33 replies to this topic

[Nosiwosi]

I think alot of people are confused when comparing the current system and the new skill tree. You DO NOT have to use up all 91 skill points to replicate what the old skills give. So far I'm liking the new system in terms of cost, granted the biggest downside is you can't share modules anymore. But it's a small sacrifice imo.

Let's compare how much it cost and grind to Master a Raven if you're a new player. This was my 1st mech when I started playing back sometime in July/August. We will assume that I will share equipment and the engine, as well as SELL ALL the extra equipment I won't use. This is exactly how I did it when I was starting out anyway. And these are the builds I used according to what I found reading guides and tinkering on my own. Following my memory, I mastered the 3L 1st. So let's say I only master that variant for now, and only Elited the 4X and 2X.

Here are the total figures of current and new, breakdown is below if you're interested.

Current:
Total for 3 Ravens no Modules:
18,596,822 cbills
150,500 XP

Total for 3 Ravens + 3L Max Moduled: (ERLL Range, ERLL CD, Advanced Zoom, Radar Deprivation)
32,596,822 Cbills
150,500 XP
27,000 GXP

New:
Total Cost for the 3L no Modules, replicating the current skill tree as close as possible:
16,035,276 Cbills
85,500 XP/GXP
59 Skill Points

Total Cost + Modules:
17,935,276 Cbills
114,000 XP/GXP
76 Skill Points

Total Cost + Max Skill points allocated:
19,435,276 Cbills
136,500 XP/GXP
91 Skill Points


Equipment Cost:
Raven 2X:
Stock Loadout: 2 ML, 1 LL, 1 SRM 6, Std 175 Engine, 1 ton SRM ammo, 5 std heat sinks
Final Loadout: 2 LL, 2 ML, XL 245, 3 DHS, DHS, Endo, Ferro, AMS, 1/2 AMS ammo
2,473,658 store price
+ 1,500,000 DHS Upg
+ 350,000 Endo Upg
+ 175,000 Ferro Upg
+ 4,001,583 XL 245
+ 36,000 3 DBL HS
+ 200,000 AMS
+ 2,000 1/2 Ton AMS ammo
+ 200,000 Large Laser
- 536,617 Sold Std 175 Engine
- 10,000 Sold 5 std HS
- 80,000 Sold SRM 6
Total: 8,311,624

Raven 4X:
Stock Loadout: 2 MLas, 1 MG, 1 SRM 6, 5 JJ Class V, 5 Std HS, Std 175 Engine
Final Loadout: 2 ERLL, 5 JJ, XL 245, 2 DHS, DHS Upg, Endo, Ferro, AMS, 1/2 AMS Ammo
2,520,666 Store Price
+ 1,500,000 DHS Upg
+ 350,000 Endo Upg
+ 304,456 Ferro + Armor Upg (313 cbills per point of armor)
+ 800,000 2 ERLL
- 536,617 Sold Std 175 Engine
- 10,000 Sold 5 Std HS
- 80,000 Sold SRM 6
- 5,000 Sold MG
- 80,000 Sold 2 MLas
Total: 4,763,505

Raven 3L:
Stock Loadout: 2 Mlas, 1 SRM 6, Narc, ECM, Tag, Case, 3 Std HS, XL 210 Engine, Ferro, BAP
Final Loadout: 2 ERLL, Tag, ECM, XL 245, DHS Upg, Endo
5,862,992 Store Price
+ 1,500,000 DHS Upg
+ 350,000 Endo Upg
+ 39,618 Armor Upg (came up as 313 per point of armor added)
- 1,714,917 Sold XL 210 Engine
- 6,000 Sold 3 Std HS
- 80,000 Sold SRM 6
- 200,000 Sold BAP
- 50,000 Sold CASE
- 80,000 Sold 2 MLas
- 100,000 Sold NARC
Total = 5,521,693

Total for 3 Raven's Equipment = 18,596,822 cbills


Current Mech Skills:
Basic: 21,500 XP (values written are as if you've elited and got the 2x)
Cool Run 15%
Kinetic Burst 15%
Twist X 5%
Heat Containment 20%
Hard Break 15%
Twist Speed /5%
Arm Reflex /5%
Anchor Turn 5%

Elite: 21,500 XP
Quick Ignition 33%
Fast Fire 5%
Pinpoint 15%
Speed Tweak 7.5%

Master: 21,500
Module Slot

Total XP to Master 1 Mech: 150,500 (64,500 + 43,000 + 43,000)


Modules:
LL Range = 3,500 GXP, 3m Cbills
ML Range = 3,500 GXP, 3m Cbills
ERLL Range = 3,500 GXP, 3m Cbills
ERLL Cooldown = 3,500 GXP, 3m Cbills
Advanced Zoom = 5,000 GXP, 2m Cbills
Radar Deprivation = 15,000 GXP, 6m Cbills
Total = 30,500 GXP, 17m Cbills


Now with the new skill Tree, I only need to Purchase the 3L.
Raven 3L:
Stock Loadout: 2 Mlas, 1 SRM 6, Narc, ECM, Tag, Case, 3 Std HS, XL 210 Engine, Ferro, BAP
Final Loadout: 2 ERLL, Tag, ECM, XL 245, DHS Upg, Endo

5,862,992 Store Price
+ 1,500,000 DHS Upg
+ 350,000 Endo Upg
+ 39,618 Armor Upg (came up as 313 per point of armor added)
+ 4,001,583 XL 245
+ 800,000 2 ERLL
+ 12,000 3 DHS
- 1,714,917 Sold XL 210 Engine
- 6,000 Sold 3 Std HS
- 80,000 Sold SRM 6
- 200,000 Sold BAP
- 50,000 Sold CASE
- 80,000 Sold 2 MLas
- 100,000 Sold NARC
Total = 10,335,276



New ST to replicate stats from Current ST:
Trying to replicate or come close to values found on the old mech skill tree. Values/names in () are from the current ST. There is no Pinpoint in this new ST, and I will use the Laser Cooldown's max 5% to replicate Fast Fire.


Layout 1: No Modules

Torso Pitch 6% (Twist X 5%)
Torso Speed 4.5% (Twist Speed 5%)
Arm Speed 16% (Arm Relfex 5%)
Cool Run 10% (15%)
Heat Containment 15% (20%)
Quick Ignition 35% (33%)
Hard Break 40% (15%)
Kinetic Burst 50% (15%)
Turn Rate 12% (Anchor Turn 5%)
Speed Tweak 7.5% (7.5%
Laser Cooldown 5% (Fast Fire 5%)

Extra skills acquired due to going down the tree:
Hill Climb 15%
Speed Retention 20%
Arm Speed 16%
Laser Duration 3%
Laser Range 8%
Fall Damage 40%

Cost:
57 Skill Points
5,700,000 Cbills
85,500 XP/GXP


Layout 2: With Modules (Advanced Zoom, Radar Derp, ERLL Range) There is no more cooldown module to compare cause I already used the 5% CD for fast fire.

Torso Pitch 6% (Twist X 5%)
Torso Speed 4.5% (Twist Speed 5%)
Arm Speed 16% (Arm Relfex 5%)
Cool Run 10% (15%)
Heat Containment 15% (20%)
Quick Ignition 35% (33%)
Hard Break 40% (15%)
Kinetic Burst 50% (15%)
Turn Rate 12% (Anchor Turn 5%)
Speed Tweak 7.5% (7.5%
Laser Cooldown 5% (Fast Fire 5%)
Laser Range 10%
Advanced Zoom
Radar Deprivation 100% (I'm guessing you need 100% to equal the current RD)

Extra skills acquired due to going down the tree:
Hill Climb 15%
Speed Retention 20%
Arm Speed 16%
Laser Duration 3%
Target Info Gathering 35%
Target Decay Duration 0.7
360 Target Retention Range 200
Sensor Range 35%
Fall Damage 40%

Cost:
76 Skill Points
7,600,000 Cbills
114,000 XP/GXP


Layout 3: Using up all 91 Skill points the way I like it.

Cool Run 10% (15%)
Heat Containment 6% (20%)
Quick Ignition 35% (33%)
Hard Break 50% (15%)
Kinetic Burst 50% (15%)
Turn Rate 30% (Anchor Turn 5%)
Speed Tweak 7.5% (7.5%
Laser Cooldown 5% (Fast Fire 5%)
Laser Range 10%
Laser Duration -15%
Laser Heat -5%
Armor Bonus 25%
Structure Bonus 35%
Advanced Zoom
Radar Deprivation 100% (I'm guessing you need 100% to equal the current RD)
Seismic Sensor

Extra skills acquired due to going down the tree:
Hill Climb 15%
Speed Retention 20%
Arm Speed 16%
Laser Duration 3%
Target Info Gathering 35%
Target Decay Duration 1.4
360 Target Retention Range 200
Sensor Range 35%
Fall Damage

Cost:
91 Skill Points
9,100,000
136,500 XP/GXP


Comments, suggestions, violent reactions are all welcome. XD

[Cy Mitchell]

Just a couple points:

If you do not use the full 91 points then you will be at a disadvantage when you face everyone else that does.

I own multiples of the same variant on 5 of the 7 chassis that I own. All of them are Mastered once I Master one of them in the old system and each has a different build. In the new system, I have to either level and pay to level each of the duplicates separately or I have to constantly respec one variant to fill both roles the old ones did.

Add in the lost ability to move around modules and the abilities they bring and suddenly the new Skill Tree gets expensive.

I have leveled up 5 Mechs on PTS that were previously Mastered. Each time I had to supplement the HXP on the Mech with GXP extensively. Without the bonus GXP and C-Bills they gave us on the PTS, I would be pretty much broke already.

I think that if the XP for each SP was dropped to 1000 and the C-Bill cost was 50K then it would be more reasonable. A lot of people are not even going to be happy at those rates because they feel that now they have to pay additional C-Bills to do what they already did before over again.

[MechaBattler]

It is cheaper...

Still I feel like charging for skills adds a layer of c-bill grind that will turn off a lot of new players. Grinding the mech cost, upgrades, and equipment is already frustrating. Except now they'll be blocked off from skilling up as well. "Can't afford to get skills, I really need those dubs!"

As opposed to right now. "I'm earning c-bills for dubs, Oh hey, I have enough experience for some basic skills"

[Dogstar]

You're picking and choosing your comparison to look good.

I've got 3 elite Ravens with different builds that I bought for real money and they have one SRM 4 cooldown module between them - if I want get them back to where they are now I will probably need to spend a least 12 million

Considering my limited play time that's weeks of play just to get three good mechs sorted - when I add in the hundred odd other mechs, most of which still need XL engines, that's years of grinding against other players who have fully skilled up their mechs.

Oh and they're all IS mechs which are getting their quirks removed - so that will be fun playing against clan mechs that are suddenly 10% better than they were before thanks to the skill tree.

The current system screws over a lot of casual players who buy mechs for real money not good idea when the company subsists on selling mechpacks...

[Vizius]

These types of cost analysis fall apart as soon as you want to master the 2nd or 3rd variant. The comparison should be the cost of mastering 3 mechs in the old system vs 3 in the new system to get better idea on the cost difference. Even doing this is not entirely accurate, but it gives the cost comparison at its highest, just like the OP gives the lowest cost example. Every one of these cost comparisons assumes you only want to keep one mech per chassis.

Edited by Vizius, 11 February 2017 - 03:20 AM.

[Bud Crue]

Are people all planning to just sell the 2 of 3 mechs necessary for these sort of comparisons to make sense?
Oh wait. All that gets you is around 400K for each raven and XP that are now stuck forever on mechs you no longer have. I have three unique and fully mastered variants under the old system...compare 3 unique and fully mastered mechs under the new system and the comparison is not nearly as "fair".

Moreover, in an apples to apples comparison you must look at all three mechs in both systems and you must consider full node use. To do otherwise ignores reality. The new meta will undoubtedly be one based on fully mastered, fully kitted out mechs...just like the old meta. Making a comparison of the two systems while ignoring that, and ignoring the ACTUAL costs in both systems give a false comparison and an utterly subjective reality.

I have yet been able to duplicate current server, mastered mech performance on any three mechs in the PTS and I am using most nodes on mech performance as opposed to weapons.

[Ori Disciple]

Ill just say this. Some people are complaining because they actually LIKED the 3 variants that they had to get to master, and it WILL be more expensive for them. For example: I LOVE my bushwackers. I got my X2 with LB10, 2 SRM4, 2 ML, by SRM Brawler with 4 SRMS, and my trolly 3LRM5 bushwacker. It's gonna cost me 27 million to upgrade all of them, and lets not forget how much they are likely to cost for C-bills once they are available to everyone else. It IS more expensive for people who like all three variants of mechs that they had to get before.

[Barkem Squirrel]

Just think under the old system may of us just got sick of changing out modules, so there are three camps.

Forget it, I do not need modules.

I have the modules on mechs that I want them on and screw the rest.

I have to have modules on every mech period!. (maybe 18 million c-bills per mech on modules, some 24 million)

[Monkey Lover]

Rampage, on 10 February 2017 - 11:51 PM, said:

If you do not use the full 91 points then you will be at a disadvantage when you face everyone else that does.

How much of a disadvantage is what matters. Is it worth grinding days or paying cash for 2% more cooldown or faster hill climbing?

I ran my mechs at a disadvantage all the time as I didnt run modules but I still always placed in the top of the team...

I still feel using up half the nodes is way good enough for 99% of us.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 11 February 2017 - 07:51 AM.

[Skribs]

If you swapped out modules before, your playstyle under the new system will be as if your modules were locked into a new Mech.

You're not going to get the C-Bills required to master everything, so you're going to be stuck with a handful of Mechs that have modules permanently, and a lot that don't. Oh, and if you want to swap "modules" on those Mechs, then you're in for a bigger price, as well.

[Drebin Cormack]

My question is this? Why does it even cost c-bills to master these skills anyway?

It makes no sense logically outside of game design. Get rid of the c-bill cost altogether. Make us spend mech xp or gxp to purchase SP for that chassis. Once you have SP, they can be allocated however you desire. It encourages experimentation and may even cut down on the weapon boating we're likely to see with this new system.

As it sits, it'll just drive me away from the game. Before you did have to buy two other chassis, but that had the benefit of you owning two more mechs. Not to mention the fact I could move modules around to my hearts content. I'm willing to accept the removal of modules (and their transfer between mechs) but only if I can rearrange my SP however I desire on a mech. We don't need another c-bill sink. The fitting meta is one of the most fun aspects of the game imo, and the new system will just kill that, because I'll feel that I'm being penalized for changing up my loadout.

[Padre Balistique]

Barkem Squirrel, on 11 February 2017 - 07:07 AM, said:

Just think under the old system may of us just got sick of changing out modules, so there are three camps.

Forget it, I do not need modules.

I have the modules on mechs that I want them on and screw the rest.

I have to have modules on every mech period!. (maybe 18 million c-bills per mech on modules, some 24 million)

I will gladly play module hide and seek for the rest of my life, if it means I dont have to spend 10 million damn cbills to level every mech (especially galling with lights, where its like 2x-5x the cost of the mech to level it)

[Barantor]

I don't understand some folks love of having 3 mechs, especially if you only really want the one.

There has been several chassis where I like only one or two variants that are offered, yet had to level up one that I hated. I have viewed it as an 'excess tax' and grind when I've had to do those, or when I've found the one variant in a chassis that I did not like and then went and bought a different one.

I don't like pokemech, I want to be good in a few mechs and could care less about the rest.

I like that it is less expensive compared to currently when calculating 3 mechs.

[Padre Balistique]

Barantor, on 11 February 2017 - 08:19 AM, said:

I don't understand some folks love of having 3 mechs, especially if you only really want the one.

There has been several chassis where I like only one or two variants that are offered, yet had to level up one that I hated. I have viewed it as an 'excess tax' and grind when I've had to do those, or when I've found the one variant in a chassis that I did not like and then went and bought a different one.

I don't like pokemech, I want to be good in a few mechs and could care less about the rest.

I like that it is less expensive compared to currently when calculating 3 mechs.

Well guess what, the skill tree is going to be even more pokemech.

Only instead of buying 3 variants, you are buying 3 of the variant you like, so you arent locked into a single boat build, cause its either that or waste millions on respecing and reskilling in a tedius skill tree every time you want to slightly alter a build or experiment.

[Drebin Cormack]

Barantor, on 11 February 2017 - 08:19 AM, said:

I don't understand some folks love of having 3 mechs, especially if you only really want the one.

You're missing the point here. The cost of mastering a specific chassis netted you two mechs. Whether these mechs were good for your play-style or not is irrelevant. You still got something for your trouble: Two more elite mechs. Yes, the new system does have its good points, a likely ttk increase being one of them, but the downsides are too much. Before I got items and mechs that I could to with whatever I wanted. With this build I'd just be spending 9.1 million c-bills per mech, over and over again with no benefits. Before I had modules and mechs to show for my grinding, and now I have nothing. It's even worse if I decide to respec a mech.

The new system wants me to pay to unlock nodes in the skill tree, and pay again and again if I want to change those nodes. Say I want to change from regular lasers to pulse lasers? 2 million cbills please. This doesn't even take into account the monstrosity of the trees themselves. Radar Dep hidden all thoughout a tree forcing you to choose the whole tree. The same for speed tweak. Reduce the number of SP per mech or increase those nodes cost in terms of sp if you want to make those more valuable, don't hide them behind an entire tree of nodes.

I recently got back into the game a few months ago thanks to the $20 mech packs that came with premium time. I got three mechs and a month worth of premium, and I felt like this was a pretty good way to do it. Now it seems PGI just wants another c-bill sink, to make the whales spend more money. (Less c-bills available = more buying of mech packs in their eyes) If the system releases as it is, I'm gone. I'll go back to playing MWLL and 2-4 to get my MW fix. I stopped playing STO when they started the lockbox, c-store, and dilithium trash, and I'll stop with this game as well.

[Skribs]

The good points of the new system can be done without the new system.

Remove the rule of 3. Change Pinpoint to a 10% armor increase.

Rule of 3 gone, TTK increased, and you don't have to deal with all the negatives of the new skill tree.

[Bud Crue]

Barantor, on 11 February 2017 - 08:19 AM, said:

I don't understand some folks love of having 3 mechs, especially if you only really want the one.

That's just it...I didn't want just one. In some cases I wanted 3 or 4 or 5 or 13. All of those purchases are now flushed in the current system.

To wit: Of my two Warhammer 6Rs. Under the current system two mastered mechs, fully kitted out. Under the new system I don't even have enough XP to master 1, and I may as well forget the existence of my mastered Black Widow, 6D and 7S. 70-90 HXP on each of them is not enough XP to make it worth my while to even bother messing with them on the PTS. That means I will likely not play them...at all. Add to that the fact that PGI, as part of the PTS, also nerfed the weapons performance on all of these mechs makes it even more likely that they will never see the light of day. Yet, the stated goal of the PTS is to encourage diversity. I think not. You may no like it, but by its very nature, the rule of three did more for mech and build diversity than this PTS could ever do.

[Padre Balistique]

Bud Crue, on 11 February 2017 - 08:59 AM, said:

That's just it...I didn't want just one. In some cases I wanted 3 or 4 or 5 or 13. All of those purchases are now flushed in the current system.

To wit: Of my two Warhammer 6Rs. Under the current system two mastered mechs, fully kitted out. Under the new system I don't even have enough XP to master 1, and I may as well forget the existence of my mastered Black Widow, 6D and 7S. 70-90 HXP on each of them is not enough XP to make it worth my while to even bother messing with them on the PTS. That means I will likely not play them...at all. Add to that the fact that PGI, as part of the PTS, also nerfed the weapons performance on all of these mechs makes it even more likely that they will never see the light of day. Yet, the stated goal of the PTS is to encourage diversity. I think not. You may no like it, but by its very nature, the rule of three did more for mech and build diversity than this PTS could ever do.

There is only 2 things the PTS encourages.

1) Spending more money on cash mechs and MC, because they want you to waste your cbills on everything but buying cbill mechs.
2) Boating single weapon types. Which is good for clans, with their omni systems and lighter/smaller weapons, not so good for IS which have comparatively few boating mechs, and the boating mechs we do have are all energy, which will continue to be at significant range disadvantage vs the clans, especially with the clans getting all the boons that IS mechs are getting with the tree.

There is no uniqueness or diversity to be found here.

[Barantor]

Drebin Cormack, on 11 February 2017 - 08:54 AM, said:

You're missing the point here. The cost of mastering a specific chassis netted you two mechs.

You don't seem to understand and are missing my point.

I didn't want those two other mechs, I usually sold them right after.

I didn't want to spend time on them, I would rather spend time playing a mech I enjoy. I view playing those other mechs as a grind for something I only did to get my chosen mech mastered.

I also wonder how many folks actually experiment all that much? If you look at some sites that record builds there is usually a glut of build ideas when the mech first comes out, then maybe a handful or so more if a weapon is patched or something is changed in the game.

In my many years of playing this game I tend to see some of the same builds as when the mech came out originally. I'd like to know how many people change their mechs around on a daily/weekly or even monthly basis? I'm curious how much that impact is going to happen on the average player of this game, not someone who plays it daily? Could shed some light on that aspect at least.

If I'm in the minority I'll admit it, but I'm not sure I am.

Do note though that I am all for the xp cost being lowered, I just think that the x3 variants shouldn't be used as a "oh and you got this!" excuse so much.

[Padre Balistique]

Barantor, on 11 February 2017 - 09:15 AM, said:

You don't seem to understand and are missing my point.

I didn't want those two other mechs, I usually sold them right after.

I didn't want to spend time on them, I would rather spend time playing a mech I enjoy. I view playing those other mechs as a grind for something I only did to get my chosen mech mastered.

I also wonder how many folks actually experiment all that much? If you look at some sites that record builds there is usually a glut of build ideas when the mech first comes out, then maybe a handful or so more if a weapon is patched or something is changed in the game.

In my many years of playing this game I tend to see some of the same builds as when the mech came out originally. I'd like to know how many people change their mechs around on a daily/weekly or even monthly basis? I'm curious how much that impact is going to happen on the average player of this game, not someone who plays it daily? Could shed some light on that aspect at least.

If I'm in the minority I'll admit it, but I'm not sure I am.

Do note though that I am all for the xp cost being lowered, I just think that the x3 variants shouldn't be used as a "oh and you got this!" excuse so much.

on a night with my unit, I can change a build on my mech 5-10 times, for reasons from trying to find something else thats interesting, to having silly fun with themes like "Next drop all ERPPCs!"

On regular nights i can change a build 2-4 times, For anything from just not feeling the build i excelled at last time, to wanting to change my role and go, for instance, more snipey for a few rounds, then maybe some brawly after that.

Hell, even on my CW deck there is a somewhat regular altering of builds as I get tired of one role and want to experiment with builds for others.