10 replies to this topic

[Hit the Deck]

...is not taking any firepower related skills and put all of your points into the other trees (or vice versa).

Would there be any sane MechWarrior who does that? Do you have too many skill points for that to happen (too lazy to count)?

I also can't be bothered currently to download the PTS client to test it out myself so I'm just wondering. Perhaps it would be cool if that could be rewarded (not neccessarily with current offered nodes - they could add new or change the existing ones).

[Fox2232]

Yes, did that. Suggested that too. There are reasons.
Take Lasers:
C-ER large Laser: 11dmg; 3.25s cooldown + 1.5s duration => 4.75s
DPS = 11 / 4.75 = 2.316
Spending 10 SP on Cooldown and duration => -10% duration & -4% cooldown => 3.12s Cooldown + 1.35s duration => 4.47s
DPS = 11 / 4.47 = 2.461

So spending 10 points in laser tree with aim to increase dps gives: 2.461 / 2.316 = 6.26% increased dps
In other words average for those nodes is 0.626% dps boost per SP.
- That's bad, but there is another downside, since cooling seen hit you heat up faster.

So imagine spending 90 nodes for dps in this way => 56.34% bonus to dps and heat generation. Would not it be better to take 3rd laser and chain fire them?

Because spending 90 nodes in Defensive would give you +5% armor and +7% structure per node => +225% to armor and +315% to structure on light mech.
What that means?
Light mech with 210 Armor would now have => 210 * (1 + 2.25) = 682.5 Armor
Light mech with 114 Structure would now have => 114 * (1 + 3.15) = 473.1 Structure
= = = =
So is thing like laser cooldown worth points if you can achieve same by stacking additional weapon?
Definitelly not in comparison to Armor and Structure.

Sometimes it is quite needed to blow things out of proportion to allow mind which only knows how to work with full/large numbers catch up with scale of tiny numbers.

[Koshirou]

Fox2232, on 10 February 2017 - 08:23 AM, said:

Yes, did that. Suggested that too. There are reasons.
Take Lasers:
C-ER large Laser: 11dmg; 3.25s cooldown + 1.5s duration => 4.75s
DPS = 11 / 4.75 = 2.316
Spending 10 SP on Cooldown and duration => -10% duration & -4% cooldown => 3.12s Cooldown + 1.35s duration => 4.47s
DPS = 11 / 4.47 = 2.461

So spending 10 points in laser tree with aim to increase dps gives: 2.461 / 2.316 = 6.26% increased dps
In other words average for those nodes is 0.626% dps boost per SP.
- That's bad, but there is another downside, since cooling seen hit you heat up faster.

So imagine spending 90 nodes for dps in this way => 56.34% bonus to dps and heat generation. Would not it be better to take 3rd laser and chain fire them?

Because spending 90 nodes in Defensive would give you +5% armor and +7% structure per node => +225% to armor and +315% to structure on light mech.
What that means?
Light mech with 210 Armor would now have => 210 * (1 + 2.25) = 682.5 Armor
Light mech with 114 Structure would now have => 114 * (1 + 3.15) = 473.1 Structure
= = = =
So is thing like laser cooldown worth points if you can achieve same by stacking additional weapon?
Definitelly not in comparison to Armor and Structure.

Sometimes it is quite needed to blow things out of proportion to allow mind which only knows how to work with full/large numbers catch up with scale of tiny numbers.

Errr.. you can only take a node once. And there are 5 armor and structure nodes each.

[Skribs]

I put everything into heat, torso movement, defensives, and sensors on my Atlas 7S and it kills things just as fast, if not faster than on live in a run through the testing grounds, but yet feels more sluggish.

[Fox2232]

Koshirou, on 10 February 2017 - 08:25 AM, said:

Errr.. you can only take a node once. And there are 5 armor and structure nodes each.

Errr.. Did you read last sentence?

[Cy Mitchell]

I put SP in the weapon trees but it is almost the last thing I do.

My sequence:
Operations
Defense
Agility (lower)
InfoTech
Weapons
Agility (upper)

[Koshirou]

Fox2232, on 10 February 2017 - 08:31 AM, said:

Errr.. Did you read last sentence?

Yes, but it doesn't make any sense. The fact that you can only take a node once exists. An argument based on supposing that it doesn't exist does not lead us anywhere except to what everyone already knows: The defensive skills are no-brainers everyone right in their mind will always take.

[Hit the Deck]

It's interesting that you guys and maybe some others have tried this.

Keep it coming!

[Fox2232]

Koshirou, on 10 February 2017 - 02:49 PM, said:

Yes, but it doesn't make any sense. The fact that you can only take a node once exists. An argument based on supposing that it doesn't exist does not lead us anywhere except to what everyone already knows: The defensive skills are no-brainers everyone right in their mind will always take.

Numbers were increased by same multiplier in both compared sides of "equation/comparison" to allow people with bit worse imagination understand better.

So, comparing 0.625% dps boost per SP to 2.5% Armor and 3.5% Structure Per SP will result in same ratio as comparing 10SP investment into both groups.

It just shows that practical value of many weapon nodes is not that great, and one can live without them just fine.

Take it this way:
Two mechs of same Chassis decide to do Central torso duel with 2 ER LL:
1st picks 10 points into Cooldown and Duration of Laser
2nd invests into Armor and Structure
- - - -
1st now has 4.922 dps and 40 Armor + 20 Structure
2nd now has 4.632 dps and 50 Armor + 27 Structure
- - - -
It takes 10.16s for 1st mech to destroy Armor of 2nd mech.
It takes 8.64s for 2nd mech to destroy Armor of 1st mech.
- - - -
It takes 5.49s for 1st mech to destroy Structure of 2nd mech.
It takes 4.32s for 2nd mech to destroy Structure of 1st mech.
= = = =
Combat value of those dps nodes is so small that one can simply ignore many of them. Especially since Higher rate of fire comes at cost of generating heat more often.

It is not that Defensive skills are no-brainers. It is that there are many better alternatives to weapon nodes. Someone may think that picking 20 nodes from one weapon tree will encourage boating. And while player may incline to boat that kind of weapon, it actually makes his mech weaker than having same boat and picking other than weapon nodes.

If mech has good hardpoints for boating, why not? But I do not see weapon trees good enough to be feel pressure to boat.

Edited by Fox2232, 10 February 2017 - 03:25 PM.

[VitriolicViolet]

something you can only do on this system? make a ONI-IIC carry more armor than a ZEU-5S. With both mechs at max defensive the ONI ends up with 111 front armor (8 rear) and the ZEU 101 front armor (8 rear).

I dont think the Orion IIc heavy should be tankier than a Zeus assault, especially when it also hits harder and they both move at near the same speed (in the builds im using).

Another thing you can only do here is give a Highlander 150+ front armor.

[Cato Phoenix]

Fox2232, on 10 February 2017 - 03:24 PM, said:

Numbers were increased by same multiplier in both compared sides of "equation/comparison" to allow people with bit worse imagination understand better.

So, comparing 0.625% dps boost per SP to 2.5% Armor and 3.5% Structure Per SP will result in same ratio as comparing 10SP investment into both groups.

It just shows that practical value of many weapon nodes is not that great, and one can live without them just fine.

Take it this way:
Two mechs of same Chassis decide to do Central torso duel with 2 ER LL:
1st picks 10 points into Cooldown and Duration of Laser
2nd invests into Armor and Structure
- - - -
1st now has 4.922 dps and 40 Armor + 20 Structure
2nd now has 4.632 dps and 50 Armor + 27 Structure
- - - -
It takes 10.16s for 1st mech to destroy Armor of 2nd mech.
It takes 8.64s for 2nd mech to destroy Armor of 1st mech.
- - - -
It takes 5.49s for 1st mech to destroy Structure of 2nd mech.
It takes 4.32s for 2nd mech to destroy Structure of 1st mech.
= = = =
Combat value of those dps nodes is so small that one can simply ignore many of them. Especially since Higher rate of fire comes at cost of generating heat more often.

It is not that Defensive skills are no-brainers. It is that there are many better alternatives to weapon nodes. Someone may think that picking 20 nodes from one weapon tree will encourage boating. And while player may incline to boat that kind of weapon, it actually makes his mech weaker than having same boat and picking other than weapon nodes.

If mech has good hardpoints for boating, why not? But I do not see weapon trees good enough to be feel pressure to boat.

“Armour... is part of a state of mind... in which you admit the possibility... of being hit.”

- The Heroes