20 replies to this topic

[Nova Kitten]

So I got into this game only about two weeks ago (and have been enjoying it greatly ever since). I'm still trying to improve my sense of where I should be at any given time, how to properly use cover and how to best shoot while in motion, but I think I've been making some fair progress.

Yesterday though, while happily poking away at enemies, I suddenly hear some teammate who had died already comment in voice chat that "That Nova Kitten guy has no idea how to aim". Which somewhat confused me, since the last few of my shots had, I'm fairly sure, been on point for most if not all of the lasers' duration. Once I'd died myself, I asked him to explain why he felt that way, but he never did.

Now, I realize, it is going to be difficult for anyone who was not in that game to judge what that player might have meant, and it might just have been a sore loser venting his frustrations, but just in case he actually did have some valid point and there is a lesson for me to learn here, I would like to ask anyway: So is there more to aiming than, well, trying to hit your opponent?

I mean, obviously, going for important and/or already hurt parts of the enemy 'Mech - his head, his last leg, his almost dead center torso - would always be preferable if given the option, but at a distance of about 600 or 700 meters, with no lock on the target, I feel, just shooting (and hitting) the center of the enemy outline cannot be that poor a move, can it? Or should I actually be expected to reliably head shot the enemy at that distance, in order to qualify for "having an idea how to aim"? (Not being sarcastic here - I do know full well that some people are just plain amazing at shooters, and probably would consider anything less to be terrible - but do people really have such high standards here?)

Or are there some special aiming techniques that one should normally be using, so that even though one hit, it is possible to have been aiming the wrong way anyhow? (I'm fairly new to shooters in general, so I might be lacking some basic knowledge that people take for granted there)

One other thing that occurred to me is that, maybe, he didn't actually see the same thing I saw - I know that in some games, it is possible for lag and delay between players and server to create a difference in what happens on different people's screens, which often manifests itself specifically when somebody is spectating from somebody else's perspective - in Overwatch, for instance, death recaps often show one dying to something that, in the recap one sees, has clearly and obviously missed - because the recap is not actually accurate, and on the screen of the player that actually was a hit. Does MWO spectating suffer from similar issues, and was that player maybe just unaware of that?

(For the record, I ended up doing more damage than anyone else on my team that game. Which, granted, with 520 still was probably still pretty poor for a Timber Wolf, especially given that I did have 2 LRM 15+Artemis on board, but I'm pretty sure most of my damage came from my lasers anyway - and, it should indicate that I can't be that terrible in comparison to the people I get matched with, quiaff?)

[Edustaja]

Your aiming sounds pretty reasonable. 500 damage is nothing to scoff at so you're not totally wrong at least.
I would just check that you are familiar with arm lock settings and mouse sensitivity.

Arm locking makes aiming all of your arm and torso into one spot easier so it's recommended for that. Either using the toggle or the hold to lock buttons is fine.

Be sure to check your mouse sensitivity also. Most people run it ingame at about 0.1 to 0.2 which gives you more stable aim. There is more comprehensive guide to this, but it should give you some guideline.

Spectators have different ping to the server so they don't see correctly what you're actually hitting so that might also be something the guy complaining does not know about.

[Tahribator]

We can't really tell unless you provide some footage.

However when spectating due to latency some people seem to be aiming behind enemies whereas they're shooting perfectly center mass on their screen.

[B0oN]

Sounds like a classic case of viewer´s delayed view on your actions (if you die and spectate another dude on your team, the actions that are being watched are NOT SYNCHRONIZED to what the watched guys is actually doing), which prompted the guy to say you´re shooting is off .

But hitting a sidetorso out to 700meters IS pretty handy, so maybe keep fiddling a bit, Nova Kitten
Try out different mouse sensitivities (can your mousie switch DPI on the fly?) ... can help you further .

[Nova Kitten]

Alright, thanks, you all! So probably just desync'd perception on that guy's part - that's comforting, at least.

Edustaja, on 18 February 2017 - 04:57 AM, said:

I would just check that you are familiar with arm lock settings and mouse sensitivity.

Arm locking makes aiming all of your arm and torso into one spot easier so it's recommended for that. Either using the toggle or the hold to lock buttons is fine.

So, for clarification, having the box in the settings for "lock arms and torso" ticked, holding the toggle to move arms about freely only when, say, having to target some light 'Mech trying to circle me or such is what I want, right? That's what I've been doing thus far - or is there more to this?

Edustaja, on 18 February 2017 - 04:57 AM, said:

Be sure to check your mouse sensitivity also. Most people run it ingame at about 0.1 to 0.2 which gives you more stable aim. There is more comprehensive guide to this, but it should give you some guideline.

Huh... when I had it that low, I felt like my cursor would be so slow that I wouldn't be able to twist my torso at an acceptable rate (though I of course understand how it would help with fine aiming). But in that case, sounds like I should experiment with that setting more at the Academy!

B0oN, on 18 February 2017 - 05:02 AM, said:

But hitting a sidetorso out to 700meters IS pretty handy, so maybe keep fiddling a bit, Nova Kitten

I will, promised! Practicing every day I can manage.

[Tarl Cabot]

Quote

So, for clarification, having the box in the settings for "lock arms and torso" ticked, holding the toggle to move arms about freely only when, say, having to target some light 'Mech trying to circle me or such is what I want, right? That's what I've been doing thus far - or is there more to this?

There are two items for the Arm Lock release after doing the check box on the main setting page. One keystroke ARM LOCK, you have to hold down that button, or use the Toggle Arm lock, which does not have to be held down, just toggle on/off.

As for the sensitivity, it is also dependent on your mouse's DPI settings, and you want it set so when you do unlock your arms, the crosshairs are not all over the place. If you do not then when you do need to unlock your arms it will make it even more difficult. And if your mouse does have multiple DPI settings, use it to your advantage with the ingame sensitivity settings.

I have a unit player who sets his settings to high so he can twist as quickly as possible but at that speed it also means he is not able to unlock his arms a his cursor/crosshairs are all over the place. I have seen him die to lights because his arm mounted weapons could not fire on the lights due to high sensitivity. Each time it did take a single light 1-2 minutes to eventually kill him. If the light pilot had been aware of he was not unlocking his arms the fight would have been over more quickly.

[Natred]

Alot of aiming has to do with torso wsad movement as well. If its working for you keep doing it.

I turn in game sensativity to .20 500 polling rate 1000hz on my mouse. I noticed before with defualt setting my mouse was all wonky and super sensative jumping up and down way to much for my liking. Anyways this game has some trolls in lower tiers but seems to get better the higher tiered matches expcept for some outliers. Anyways keep it up and if you need some pointers or have any other questions i am welcome to help.

[Roughneck45]

Just make sure to read your target locks and try to hold your laser burns on the same location.

Nova Kitten, on 18 February 2017 - 08:33 AM, said:

So, for clarification, having the box in the settings for "lock arms and torso" ticked, holding the toggle to move arms about freely only when, say, having to target some light 'Mech trying to circle me or such is what I want, right? That's what I've been doing thus far - or is there more to this?

This probably comes down to preference, but I've always kept it the opposite. I think its better to have the arms unlocked for potential snapshots.

[Gibson Ibanez]

I would definitely recommend lowering the sensitivity. Even if you run arm lock.

When it comes to torso twisting you can think of it like slipping a punch in boxing. There is really not that much head movement required to slip a jab, for example. Even moving/twisting the torso a little helps spread the damage and will not throw off your counter shot/punch too badly.

Sometimes people just need a scapegoat/whipping boy for their own failures and pick on others to compensate. Ignore them, do NOT let them get in your head and ruin what appears to already be working for you.

[Exard3k]

Moving and shooting at the same time is a vital part to get a good mech pilot, keep practicing I recommend medium+heavy mechs for this. Mastering this on a 100+kph mech is a valuable trait.

Also you mentioned targeting special components....always lock your targets and check for enemy's target info in the upper right hand corner.

About aiming....as others have already told you...mouse sensitivity is important, get that slider to your personal sweet spot. And keep practicing with several weapon systems to get used to them and learn it's strengths and weaknesses at the same time. As different weapons have varying projectile velocity, it's hard to lead your targets properly in the beginning. You certainly will get better with it, especially with weapons you really like.

Don't get spoiled by LRMs. They may be powerful early on when you have troubles hitting enemies with other weapons, but don't stick to them too much.

500 damage is fine. If everyone in your team does 500, you're gonna win that game. And damage isn't damage. 100 damage from LRMs, spread across the enemy mech, is worth way less than say 100 focussed laser damage on a center torso. In the end, it's about killing mechs...and the most efficient way to do this is focussed damage to single components and/or weak spots.
Three mechs focus-firing lasers on a mechs CT will kill that mech before the LRMs of the three LRM-boats sitting in the back even arrive.

edit: Another hint...you can toggle arm lock on/off to get that extra bit of sensitivity when you need it to aim more precisely. Some players use this, most don't. Try it and decide for yourself.

Welcome to MWO!

Edited by Exard3k, 18 February 2017 - 10:46 AM.

[Skrapha]

I found that I aimed far better after I brought the sensitivity down. The stock setting is way to high, and it works better for me at 1/5th the amount that's stock.

Its easier to track the enemy and keep on a certain spot, allowing you to focus on damaged parts.

[Xaat Xuun]

Skrapha, on 18 February 2017 - 10:27 AM, said:

I found that I aimed far better after I brought the sensitivity down. The stock setting is way to high, and it works better for me at 1/5th the amount that's stock.

Its easier to track the enemy and keep on a certain spot, allowing you to focus on damaged parts.

one can also set the DPI on their mouse, if they can.
nice having a mouse that can have multiple dpi settings, and it's just a click to switch between them.
high sensitivity is great for torso twist but tough to aim
Low sensitivity great for aiming, but can be too slow for torso twisting

some mechs just have slow torso twist speeds, those mechs I run the higher DPI settings, always notice when I have to get the next mech, and aiming is all over the place, to switch back to first DPI setting.
just need to find that sweet spot, in sensitivity

Tahribator, on 18 February 2017 - 05:00 AM, said:

We can't really tell unless you provide some footage.

However when spectating due to latency some people seem to be aiming behind enemies whereas they're shooting perfectly center mass on their screen.

I'm pretty sure that's my cause, watching my shots go through the CT, and not seeing any damage, I kinda figured I must have some latency . . I wanna scream "HACK . . HACK".

I have spectated and see some players shoot way behind, I'm thinking, don't they see they need to lead more ? never really thought of it, I am seeing their latency, and that they're seeing hits, but are really missing,

[Horseman]

Nova Kitten, on 18 February 2017 - 08:33 AM, said:

holding the toggle to move arms about freely only when, say, having to target some light 'Mech trying to circle me or such is what I want, right?

No. You want to change the binding to the "Toggle Arm Lock" functionality (press to toggle) rather than "Arm Lock" (hold to toggle). One less button to hold in the heat of combat. For builds that mount their primary (in some cases, only) weapons in arms, you want it unlocked all the time. For builds that mount their main weapons in torso, you want it locked.

Quote

but at a distance of about 600 or 700 meters, with no lock on the target, I feel, just shooting (and hitting) the center of the enemy outline cannot be that poor a move, can it?

You're right, but you should avoid firing weapons at above optimum range (pay attention to indicators).

Quote

Or should I actually be expected to reliably head shot the enemy at that distance, in order to qualify for "having an idea how to aim"? (Not being sarcastic here - I do know full well that some people are just plain amazing at shooters, and probably would consider anything less to be terrible - but do people really have such high standards here?)

No.

Edited by Horseman, 18 February 2017 - 12:41 PM.

[Leone]

Nova Kitten, on 18 February 2017 - 04:16 AM, said:

So I got into this game only about two weeks ago (and have been enjoying it greatly ever since). I'm still trying to improve my sense of where I should be at any given time, how to properly use cover and how to best shoot while in motion, but I think I've been making some fair progress.

https://mwomercs.com...ting-thy-enemy/
I offer a tactical primer designed for Assault pilots, which must, as it pertains to assaults, go over positioning. I don't go over the finer details of the 'shoot, move torso sideways, shoot' tactic I use to stay on target, but I think it'll be showcased in there.

Edit: Yup, check out the first vid. The Banshee, whilst not perfectly accurate, manages to land most of it's hits by moving the mouse sideways when firing and turning the mech in-between shots.

Nova Kitten, on 18 February 2017 - 04:16 AM, said:

(For the record, I ended up doing more damage than anyone else on my team that game. Which, granted, with 520 still was probably still pretty poor for a Timber Wolf, especially given that I did have 2 LRM 15+Artemis on board, but I'm pretty sure most of my damage came from my lasers anyway - and, it should indicate that I can't be that terrible in comparison to the people I get matched with, quiaff?)

I love getting top damage, and don't get me wrong, it's a good thing to strive for. Thing is, rather'n comparing yourself to your team, I'd suggest aiming higher, and comparing yourself to both teams, to what you could be. When you can out damage the winning team on a loss, when you've managed to outdo not just eleven others, but twenty three? Then you know you've a decent build with some great tactics. Reach for the stars!

Nova Kitten, on 18 February 2017 - 08:33 AM, said:

So, for clarification, having the box in the settings for "lock arms and torso" ticked, holding the toggle to move arms about freely only when, say, having to target some light 'Mech trying to circle me or such is what I want, right? That's what I've been doing thus far - or is there more to this?

Oh there's so much more! Did you know, with free look on and your arms unlocked, you can leave your torso stationary and move your arms about? You can! It's an awesome way to get missiles to arc outta cover, or to shield a wounded torso whilst still using the arms. It's kinda rough to get the movement and aiming to work, best for the afore-mentioned missiling, but there's plenty of interesting stuff you can do.

Nova Kitten, on 18 February 2017 - 08:33 AM, said:

Huh... when I had it that low, I felt like my cursor would be so slow that I wouldn't be able to twist my torso at an acceptable rate (though I of course understand how it would help with fine aiming). But in that case, sounds like I should experiment with that setting more at the Academy!

I'd suggest it. That said, I use default mouse settings. I was really happy I didn't need to tune em up when I started this game. Now, I admit, my long range sniping does suffer. it's a pain trying to focus down uavs from range or leg a mech from afar, but I Brawl. I'm normally up front in the thick of it, where the faster response is better for me. And if I miss the occasional headshot cuz my sensitivity is too high? Well, it's a price I'm willing to accept.

~Leone

Edited by Leone, 18 February 2017 - 12:48 PM.

[Koniving]

I came on to check to see how my advice was received... only to discover I never sent it, so I am sending it now. Even though now there are a lot of replies when before there was only one. I apologize if you heard some of this advice already in the previous but much newer posts.

Nova Kitten, on 18 February 2017 - 04:16 AM, said:

So I got into this game only about two weeks ago (and have been enjoying it greatly ever since). I'm still trying to improve my sense of where I should be at any given time, how to properly use cover and how to best shoot while in motion, but I think I've been making some fair progress.


Yesterday though, while happily poking away at enemies, I suddenly hear some teammate who had died already comment in voice chat that "That Nova Kitten guy has no idea how to aim". Which somewhat confused me, since the last few of my shots had, I'm fairly sure, been on point for most if not all of the lasers' duration. Once I'd died myself, I asked him to explain why he felt that way, but he never did.


Now, I realize, it is going to be difficult for anyone who was not in that game to judge what that player might have meant, and it might just have been a sore loser venting his frustrations, but just in case he actually did have some valid point and there is a lesson for me to learn here, I would like to ask anyway: So is there more to aiming than, well, trying to hit your opponent?


I mean, obviously, going for important and/or already hurt parts of the enemy 'Mech - his head, his last leg, his almost dead center torso - would always be preferable if given the option, but at a distance of about 600 or 700 meters, with no lock on the target, I feel, just shooting (and hitting) the center of the enemy outline cannot be that poor a move, can it? Or should I actually be expected to reliably head shot the enemy at that distance, in order to qualify for "having an idea how to aim"? (Not being sarcastic here - I do know full well that some people are just plain amazing at shooters, and probably would consider anything less to be terrible - but do people really have such high standards here?)


Or are there some special aiming techniques that one should normally be using, so that even though one hit, it is possible to have been aiming the wrong way anyhow? (I'm fairly new to shooters in general, so I might be lacking some basic knowledge that people take for granted there)


One other thing that occurred to me is that, maybe, he didn't actually see the same thing I saw - I know that in some games, it is possible for lag and delay between players and server to create a difference in what happens on different people's screens, which often manifests itself specifically when somebody is spectating from somebody else's perspective - in Overwatch, for instance, death recaps often show one dying to something that, in the recap one sees, has clearly and obviously missed - because the recap is not actually accurate, and on the screen of the player that actually was a hit. Does MWO spectating suffer from similar issues, and was that player maybe just unaware of that?


(For the record, I ended up doing more damage than anyone else on my team that game. Which, granted, with 520 still was probably still pretty poor for a Timber Wolf, especially given that I did have 2 LRM 15+Artemis on board, but I'm pretty sure most of my damage came from my lasers anyway - and, it should indicate that I can't be that terrible in comparison to the people I get matched with, quiaff?)

For anyone wondering, the last italicized word is Clan speak for "Query Affirmative?" As in "Am I right?"

There are a few things to note in this game.

The Server is god, so to speak. It dictates where everyone is, when, etc.

There is a lag compensation system called Host State Rewind, which takes the locations and times of where 'Mechs (and obstacles) are and when you make the announcement that you are shooting, the game uses your ping to determine how much lag there was, where "you think" the mechs are based on that lag and then determines whether or not you hit the target.

Where I see an enemy, where you see an enemy, and where the enemy sees himself may not be in the same place at the same time.

Given the above, you may see that you are shooting the enemy.

The server dictates that you are shooting the enemy.

That player may see...that you are shooting the air behind the enemy instead, never hitting anything at all.

What matters isn't what the other player sees but what you see and whether or not you get the red hit indication. If you fail to get the hit indication, you are in fact not hitting anything.

----

This said, there are some aiming techniques and perhaps a bit of "firing decorum" to consider.

I will begin with the firing decorum.

On the bottom right of your HUD is your list of weapons.

Each one has a stated range in Meters.

Aim your reticle. Note what happens to the weapons list.

If the weapon is green, you will hit for full damage (provided you keep it on target for the entire duration of whatever the shot is, i.e. lasers.)

If the weapon is yellow, your damage will be sub-par, anything from 99% to 1% damage depending on how close to "2 times" the number it is (or 1.5 times the number if you're a Clanner).

If the weapon is black, you will deal 0 damage even with a direct hit... or the weapon is destroyed in which case you won't be firing at all.

If the area is narrow and crowded with allies forming around you, it is better to not fire than to risk killing your teammates; most mechs have very poor rear armor.

Don't shoot while too close to buildings, rocks or other obstacles. There's an issue with invisible walls for blocking shots (server side) being slightly larger than they should be. As such, you may literally just hit the walls and never even know it.

------

Techniques. You actually have two separate reticles, and can take control of them independently. This is rather advanced and honestly even many top tier players don't actually use this.

You will see examples of this here, here and here. This is simply 'using' the two crosshairs as they are without the arms being locked, which is the most basic form of this technique.
Note1: The mention of "premade" is from a time when up to 4 player groups could play in the standard queue. This changed some time ago.
Note2: The final kill in the third video is taking advantage of a pair of more advanced techniques called "predicting where your convergence is going to be" so you can shoot over there and hit the enemy over here... and the technique called "luck." Here it is with less luck and non-instant convergence. Edit: FORGOT LINK!

There are more advanced techniques. As stated you can take control of them independently. You can fire in two directions at once -- including the ability to fire LRMs in TWO DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS at TWO DIFFERENT TARGETS AT THE SAME TIME! Lets see Metamechs teach you how to do THAT! Ha! But it is more fun to discover awesome stuff like that than to simply 'know'.

But back to basic aiming.. This video I made ages ago is edited with two computer voice overs representing different things. One tells about combat situations and the other tells about the status of my mech. It also calls out when I aim and what I am aiming for, and whether or not I hit them. It also calls out when enemies appear to be focusing my limbs and what specifically they are aiming for. I also say what I'm doing, as far as switching to chain fire, overriding, etc.

While I'm aware I have left a great deal of information out in the name of letting you discover things on your own, I do hope that what I have provided will help you.

Welcome to MWO.

Edited by Koniving, 19 February 2017 - 03:12 PM.

[Nova Kitten]

Oh, wow... thanks so much, every single one of you.

I was going to multi-quote and respond to each of you one by one, but even without knowing the character limit on these specific forums I'm reasonably sure I would break that. But rest assured that I have taken in every bit of advice each of you has given me, and I will heed it well. Extra thanks to all those who took the time to compose long and elaborate explanations with a lot of detailed information - so much appreciated. And I have started watching the videos you have linked, those are proving to be quite educational as well.

I hope you will not me not responding to any one of you specifically as disrespectful or dismissive - frankly, it's mostly because your collective explanations have been exhaustive and well-written enough that I am left with no questions to ask (for now - I'm sure more will arise in time), so there is little I could write other than expressing my gratitude repeatedly.

May I just note that, out of all game communities that I have ever encountered, this one was the most welcoming by far? Like, not even a contest.

Thank you all, once more.

[Koniving]

There isn't a character limit. Could always 'snip' a quote too.

(Had to slip away because of baby.)
You're welcome.

Edited by Koniving, 19 February 2017 - 04:07 PM.

[Quintus Verus]

If you're having problems holding your shots on target, especially with Clan lasers, try lowering your mouse DPI to 450-500. This will help immensely.

[B0oN]

Spoiler

Nova Kitten, on 19 February 2017 - 03:00 PM, said:

Oh, wow... thanks so much, every single one of you.

I was going to multi-quote and respond to each of you one by one, but even without knowing the character limit on these specific forums I'm reasonably sure I would break that. But rest assured that I have taken in every bit of advice each of you has given me, and I will heed it well. Extra thanks to all those who took the time to compose long and elaborate explanations with a lot of detailed information - so much appreciated. And I have started watching the videos you have linked, those are proving to be quite educational as well.

I hope you will not me not responding to any one of you specifically as disrespectful or dismissive - frankly, it's mostly because your collective explanations have been exhaustive and well-written enough that I am left with no questions to ask (for now - I'm sure more will arise in time), so there is little I could write other than expressing my gratitude repeatedly.

May I just note that, out of all game communities that I have ever encountered, this one was the most welcoming by far? Like, not even a contest.

Thank you all, once more.

Don´t you dare thanking us for improving your gaming-experience ... we are bittervets and want to be seen as such

Also ...
OUR PLEASURE !

Now ...
go forth and produce mechscrap en massé !

Edited by B0oN, 19 February 2017 - 09:28 PM.

[PhoenixFire55]

First of all, while spectating it shows you a completely different story in terms of where shots are aimed compared to what a player himself sees. The only way to determine your accuracy is to watch the changes in the enemy mech paperdoll and judging the % of it that effectively hits where you want. Different latency playes a huge roll in proper aiming as well, small pings ~30ms allow you to aim where you intend to hit, larger pings >~150ms force you to compensate a lot, plus it depends not only on your ping but your opponents ping as well. So as long as you are certain that according to the enemy paperdoll you are hitting where you need to then just ingore whoever spectates you and comments on it while being completely ignorant himself.