34 replies to this topic

[Snowbluff]

I think UAC/10 for IS should be a 2 shot burst. Clan ballistics are already worse, despite being lighter. It'll still be better than the Clan version that way, but not by as much.

I am excited for Streak LRM if they are always direct fire and go faster, BUT NOT IF THEY RANDOMLY FIRE AT THE LEGS. I think they should spread kind of how LRMs do now, but staying within the profile of the enemy mech. Otherwise, they would be just heavier LRMs that spread their damage, right?

Edited by Snowbluff, 12 February 2017 - 08:49 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Snowbluff, on 12 February 2017 - 08:48 AM, said:

I think UAC/10 for IS should be a 2 shot burst. Clan ballistics are already worse, despite being lighter. It'll still be better than the Clan version that way, but not by as much.

I am excited for Streak LRM if they are always direct fire, BUT NOT IF THEY RANDOMLY FIRE AT THE LEGS. I think they should spread kind of how LRMs do now, but staying within the profile of the enemy mech.

Snowbluff, buddy...

You have professed, yourself, that you are not good with things that aren't FLD. You'll forgive me if I take your stance here with a grain of salt, especially when most don't seem to have any problem running the burst-fire cUACs and that those same cUACs are meta as f*ck in Leagues while IS versions are being dropped when the rules allow it.

That out of the way, the isUAC/10 is going to be 13 tons, you won't be able to capably carry more than two, and the total firepower is going to be about the same as 2x AC/10 with 4xMedLas. It is already self-limiting, like most IS gear. If you split it into two shots, the gun becomes a UAC/5 that weights +4 tons, occupies +2 slots, has -60 meters range, and has projectiles that very likely move at the speed of softballs.

AKA, it would be pointless. I should just take the lighter, smaller UAC/5.

[Y E O N N E]

Probably Not, on 12 February 2017 - 08:56 AM, said:

Wait. Do you mean a 2-shot burst before or after the "ultra" kicks in? Assuming you mean before, because IS UACs already do a 2-shot burst when ultra'd...

He means like the Clan Ultras. Each pull of the trigger would be two 5-damage shots.

[Snowbluff]

Yeonne Greene, on 12 February 2017 - 08:55 AM, said:

Snowbluff, buddy...

You have professed, yourself, that you are not good with things that aren't FLD. You'll forgive me if I take your stance here with a grain of salt, especially when most don't seem to have any problem running the burst-fire cUACs and that those same cUACs are meta as f*ck in Leagues while IS versions are being dropped when the rules allow it.

That out of the way, the isUAC/10 is going to be 13 tons, you won't be able to capably carry more than two, and the total firepower is going to be about the same as 2x AC/10 with 4xMedLas. It is already self-limiting, like most IS gear. If you split it into two shots, the gun becomes a UAC/5 that weights +4 tons, occupies +2 slots, has -60 meters range, and has projectiles that very likely move at the speed of softballs.

AKA, it would be pointless. I should just take the lighter, smaller UAC/5.

cUAC are only meta when you can mount a metric butt ton of them, AFAICT. I don't know about you, but almost all of my deaths from clan ballastics are clan gauss. I don't know if my playstyle or experience is aberrant, but I usually don't end up giving my enemies the face time they need to put on the extra damage, and simple twisting saves a lot of hurt.

Also, no ballistic weapon system is just the listed weight. They also have to carry ammo. 10 class cannons have 200 damage per ton, making them effectively lighter than they appear to be. A UAC5 with 4 tons of ammo is 13 tons. A UAC/10 with that much damage available would be 16 tons. Also, the velocity isn't behind that much on AC10 when compared to AC5, but the lesser range does suck.

As for carrying them, my Black Widow mounts 34 tons of guns as is. Ammo is tight, and I don't have backup weapons. I would gladly step to 2 UAC/10 for 26 tons if they FLD, and have room to spare for backup lasers (possible ERML with new tech), and more damage in ammo.

[Vanguard319]

X-pulse lasers do not deal more damage, they only match standard lasers in range in exchange for more heat. ER Pulse are the clan equivalent. Binary Lasers become more viable with DHS, which is what most people are going to use with energy boats anyway

As far as mechs go, I don't see the Celestial series Omnimechs being introduced, due to all of them having a retractable blade, unless PGI intends to implement some kind of melee system. I don't see the Yeoman either, not because it's hideous since it would obviously get some kind of redesign, but because it only has two variants.

[Snowbluff]

Vanguard319, on 12 February 2017 - 09:31 AM, said:

X-pulse lasers do not deal more damage, they only match standard lasers in range in exchange for more heat. ER Pulse are the clan equivalent. Binary Lasers become more viable with DHS, which is what most people are going to use with energy boats anyway

I thought X Pulse were like Ultra Autocannons, but pulse lasers? Large X Pulse sounds beastly.

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As far as mechs go, I don't see the Celestial series Omnimechs being introduced, due to all of them having a retractable blade, unless PGI intends to implement some kind of melee system. I don't see the Yeoman either, not because it's hideous since it would obviously get some kind of redesign, but because it only has two variants.

Retractable Blade! :0

[Y E O N N E]

Snowbluff, on 12 February 2017 - 09:16 AM, said:

cUAC are only meta when you can mount a metric butt ton of them, AFAICT. I don't know about you, but almost all of my deaths from clan ballastics are clan gauss. I don't know if my playstyle or experience is aberrant, but I usually don't end up giving my enemies the face time they need to put on the extra damage, and simple twisting saves a lot of hurt.

Also, no ballistic weapon system is just the listed weight. They also have to carry ammo. 10 class cannons have 200 damage per ton, making them effectively lighter than they appear to be. A UAC5 with 4 tons of ammo is 13 tons. A UAC/10 with that much damage available would be 16 tons. Also, the velocity isn't behind that much on AC10 when compared to AC5, but the lesser range does suck.

The only weapons which aren't meta when boated are the Gauss Rifle and 20-class ballistics. Even IS ACs are always boated whenever possible. AC/10 usually come in pairs, AC/5 come in threes through fives, UACs come in pairs to quartets. AC/20 used to come in pairs until they nerfed it into the ground, and those were gimmicky as hell. So, kind of a weak defense, there.

The 200 damge vs. 150 lets me gain one ton for every 600 damage I bring. So, 3 tons vs. 4. I have to bring a huge amount of ammo for that equation to play out the way you want it to. I wouldn't realistically bring more than six tons of ammo for a pair of UAC/5.

The velocity deficit doesn't look like much, but it is quite significant. That's why nobody pop-tarts seriously with an AC/10...too slow. There is a very noticeable gap between when the PPCs hit and when the AC/10 hits at 600 meters.

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As for carrying them, my Black Widow mounts 34 tons of guns as is. Ammo is tight, and I don't have backup weapons. I would gladly step to 2 UAC/10 for 26 tons if they FLD, and have room to spare for backup lasers (possible ERML with new tech), and more damage in ammo.

Your Black Widow has higher DPS than a pair of UAC/10 would and it's the raw DPS which makes it good, not the alpha size. If you get burst 10s, you would effectively be running two UAC/5. You can already essentially get what you want now by running a pair of those UAC/5 in conjunction with a pair of Large Lasers. It's not really a great build.

You'll pardon my bluntness, but what it really sounds like you want is something other than Gauss (because of charge) to PPFLD with on the Clan side and you are salty that it doesn't exist over there. There are very good reasons for that, and the fact that nobody takes IS PPFLD 'Mechs when the pressure is on to win should tell the entire story all by itself. =/

[Snowbluff]

Yeonne Greene, on 12 February 2017 - 09:40 AM, said:

The only weapons which aren't meta when boated are the Gauss Rifle and 20-class ballistics. Even IS ACs are always boated whenever possible. AC/10 usually come in pairs, AC/5 come in threes through fives, UACs come in pairs to quartets. AC/20 used to come in pairs until they nerfed it into the ground, and those were gimmicky as hell. So, kind of a weak defense, there.

For clanners, it's not cUAC meta. It's night gyr and kodiak meta.

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The 200 damge vs. 150 lets me gain one ton for every 600 damage I bring. So, 3 tons vs. 4. I have to bring a huge amount of ammo for that equation to play out the way you want it to. I wouldn't realistically bring more than six tons of ammo for a pair of UAC/5.

So 30.5 tons versus 24 for better alpha and DPS. :0

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The velocity deficit doesn't look like much, but it is quite significant. That's why nobody pop-tarts seriously with an AC/10...too slow. There is a very noticeable gap between when the PPCs hit and when the AC/10 hits at 600 meters.[/quote[
That's a cogent argument, if no one poptarts Ac/10s anyway. :l

[qupte]
Your Black Widow has higher DPS than a pair of UAC/10 would and it's the raw DPS which makes it good, not the alpha size. If you get burst 10s, you would effectively be running two UAC/5. You can already essentially get what you want now by running a pair of those UAC/5 in conjunction with a pair of Large Lasers. It's not really a great build.

Well I can't fit 4 UAC5 into it, and with the weight I saved by switching to geico I could fit 2 LPL. My alpha and DPS would be higher, as LPL = AC5, UAC10 > UAC5. Run those numbers by me again?

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You'll pardon my bluntness, but what it really sounds like you want is something other than Gauss (because of charge) to PPFLD with on the Clan side and you are salty that it doesn't exist over there. There are very good reasons for that, and the fact that nobody takes IS PPFLD 'Mechs when the pressure is on to win should tell the entire story all by itself. =/

More build variety. IN general, I feel like people want to shaft the clans over 2 weapon systems. The problem with IS PPFLD isn't the weapons systems, Mr. Fallacy Ad Populus, it's that PGI keeps nerfing the durability of the mechs that run it. I have a Warhammer 6R prepped and ready in my garage now.

The bigger problem is that you're talking about PPFLD for an ultra cannon. It's a DPS, general quality of a weapon, and ease of use, rather than a PPFLD discussion.

[Metus regem]

Personally I'd think they are likely going to go with Civil War era tech...

That being said, IS UAC/10 and 20 pose a bit of an issue. They set a precedent for IS UAC/s being single shot with the IS UAC/5, and I can see how that could be borderline broken on the 10/20's. On the other hand the 10/20's were copied off of Clan versions so I can see them being burst fire, but if they are going to be burst fire, they need to not be objectively worse than the Clan versions. Depending on how PGI approaches this will let me get a better idea of how they would approach RAC/s.

[Mcgral18]

Metus regem, on 12 February 2017 - 10:52 AM, said:

Personally I'd think they are likely going to go with Civil War era tech...

That being said, IS UAC/10 and 20 pose a bit of an issue. They set a precedent for IS UAC/s being single shot with the IS UAC/5, and I can see how that could be borderline broken on the 10/20's. On the other hand the 10/20's were copied off of Clan versions so I can see them being burst fire, but if they are going to be burst fire, they need to not be objectively worse than the Clan versions. Depending on how PGI approaches this will let me get a better idea of how they would approach RAC/s.

Same as the isUAC5


-1 to the burst, adjust from there

[Metus regem]

Mcgral18, on 12 February 2017 - 11:31 AM, said:

Same as the isUAC5


-1 to the burst, adjust from there

It's been a while since I used the cUAC/5, did they adjust the burst from 3 down to 2? Last time I used it it was a 3 round burst for 1.66 damage/shell, with the last one being 1.67...

[Mcgral18]

Metus regem, on 12 February 2017 - 11:49 AM, said:

It's been a while since I used the cUAC/5, did they adjust the burst from 3 down to 2? Last time I used it it was a 3 round burst for 1.66 damage/shell, with the last one being 1.67...

It's a 2 burst

2=1
5=2
10=3
20=4


http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/equipment

[Metus regem]

Mcgral18, on 12 February 2017 - 11:51 AM, said:

It's a 2 burst

2=1
5=2
10=3
20=4


http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/equipment

Nice, I wonder when that changed....

[MacKJames]

Lupis Volk, on 11 February 2017 - 10:09 PM, said:

3060 comes the best faction in BattleTech......Rasalhague Dominion!!!!!

Plz PGI i'd gib you all teh monnies i haz.

Wouldn't that be the Ghost Bear Dominion in 3060?

[Y E O N N E]

Snowbluff, on 12 February 2017 - 10:17 AM, said:

For clanners, it's not cUAC meta. It's night gyr and kodiak meta.

Nope, it's a UAC meta for pushing. The NTG and KDK are meta because they can do the Gauss+PPC or UAC things very well; It's not the other way around. Dakka was already king before the Kodiak and Night Gyr were in the game, through the Mauler, Warhammer, Ebon Jaguar, even the Direwolf.

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So 30.5 tons versus 24 for better alpha and DPS. :0

At the cost of not being able to also bring similar supplemental firepower?

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Well I can't fit 4 UAC5 into it, and with the weight I saved by switching to geico I could fit 2 LPL. My alpha and DPS would be higher, as LPL = AC5, UAC10 > UAC5. Run those numbers by me again?

No, you can't fit 2x LPL.

Here's a Warhammer with 2x AC/10 and 2xLPL. I've left two extra tons for the UAC/10s. I've got only three tons of ammo, no extra DHS, and I'm already slower than a Night Gyr. It's only 62 damage out with the double tap, which is well in-line with what you would expect out of a Clan Heavy, let alone an IS one. Except, unlike the Clan one, this is using energy weapons to boost it...meaning it runs hotter and can't keep it up as well. Also, lack of range synergy.

So you get to fire the current equivalent of 2x UAC/5 + 2x LPL/PPC unsustainably and from significantly closer because you are stuck at 10 DHS and pulse lasers. Congratulations on your hot, fragile, slow, and overall gimmicky build? You had a stronger case with isERML (or isLL), but at best it ends up a wash against what we can do now for Heavies. Which is the point I'm trying to make: the UAC/10 is nice, but it ultimately ends up as a side-grade to current capabilities. The weapon that is really going to do what you think the UAC/10 is going to do...is the RAC/5. And that's not an IS-exclusive.

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More build variety. IN general, I feel like people want to shaft the clans over 2 weapon systems. The problem with IS PPFLD isn't the weapons systems, Mr. Fallacy Ad Populus, it's that PGI keeps nerfing the durability of the mechs that run it. I have a Warhammer 6R prepped and ready in my garage now.

Mr. Fallacy and Populus? As opposed to Mr. Anecdotal & Ignorant? Come on now, I thought you were better than that. Do I have to bring my Mist Lynx argument up every single time discussions like this pop up?

People want to shaft the Clans over their entire arsenal. There is a reason why PGI made the lasers burn longer than IS versions and run hotter than table-top, and still that wasn't enough to put them at parity. They had to gig-aquirk the IS, and then only a few specific 'Mechs shined very briefly in the grand scheme of things. There is also a reason PGI made Clan ACs fire in bursts and, again, that still wasn't enough to put them at parity. There is no easy way to get around the boat-ability of Clan equipment and the otherwise superior specifications. and it's more than just the 'Mechs.

The IS can't pop-tart with Gauss because it requires an XL, and that XL will get you killed when that Gauss explodes in the ST. IS can't pop-tart with AC/10, because the AC/10 round is too short-ranged and too slow (had the same issue in 2014, actually). IS can bring 2x AC/5, but that has a 5 PPFLD deficit, there's still no splash, it's hotter, it's heavier, and the resulting 'Mech is less mobile. IS also can't FLD like a Kodiak or Marauder IIC because Gauss + XL and because they can't fire 3xPPC together without a penalty (else the BNC-3E would be fantastic). There are certain hard-point arrangements that can mitigate the XL drawbacks (and we don't have enough of 'Mechs so-equipped...which is why TheArisen, Quicksilver, Gas, and myself made that Metalicious IS Mechs thread), but to say there isn't an equipment problem is disingenuous at best.

I do have plenty of PPFLD IS Heavies myself (K2, RFL-3N, RFL-3C, WHM-6R, WHM-BW, MAD-5M, MAD-3R, TDR-9SE), but not one of them is considered good enough to compete anymore, if ever, all for the reasons outlined above. For Mediums, IS fair much, much better. You remove explosions on IS Gauss, bump PPC ghost limit to 3, and increase the range and velocity on the AC/10, and then it will be essentially a wash between IS and Clans on who can do FLD better. I don't see giving the Clans PPFLD ACs as increasing build variety, either. It just means almost nobody will take UACs because you can now push using cold-as-ice poptarts instead. Would not even need the (L) pods on the SMN to turn it into a monster. The 2014 meta is dead, long live the 2014 meta, etc.

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The bigger problem is that you're talking about PPFLD for an ultra cannon. It's a DPS, general quality of a weapon, and ease of use, rather than a PPFLD discussion.

Ease-of-use is what PGI has chosen to balance IS vs. Clans when they went to longer duration and burst-fire for otherwise superior equipment. It's also the reason they put a charge on the Gauss for everybody.

And it is still an FLD discussion. I might be able to get near the Clan PPC+Gauss FLD with IS, but never at similar speeds, with similar range, with similar jump capabilities, and with similar durability. It is the whole package that counts.