9 replies to this topic

[Pyed]

Theorycrafting!

I've only done a mock-up of weapons so far, but wouldn't it be nifty if the choices offered actually had tradeoffs and made a meaningful difference?
Also, wouldn't it be nice to have the concept pass the smell test: "Oh ya, that makes sense I guess." (Liberal sci-fi hand-waving as necessary)


Dun-duh-duh-daaah, Spreadsheet!


Trees and Points Distribution

Spoiler

Each weapon system is intended to have from 0-15 nodes invested in the various tweaks.
Each tweak will take 5 nodes to max. Values are shown for 5 node investment.

The trees would be linear and you only have to take what you want.

Some tweaks are mutually exclusive. Where listed, if there are two of the same letter only one can be taken. So for PPCs, as an example, you can only take one of the two "a" tweaks, and one of the two "b" tweaks.
If there's no letter, there's no restriction.

Role Choice and Build Theorycrafting

Spoiler

To the right is a playstyle grid. These are possible example builds, what role they are tailored for, how many points are invested and where, and what the bonuses come out to.

As you can see, there are significant buffs to be had, and significant tradeoffs to attain many of those buffs!

LOL Pyed I Can Get Two Tweaks That Cancel Each Other Out You Moron!

Spoiler

Of course all the values could be tweaked in whatever way. The point is the concept of tradeoffs.
All of the tweaks are intended to be more of a buff than negative.

And yes, some of the tweaks have opposite tradeoffs, but the buffs are stronger, and if you want you can invest in both to get moderate buffs without negatives.

Fluff

Spoiler

Further to the right is hand-wavy military and sci-fi stuff to justify the concepts so it Makes Sense™

It's an Idea, and It's Incomplete

Spoiler

Standard AC and Gauss could both use another available tweak choice.
MG and Flamer, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

I'd like to expand the concept beyond weapons into tradeoffs like maneuverability vs. structure, better targeting vs. better radar derp/ecm, seismic sensors vs. turn rate (specialized mech feet mods or something), this kind of thing. Maybe in a future iteration!

Soo, any support for this? Comments? Ideas building on this concept?

[Horseman]

Don't forget that range and cooldown buffs come with built-in drawbacks: faster cooldown means more heat generation and faster ammo consumption (if missile or ballistic), while increased range means longer flight time for projectiles (PPC/missile/ballistic) and thus lower accuracy at that range in addition to the damage fall-off.

I'm not partial to the specific values you included - IMO, a single skill node should provide 5-10% difference and affect no more than three values at once - but the idea is sound.

[Pyed]

Horseman, on 13 February 2017 - 05:21 AM, said:

Don't forget that range and cooldown buffs come with built-in drawbacks: faster cooldown means more heat generation

The only places where faster cooldown comes with more heat are on gauss rifle and lasers, and on lasers you can dump extra points into "Capacitor Efficiency Tweak" (using handwavium alloy to achieve better cooling, obviously) to negate it.

Quote

and faster ammo consumption (if missile or ballistic), while increased range means longer flight time for projectiles (PPC/missile/ballistic) and thus lower accuracy at that range in addition to the damage fall-off.

There is nowhere in any of the values I've chosen where you'd get longer range and lower velocity.
There are places where you can increase velocity and get shorter range, but I don't see how that's a problem.

The only place that I can think of that's like what you're talking about is slightly longer duration on longer range lasers.
I think if anybody would ever choose an IS ERLLAS over a LLAS (longer duration AND more heat, no other change), and they do, this would be valuable to some.

Quote

I'm not partial to the specific values you included - IMO, a single skill node should provide 5-10% difference and affect no more than three values at once - but the idea is sound.

Do you like any of them? I'd be interested in which ones particularly you like and don't like and reasons why, if you'd care to share.

[Horseman]

Pyed, on 13 February 2017 - 06:40 AM, said:

The only places where faster cooldown comes with more heat are on gauss rifle and lasers, and on lasers you can dump extra points into "Capacitor Efficiency Tweak" (using handwavium alloy to achieve better cooling, obviously) to negate it.

There is nowhere in any of the values I've chosen where you'd get longer range and lower velocity.
There are places where you can increase velocity and get shorter range, but I don't see how that's a problem.

I'm not referring to your specific changes, but rather to how buffs interact with the existing mechanics. 15% faster cooldown means that if you continue firing the weapon as soon as it goes off cooldown, you will generate 15% more DPS but also 15% more heat over the same period and spend 15% more ammo.

Quote

Do you like any of them? I'd be interested in which ones particularly you like and don't like and reasons why, if you'd care to share.

I like the overall direction, but I think that the individual tweaks are a bit too chunky - breaking them down into 2 or 3 smaller selections would address that just fine IMO.

Edited by Horseman, 13 February 2017 - 09:24 AM.

[Pyed]

Horseman, on 13 February 2017 - 09:11 AM, said:

I'm not referring to your specific changes, but rather to how buffs interact with the existing mechanics. 15% faster cooldown means that if you continue firing the weapon as soon as it goes off cooldown, you will generate 15% more DPS but also 15% more heat over the same period and spend 15% more ammo.

Well...sure? How is this a drawback?
A -10% cooldown quirk is a buff is a buff is a buff.
Saying there's a "drawback" because it can cause more hps and uses ammo quicker is silly.

[Horseman]

Pyed, on 13 February 2017 - 09:58 AM, said:

A -10% cooldown quirk is a buff is a buff is a buff.

How much it will buff your effective damage depends on your own accuracy - if someone isn't particularly accurate, he'll just end up wasting more ammo and overheating more often.

Pyed, on 13 February 2017 - 09:58 AM, said:

Saying there's a "drawback" because it can cause more hps and uses ammo quicker is silly.

Faster overheating is significant, as you'll either spend more time shut down or will have to retreat to cool down more often. Running out of ammo faster can be significant depending on the chassis and whether your primaries are energy or not (unless you're into laservomit meta, I guess).

Edited by Horseman, 13 February 2017 - 12:40 PM.

[Pyed]

Horseman, look, in live 10% cooldown weapon modules are not considered to have a "drawback".
The fact that a UAC/5 can fire faster than an AC/5 while using more ammo and causing more heat is not considered a "drawback".

[Chound]

Pyed, on 12 February 2017 - 12:47 PM, said:

Theorycrafting!

I've only done a mock-up of weapons so far, but wouldn't it be nifty if the choices offered actually had tradeoffs and made a meaningful difference?
Also, wouldn't it be nice to have the concept pass the smell test: "Oh ya, that makes sense I guess." (Liberal sci-fi hand-waving as necessary)


Dun-duh-duh-daaah, Spreadsheet!


Trees and Points Distribution

Spoiler

Each weapon system is intended to have from 0-15 nodes invested in the various tweaks.
Each tweak will take 5 nodes to max. Values are shown for 5 node investment.

The trees would be linear and you only have to take what you want.

Some tweaks are mutually exclusive. Where listed, if there are two of the same letter only one can be taken. So for PPCs, as an example, you can only take one of the two "a" tweaks, and one of the two "b" tweaks.
If there's no letter, there's no restriction.

Role Choice and Build Theorycrafting

Spoiler

To the right is a playstyle grid. These are possible example builds, what role they are tailored for, how many points are invested and where, and what the bonuses come out to.

As you can see, there are significant buffs to be had, and significant tradeoffs to attain many of those buffs!

LOL Pyed I Can Get Two Tweaks That Cancel Each Other Out You Moron!

Spoiler

Of course all the values could be tweaked in whatever way. The point is the concept of tradeoffs.
All of the tweaks are intended to be more of a buff than negative.

And yes, some of the tweaks have opposite tradeoffs, but the buffs are stronger, and if you want you can invest in both to get moderate buffs without negatives.

Fluff

Spoiler

Further to the right is hand-wavy military and sci-fi stuff to justify the concepts so it Makes Sense™

It's an Idea, and It's Incomplete

Spoiler

Standard AC and Gauss could both use another available tweak choice.
MG and Flamer, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

I'd like to expand the concept beyond weapons into tradeoffs like maneuverability vs. structure, better targeting vs. better radar derp/ecm, seismic sensors vs. turn rate (specialized mech feet mods or something), this kind of thing. Maybe in a future iteration!

Soo, any support for this? Comments? Ideas building on this concept?

I like the design element of it nice clean lines and this way you can select the quirk you want. I want to see it arranged like the pilot trees each skill is one node and they can be increased just by clicking

[Horseman]

Pyed, on 13 February 2017 - 12:44 PM, said:

Horseman, look, in live 10% cooldown weapon modules are not considered to have a "drawback".
The fact that a UAC/5 can fire faster than an AC/5 while using more ammo and causing more heat is not considered a "drawback".

You're still missing what I'm getting at... the game's mechanics inherently counterbalance the increased burst damage output with a proportional trade-off in time for which you can sustain it.

All I wanted to point out is that you shouldn't forget to account for that in your math ( and avoid pairing CDR with reduced heat generation, as that increases the time for which you can sustain your max output ).

Edited by Horseman, 14 February 2017 - 06:08 AM.

[Pyed]

Horseman, on 14 February 2017 - 06:07 AM, said:

You're still missing what I'm getting at... the game's mechanics inherently counterbalance the increased burst damage output with a proportional trade-off in time for which you can sustain it.

Not to the point where you could fairly call it a "drawback", at least where (base) heat and ammo consumption are concerned.

Examples of actual drawbacks would be UAC jam chance or ghost heat buildup when firing too rapidly (particularly boated UAC/10s).

Otherwise 100 damage is 100 damage, and being able to get it out quicker is always purely an advantage.

Doing 100 damage in 10 seconds and then cooling down for the next 10 seconds is superior to doing 100 damage in 20 seconds.
Doing 100 damage in 10 seconds and then running out of ammo is superior to doing 100 damage in 20 seconds then running out of ammo.

Quote

All I wanted to point out is that you shouldn't forget to account for that in your math ( and avoid pairing CDR with reduced heat generation, as that increases the time for which you can sustain your max output ).

CD reduction and heat reduction bonuses do stack, yes. I did consider that.
By the way this bonus stacking already exists on live with cool run and fast fire/modules, not to mention quirks. I also took that into account.
I don't think any of the values I've chosen here are particularly extreme, especially considering there are usually other tradeoffs to consider.