connected to it so it will light up then you can buy it.. the nodes are going down not up

[Ayrmoon]

Chound,

"what color are the nodes" - Green
"the nodes are going down not up" - exactly my point ;-)

With the green nodes that I referenced above, there is a connection line that shows movement should be able to go up and left, or up and right.

For example: Lower Chassis – Spd Tweak 5 UR to Spd Tweak 4. Speed Tweak 5 is bought and goes green, Speed Tweak 4 (which is connected, movement to it is up and right) should turn blue as a possible buy choice.

There are other nodes (I don't remember which) that do have movement in an upward direction from the bought (green) nodes. (At least I believe I saw that happen? My point being, if not, they should)

If you are not allowed to buy in an upward direction, then my paragraph about buying excess/unneeded nodes just increased in it's estimation.



TO PGI:

If you will not/don't want to do a directional drop down line (straight 5 step line down from Spd Twk 1, Spd Twk 2, to Spd Twk 5, for example) for each of the skills/modules, could you at least group complimentary skills to flow through. The UAV skills are a good example of what I mean. Where UAV range and UAV duration ( I've forgotten which you have to go through to get to the other) are set up that you have to go through the one to get to the other BUT no other skills. Just those two complimentary skills. In other words, all of the node groups should be set up similar to the weapon node groups ;-)

Even if you were to put all of these skill in a more straight step down fashion, there is no way that a player can buy all the nodes. You have a limit of about 25% of the total possible nodes. Players will still have to pick and choose which ones they want for that Mech. While many other players will not want to spend 9,000,000 C-Bills on every Mech that they own. They may actually want to use those C-Bills to buy a second Mech?

I hope you see where I'm going with this remark. If you make this game overly difficult to purchase Mechs with C-Bills, you may crank up the frustration level so high, that many players may decide to leave the game! Who knows, there may actually be games out there that are FTP and give the player a sense of accomplishment and advancement. ;-)

(Sorry for the sarcastic tone that that last paragraph may hold. But I've seen it happen in other games.)


Thank you,
Ayrmoon

Edited by Ayrmoon, 17 February 2017 - 01:40 PM.

[Kurbeks]

So what exactly will be in Feb patch, besides Supernova?

[Tiantara]

- Hope I'll see some changes based on that suggestion I wrote here...
I think some of them can make better Skill Tree.