59 replies to this topic

[JudauAshta]

Clownwarlord, on 11 February 2017 - 06:26 PM, said:

The biggest issue I have is, we have the same broken pos skill tree in game right now that has been broken since game open beta launch (can tell you about alpha or closed beta because was not apart of). This new skill tree even though not perfect is a step in the right direction. Enough said, drop mic.


It isn't thrifty. Its being cheap with those Cbills.

As for the grind WOT is worse.

wot is also unbalanced nightmare crap
call mwo what you want but balance is here infinitely better

[Chuanhao]

Kdogg788, on 11 February 2017 - 11:22 PM, said:

Honestly a good proportion of my mechs were bought with dollar bills not cbills. Most all these mechs are mastered or close to it. I used my cbills to buy equipment like DHS, XL engines, weapons, etc. Over the course of my time in this game I leveled them all up. Now they want to remove all the XP from everything and force me to buy it all back with cbills. In what world does this make sense? I work two jobs and out in over 12 hours a day during the week now. I don't have time to make MWO another part time job. At the moment I can afford to fully spec out about 11 mechs or mostly skill up about 20... Of 110!

-k

Indeed. Moving ahead, removing the need for three variants is a good thing, but the issue is those that have already "mastered" their current mechs.

In this case, it's not the skill tree, but the transition plan for current players.

We the existing pool do have a double whammy. We already spent cash or cbills on three variants. We don't benefit from the removal of the "need for three". And yet we still have to invest more to now remaster mechs we already mastered.

As such, the current pool of mastered mechs should have any number of pre-existing slots pre assigned. For example, any mechs already mastered, which I think requires about 60k XP, should have pre existing 45 slots already in place for selection right from the bat.

The transition plan like refunds has been already mentioned. PGI needs to now put in the sweetners for the need to remaster. This is because the cost in both cash and time and cbills for the other two variants cannot be adequately refunded. So I think minimally give us sufficient slots equal to whatever state a mech is already subjected to old skill tree max, and that's that. Better than a flat XP refund, where we still have to spend cbills on. AGAIN!

Edited by Chuanhao, 12 February 2017 - 05:22 AM.

[WildeKarde]

If you own any collectors packs and have mastered the (S) variant the you currently have two mastered mechs you can vary the builds. But under the new system that is only 57K of XP you have or 38 nodes, it'll take an addition 215k of XP and 18.2m cbills to get the same two mastered mechs you currently have.

The new skill tree is a good idea but it has zero variety. A light and assault mech get the same weapon bonuses from the new tree no matter there perceived roles.
The tree should vary the skill based on the mech. Lights get more from movement and sensors for example, assaults more from weapons and armour. Mechs with advanced electronics get better InfoTech skills.

Also I think the xp cost should be lower maybe 1000xp per node would be better in particular if you are adding in a cbill cost.

[Whiskey Dharma]

I've already stepped away from the game. Playing now is a waste of time, since I don't know how to move forward.

If PGI does NOT implement the skill tree, then I need to buy more mechs so that I can master mechs I have (for example, I need a third Griffin).

If they DO go forward, I need to hoard money and sell mechs so that I have the money to upgrade the handful of remaining machines.

[Burke IV]

When i pointed out how badly some were gonna get shafted nobody wanted to talk about it. "the only fair way is an unlocked mech before the new tree should equal an unlocked mech after" i said. "we dont want any more grind" i said.

[Alan Davion]

xe N on, on 12 February 2017 - 03:35 AM, said:

In other word, PGI wants people to buy less mechs and concentrate on a few.

Actually according to this...

https://twitter.com/...504465648574464

They want you to buy MORE copies of a favorite mech.

Which quite frankly is the height of asinine stupidity.

Every mech in this game has their respective "meta" loadout, and that's the only loadout really worth taking. Anything less than the most optimal build is gimping yourself and your team.

Once I read that I realized PGI is completely disconnected from reality.

[Herodes]

Being a casual player with quite some Mechs and not so many games per week ... the new Skill Tree kills the game for me.

I will not be able to pay the C-Bills to master my Mechs.
I will not be able to change builds like I can do it now.
I already do not get enough C-Bills. It will be even worse with the new system.

I will thus master those few I like and sell the rest to finance it.
Sell Mechs bought with hard cash for C-Bills to actually use other Mechs.
Utter madness and stupidity that a company actually thinks I'll just go along with this.

So this ends it for me. I will not invest any more in such a game. This will be a nice point in time to change direction and attitude towards this game. They can screw someone else.

And I am / was a big spender.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

its a big step in the **** of all Players thats buy many Mechs and Mechpacks .In the Future more time in the Skilltree as in the Game...SkillsetwarriorOnline..overcomplicated terrible system

Edited by Old MW4 Ranger, 12 February 2017 - 09:07 PM.

[reflectorjones]

Clownwarlord, on 11 February 2017 - 05:57 PM, said:

It will be fine. The cost is actually cheaper if you have been buying mods for each and every mech, and yes there are people who do this. Why? because module hunting is a pain in the *** and wastes time I could be blowing mechs up. As for re-specializing a mech get it right the first time and then you do not have to worry, but if you don't all you have to do is a little grind to fix it. No real world money has to be spent on this game unless you want to. Just like all other free-to-play games it is a cost of real money to cut down the time of the grind.

This is bull... I don't even have enough c-bills to put engines in all of my mechs, and have to swap them around accordingly. If you think its by choice 1/2 my mechs have INVALID across them you'd be mistaken.

Edited by reflectorjones, 12 February 2017 - 09:36 PM.

[Vellron2005]

What the cbill cost of skills actually does, is it extends the time MWO is a viable game for the player by extending the grind.

Assuming each QP drop is a reasonable win, or a great loss, you are rewarded 100K+ cbills. That means that to master a mech, you have to drop a minimum of 91 times (one for each skill).

That's alot more than the time it took us to master a single mech now..

BUT - its still about the same time it took us to grind up 3 mechs worth of cbills, buy 3 variants, and basic them all.. So.. its really kinda the same?

But we only get one mech, not 3.. and that's what we wanted, is it not?

[Alan Davion]

Vellron2005, on 14 February 2017 - 04:53 AM, said:

What the cbill cost of skills actually does, is it extends the time MWO is a viable game for the player by extending the grind.

Assuming each QP drop is a reasonable win, or a great loss, you are rewarded 100K+ cbills. That means that to master a mech, you have to drop a minimum of 91 times (one for each skill).

That's alot more than the time it took us to master a single mech now..

BUT - its still about the same time it took us to grind up 3 mechs worth of cbills, buy 3 variants, and basic them all.. So.. its really kinda the same?

But we only get one mech, not 3.. and that's what we wanted, is it not?

Grinding is one thing. I've been grinding my way through the Tier 7 ships in World of Warships, and that's about as grindy as I'm willing to tolerate.

What this grind will do to MWO is grind it to a flipping halt.

If it takes LONGER to master a mech in the NEW system than in the OLD system, then the NEW system is poorly implemented and will severely discourage people from grinding out new mechs.

In addition, have you looked at Russ' twitter feed lately? He actually went and said that this new system is supposedly geared towards making people buy MULTIPLE COPIES OF THE SAME MECH.

That right there smacks of incompetence and a disconnection from reality and the players themselves.

A mech variant has one 'optimal' loadout, if you follow the mindset of the meta-comp players, and to take anything less is putting yourself and your team at a disadvantage.

However, player attitudes aside, the optimal loadout thought still applies. The loadout that allows you to kill your enemy most quickly and efficiently is the loadout you should take. To do anything less is to put you and your team at a disadvantage.

Buying multiple copies of a specific mech variant, depending on the chassis/variant, doesn't really allow for much in the way of experimentation.

For example, I'll use my favorite chassis, the Shadow Hawk.

According to Meta Mechs, the optimal loadouts are as follows.

SHD-2H: 2 AC5s with 6 tons of ammo and 1 AC2 with 2 tons of ammo.
Total hardpoints: 3 Ballistic, 3 Missile, 1 Energy and 1 AMS.
Experimentation Potential: I'd say pretty low. Scrap the AC2/ammo, you free up 8 tons, which can get you a LPL and a DHS, or 3 SRM4s and 2 tons of ammo. If anything I'd say the 2AC5/LPL loadout would be better as the LPL can at least be a backup if you're good enough to run out of ammo before dying. Run out of ammo with both the 2AC5s/3SRM4s and you're useless.

SHD-2D: 1 AC20 with 3 tons of ammo and 1 PPC.
Total hardpoints: 3 Energy, 3 Missile, 1 Ballistic and 1 AMS.
Experimentation Potential: Also low. Best alternate loadout I can make would be to drop the PPC and add 2 Medium Lasers, 2 SRM4s and a ton of ammo.

SHD-2D2: 1 AC10 with 2.5 tons of ammo and 4 SRM4s with 4.5 tons of ammo.
Total hardpoints: 4 Missile, 2 Energy, 1 Ballistic and 1 AMS.
Experimentation Potential: Again. Low. Next best loadout would be to drop the DHS, and the half-ton of ammo for the AC and SRM and add a couple medium lasers.

SHD-2K: 3 Large Pulse Lasers.
Total hardpoints: 3 Energy, 3 Missile and 1 AMS.
Experimentation Potential: Better than the previous variants at least. You can potentially upgrade to PPCs. Not a good idea to fire them all at once of course, but that's a nasty surprise for anyone. You can also get 3 SRM6s, 3 MPLs and an engine upgrade, which would be a pretty nasty brawler if you could get into range without suffering too much damage.

SHD-5M: 2 UAC5s with 7 tons of ammo.
Total hardpoints: 2 Ballistic, 2 Energy 2 Missile and 1 AMS.
Experimentation Potential: Practically Zero. By dropping the UAC5s down to normal AC5s you only free up 2 more tons, which is either 2 more tons of ammo or 2 medium lasers. Missiles are pretty much worthless on this variant.

SHD-GD: 1 AC20 with 4 tons of ammo and 4 Medium Lasers.
Total hardpoints: 4 Energy, 2 Missile, 1 Ballistic and 1 AMS.
Experimentation Potential: Again, practically zero. Dropping the AC20/ammo to an AC10 only frees up about 6 tons. Not enough to do anything of consequence aside from add a little bit more ammo.

In the current version of the game I would go so far as to say that the 2K and 5M models would be the two strongest models, with the Gray Death and 2D next because the lasers and PPC provide back up weaponry once the ammo runs dry. The 2H and 2D2 are the most ammo dependent, and while they could be powerful, they are also susceptible to either the ammo running dry before you've properly killed someone, or to ammo explosions if you get surprise-butt-sexed by a sneaky light.

Yes the 5M has a similar weakness, but those UAC5s are nothing to sneeze at either. That said, the 2K and 5M also fit the best under the current version of the skill tree, seeing as they only mount one weapon system. All the others mount 2 and therefore can't be as powerful as the 2K and 5M under the current meta.

Granted I probably chose the absolute WORST mech chassis to showcase Russ' statement about the skill tree making people buy more of the same variants, but that's kind of the point I was trying to make. There's literally only one variant of the Shadow Hawk that has any half-decent ability to run different builds other than the meta build.

Other mechs might have better potential for their variants to run more varied builds other than the meta build, but how many mechs are there out there like the Shadow Hawk? How many mechs have just that one optimum meta build? I dare say that number is far larger than most of us like to think.

The fact that Russ doesn't seem to understand that scares the absolute ever-loving crap out of me and does not give me any hope for MWOs future.

[Almond Brown]

Alan Davion, on 12 February 2017 - 10:13 AM, said:

snip

Every mech in this game has their respective "meta" loadout, and that's the only loadout really worth taking. Anything less than the most optimal build is gimping yourself and your team.

snip

if that it actually true, then why is there so much Whining about the Re-Spec costs of Mechs????

Edited by Almond Brown, 14 February 2017 - 03:43 PM.

[Alan Davion]

Almond Brown, on 14 February 2017 - 03:42 PM, said:

if that it actually true, then why is there so much Whining about the Re-Spec costs of Mechs????

FFS, why is it that people can only latch onto one part of a persons argument here?

Alan Davion, on 14 February 2017 - 02:44 PM, said:

Granted I probably chose the absolute WORST mech chassis to showcase Russ' statement about the skill tree making people buy more of the same variants, but that's kind of the point I was trying to make. There's literally only one variant of the Shadow Hawk that has any half-decent ability to run different builds other than the meta build.

Other mechs might have better potential for their variants to run more varied builds other than the meta build, but how many mechs are there out there like the Shadow Hawk? How many mechs have just that one optimum meta build? I dare say that number is far larger than most of us like to think.

I chose what is probably the worst mech chassis to illustrate my point with, but that in itself was the point.

Russ himself tweeted the point of this new skill system was to make people buy multiple copies of the same mech, but the problem with that is, what if that specific mech is only suited for just one build?

With the current skill system only allowing you to spend skill points on just one weapon system after speccing up in the required trees like lower chassis mobility, defense and auxiliary systems, there's no real room for experimentation.

As I pointed out with the SHD-2K and SHD-5M, there's only enough flexibility for maybe 2 different builds, but those builds still rely on just one weapon system for the most part.

So Russ' statement about buying multiple copies of the same mech falls flat on its face when a certain mech variant simply doesn't allow for more than 1-2 builds.

As far as people whining about the costs associated with skilling up their mechs, it's probably because they have a large number of mechs mastered, but not enough C-Bills, even after the Module refund, to fully skill up all those previously mastered mech.

Now, I haven't complained about the costs because I've only got I think like 2 mechs fully mastered out, and I've got enough money now to fully skill them back up, but, my main complaint is that this new skill system would substantially increase the grind on the mechs I don't have fully mastered, and that kills my interest in the game.

[pyrocomp]

Koniving, on 11 February 2017 - 07:28 PM, said:

On a side note, I think the skill tree should be renamed to a "tinker" tree. Or upgrade tree or modification tree. Because none of these things have to do with a pilot's skills... but modifications to the machines.

Actually speed tweak (somebody in PGI has a unique ability to choose the most inapropriate names), hill climb and some other things are more of a pilot skill.
Might be a Grand Grind idea to keep the Tech Tree (on PTS now, C-bills and for each Mech and preferably downsides on each 'upgrade' like higher speed with worse turning rates) and above it Skill Tree (rule of 3 in place on purpose, eats XP only) with very carefully selected strait-up upgrades (top speed, better accel/decel, hill climb, JJs etc.).

[Chound]

Chuanhao, on 12 February 2017 - 05:21 AM, said:

Indeed. Moving ahead, removing the need for three variants is a good thing, but the issue is those that have already "mastered" their current mechs.

In this case, it's not the skill tree, but the transition plan for current players.

We the existing pool do have a double whammy. We already spent cash or cbills on three variants. We don't benefit from the removal of the "need for three". And yet we still have to invest more to now remaster mechs we already mastered.

As such, the current pool of mastered mechs should have any number of pre-existing slots pre assigned. For example, any mechs already mastered, which I think requires about 60k XP, should have pre existing 45 slots already in place for selection right from the bat.

The transition plan like refunds has been already mentioned. PGI needs to now put in the sweetners for the need to remaster. This is because the cost in both cash and time and cbills for the other two variants cannot be adequately refunded. So I think minimally give us sufficient slots equal to whatever state a mech is already subjected to old skill tree max, and that's that. Better than a flat XP refund, where we still have to spend cbills on. AGAIN!

too bad they didn't put an option in to take the existing mech and equip it with the appropriate skills that are equivalent to the skills and modules already unlocked or purchased.. new skill tree take old tree, remove rule of three, allow us to only buy the skills and modules we want, and have only ONE type of XP,but keep the existing structure of the tree instead of the mech weapons and pilot skills catagories..They can use the old GUI which is a lot easier to look at than this mess

[Koniving]

pyrocomp, on 14 February 2017 - 05:06 PM, said:

Actually speed tweak (somebody in PGI has a unique ability to choose the most inapropriate names), hill climb and some other things are more of a pilot skill.
Might be a Grand Grind idea to keep the Tech Tree (on PTS now, C-bills and for each Mech and preferably downsides on each 'upgrade' like higher speed with worse turning rates) and above it Skill Tree (rule of 3 in place on purpose, eats XP only) with very carefully selected strait-up upgrades (top speed, better accel/decel, hill climb, JJs etc.).

They technically could be if... There were some risk inherent to them if attempted while unskilled.
Though even these two examples.... Hill climb may as well be the design quirk that gives Quickdraws an easier time climbing inclines due to flexibility. Speed tweak in its current form is more of an engine tweak.... It isn't as good as "sprint" or requiring any skill from the actual player.

Far as this tree.... Some nice things exist but... There is no way I could manage to bring my 217 mechs to a competitive standpoint let alone get more mechs.

Makes the pitch "do you wanna buy a mech pack" get a bit sour.

[and zero]

Prosperity Park, on 11 February 2017 - 06:37 PM, said:

There are no MC requirements for anything on the skill tree. None. Not respecing, not leveling up. Everything can be done with Cbills and normal mech XP.

It is not "monetized" once you consider that there is no cash requirement whatsoever.

Maybe you don't understand how F2P economies function or simply don't know what monetization actually means...but this is the very definition of monetizing a feature/function. It's adding a significant cost in either time or money that was not previously there. That's being monetized.

[pyrocomp]

Koniving, on 14 February 2017 - 10:42 PM, said:

They technically could be if... There were some risk inherent to them if attempted while unskilled.
Though even these two examples.... Hill climb may as well be the design quirk that gives Quickdraws an easier time climbing inclines due to flexibility. Speed tweak in its current form is more of an engine tweak.... It isn't as good as "sprint" or requiring any skill from the actual player.

Far as this tree.... Some nice things exist but... There is no way I could manage to bring my 217 mechs to a competitive standpoint let alone get more mechs.

Makes the pitch "do you wanna buy a mech pack" get a bit sour.

As for the skills the speed can come from tech upgrades and be (plus some minor, but noticable bonus) also in the pilot skill tree. E.g. both trees can give you same bonus on the same stat. Just rules to get both are different.
As for the 'sprint'... well, the crazy idea is to introduce same MASC-like mechanic to each mech, locked before you get that skill (or, if and when the knockdowns are reintroduced, is available from the start BUT have big chance of falling on every step). The speed bonus and duration shuold be less that are from MASC, but still.

As for the mastering. Petition for inclusion of not only the Historical XP, but of historical C-Bills also (for every mastered mech the ammount needed to master it under the new system). I think this is possible and can get through right into the Russ' cranium.

[Skribs]

I agree. The C-Bill costs to level and respec are outrageous. If it costs XP, it shouldn't cost C-Bills.

Respecs should be free.

[soapyfrog]

Burke IV, on 12 February 2017 - 09:38 AM, said:

When i pointed out how badly some were gonna get shafted nobody wanted to talk about it. "the only fair way is an unlocked mech before the new tree should equal an unlocked mech after" i said. "we dont want any more grind" i said.

And you were right.