40 replies to this topic

[East Indy]

Every now and then I tweet Russ, politely asking if objective rewards could be changed.

It's just so simple: increase points for time spent following objectives. Assemble a few logical arguments and scenarios, then code it. Conquest should be easiest.

[R Valentine]

The only way to break the "everything is skirmish" mode meta is to introduce game modes where killing all enemies is not a win condition. That means you need respawns. Conquest is currently the only mode that comes close to this, as teams winning the fights can and do lose because they ignored the capture points for too long, but even that game tends to devolve into "eh, just skirmish" more often than not. Teams only go for point wins when they're losing. As far as game modes go, you can't make people actually try to play the objectives without skirmishing first if you make skirmishing the most reliable win tactic. If people don't respawn, then the obvious considerations are "don't die. dead allies don't contribute" and "kill them. dead enemies don't contribute". Also, make capturing points less boring. Give them gun turrets or something. Standing inside a laser fence and running in circles does not give people a reason to play the mode the way it was intended.

[SuomiWarder]

I would guess that part of the scoring thing is that the base scoring was installed when all we had was Skirmish and Assault. As they added later game modes they did not put in steep scoring bonuses geared to the objective. Why...who knows. Oversight, too lazy, no clue, paranoid rages about only wanting a have a certain type of player rewarded, etc.

It makes a lot of sense to me that say in dominion when you are gaining time for your team you should get points. The score could be divided among everyone inside with you or be a set amount. But the main point of dominion seems to be to force a fight around or in the circle so why not give points to the people actually in it when no enemies are?

On conquest...I guess if the reward was too big for capture then there would be no fighting and it become a mecha racing game.

But bottom line here - the game is about big robots blasting the crud out of stuff (only other big robots at this time). Game modes should go with that. Like base defend. Blast to scrap the attackers before they blast to scrap X number of building objectives. (or a dropship or whatever). Road block: One side has to keep the other side from forcing through a few possible channels and getting a set amount of mechs to the other side. Escort could work - but the fact that the defender don't know where the VIP is going means they cannot get there and discourage the enemy from being around to shoot at the VIP. Plus on a few maps the VIP often walks into a killing field virtually impossible for the defenders to protect.

[MrMadguy]

Forget about objectives - their only intention is to focus players' attention on different parts of map. At the end objectives aren't self-sufficient - they're there to FIGHT for them. I.e. main goal is still - doing damage and killing other 'Mechs. The only questions are - where and for what reason? Also they're there to encourage active gameplay - not just passive starvation/hide'n'seek tactics (sometimes Skirmish fails to achieve this goal though). I.e. their intention - is to let players know, where to go and what to do, instead of just running around map/idling/hiding/camping/waiting for enemies to come.

If you think, that this game is about secondary objectives - then you've picked wrong game. Go play RTS games or something like that. MWO - IS SHOOTER.

Edited by MrMadguy, 15 February 2017 - 11:36 PM.

[Requiemking]

MrMadguy, on 15 February 2017 - 11:34 PM, said:

Forget about objectives - their only intention is to focus players' attention on different parts of map. At the end objectives aren't self-sufficient - they're there to FIGHT for them. I.e. main goal is still - doing damage and killing other 'Mechs. The only questions are - where and for what reason? Also they're there to encourage active gameplay - not just passive starvation/hide'n'seek tactics (sometimes Skirmish fails to achieve this goal though). I.e. their intention - is to let players know, where to go and what to do, instead of just running around map/idling/hiding/camping/waiting for enemies to come.

If you think, that this game is about secondary objectives - then you've picked wrong game. Go play RTS games or something like that. MWO - IS SHOOTER.

Madguy, do you even hear yourself? At the end of the day, Objectives are there to be won. Damage and kills should not be the primary objective in an objective-based gamemode. Therefore, I think that more gamemodes need to be like Conquest, where killing all the enemies =/= instant victory. You should have to get the objective in order to achieve victory, regardless of what state the enemy is in.

Edited by Requiemking, 15 February 2017 - 11:44 PM.

[LordNothing]

the only thing wrong with the scoring system is the proportionality of the rewards. its all a numbers game. i dont expect pgi to detect behaviors better, i think there is only so much you can do on that front, but the rewards we do get need to be proportioned better. right now all the rewards are the same, there very few mode specific or class specific rewards. a one size fits all system is not the best approach. here are some examples of what i mean:

friendly fire/tk scoring penalties need to be more

more points for scouting

the scouting bonus needs to reset each time the mech has been off the radar for more than 30 seconds

class based scoring (damage more important to assaults and heavies, scouting more important to lights, flanking for mediums)

mode objectives need to pay out a lot more

reward spotting better

all bonuses for helping your team need to go up

[MOBAjobg]

Humpday, on 15 February 2017 - 01:35 AM, said:

Been playing for a couple days now and am starting to finally get a hang of how to pilot properly, however I don't' get this scoring system.

How is it that, for example in game mode "Conquest", that regardless of how many outposts you as an individual or a lance capture, but have little to no kills, that you basically score the lowest when its you or your 1-2 teammates that decided to come a long who's actually completing the objective while everyone else sits there an shoots each other in the face?

I just got out of a domination match where i was the only one sitting in the stupid circle alone, in a light mech and no one would come out of hiding from the ridge tops from my team... We won that game, but only because i stood there the whole match unable to engage.

How is it that come end game, my match score gets a like 59? And those points are defensive and from me chasing off a raven from my position. Seems like I might was well not do the objective and focus on doing the most damage to the other team as this is what I've seen yield the highest score and cbill and xp?

Trust me when I say that if you're still in the circle, when I am nearby ...you'll be the first to die.

[MrMadguy]

Requiemking, on 15 February 2017 - 11:44 PM, said:

Madguy, do you even hear yourself? At the end of the day, Objectives are there to be won. Damage and kills should not be the primary objective in an objective-based gamemode. Therefore, I think that more gamemodes need to be like Conquest, where killing all the enemies =/= instant victory. You should have to get the objective in order to achieve victory, regardless of what state the enemy is in.

No, do YOU even hear yourself? You want PVP game, where players don't fight against each other directly, i.e. don't even use core game mechanics, like class abilities (in MMOs) or shooting (in FPS games)? You know... We had such game at some point - Assault Nascar cap-rushes, before Skirmish was implemented. Capture resources, capture bases, capture flags... At the end of the day all this "points of interest" are exists only to fight around them. They are there to FORCE players to fight against each other - not the opposite, i.e. not to drive players' attention away from killing each other.

[MOBAjobg]

Requiemking, on 15 February 2017 - 11:44 PM, said:

Madguy, do you even hear yourself? At the end of the day, Objectives are there to be won. Damage and kills should not be the primary objective in an objective-based gamemode. Therefore, I think that more gamemodes need to be like Conquest, where killing all the enemies =/= instant victory. You should have to get the objective in order to achieve victory, regardless of what state the enemy is in.

Obtain the 2 initial caps that are nearby. Kill all your enemies then hope there is sufficient time to win by caps.

Edited by MOBAjobg, 16 February 2017 - 12:06 AM.

[MrMadguy]

MOBAjobg, on 16 February 2017 - 12:04 AM, said:

Obtain the 2 initial caps that are nearby. Kill all your enemies then hope there is sufficient time to win by caps.

3rd cap point is there not to be just capped - it's there to force you to fight with enemy team for it, instead of just playing passively, i.e. idling at already capped ones. It's there to force you to go towards enemy team, instead of being coward and hiding behind cover. It's there to prevent non-participation situations, like Lights, holding enemy teams as hostages, forcing them to go searching this Lights around the map, while enemy teams aren't required to do it and entitled to preserve their victory. MWO isn't "Who runs between cap points faster" game, sorry.

Edited by MrMadguy, 16 February 2017 - 12:18 AM.

[Requiemking]

MrMadguy, on 16 February 2017 - 12:16 AM, said:

3rd cap point is there not to be just capped - it's there to force you to fight with enemy team for it, instead of just playing passively, i.e. idling at already capped ones. It's there to force you to go towards enemy team, instead of being coward and hiding behind cover. It's there to prevent non-participation situations, like Lights, holding enemy teams as hostages, forcing them to go searching this Lights around the map, while enemy teams aren't required to do it and entitled to preserve their victory. MWO isn't "Who runs between cap points faster" game, sorry.

And this is the part you don't seem to get. Take Assault, for instance. Capping the enemy's base should be mandatory to victory. Damage and kills should not be the primary reward method in any mode, except for Skirmish. Also, your little crusade against Light mechs? Newsflash, nobody is forcing your team to go play chase the squirrel. They could just as easily set up in a secure part of the map and wait for the last player to come to them. They lose a Skirmish round because they lack patience? Thats their own fault.

[MrMadguy]

Requiemking, on 16 February 2017 - 12:55 PM, said:

And this is the part you don't seem to get. Take Assault, for instance. Capping the enemy's base should be mandatory to victory. Damage and kills should not be the primary reward method in any mode, except for Skirmish. Also, your little crusade against Light mechs? Newsflash, nobody is forcing your team to go play chase the squirrel. They could just as easily set up in a secure part of the map and wait for the last player to come to them. They lose a Skirmish round because they lack patience? Thats their own fault.

Only if killing all enemies =/= auto-win, so capping =/= pointless waste of time. But anyway. This game is PVP - players simply hate to lose due to essentially PVE objectives. In case of Conquest. Do you know, why players hate it? Cuz there is no true PVP skill in running around map in Light/Medium 'Mech, avoiding enemies and capping points, so it's extremely unfair, when team wins via completing PVE objective in PVP game. Same with Assault - players hate Nascar-cap rushes. PGI tried to do something to force organized capping, but it started to turn game into PVE game and therefore failed. If PGI will make capping more important some day - nobody will play this game mode. As I've already said - objectives should encourage PVP, not drive players' attention away from it. Wanna PVE objectives? Wait for MW5.

P. S. Lights are like Paladins or Rogues in Wow - they think, that they're skilled and very proud of it, while they're not, cuz the only reason for their so called "skill" - is lower PVP skill tolerance on this class and they're actually cowards, cuz they prefer "safer" classes, that provide some sort of "God Mode"/"Stealth" cheat abilities, that provide more room for mistakes and therefore require lesser skill.

Edited by MrMadguy, 16 February 2017 - 10:13 PM.

[Silra]

MrMadguy, on 16 February 2017 - 09:41 PM, said:

Only if killing all enemies =/= auto-win, so capping =/= pointless waste of time. But anyway. This game is PVP - players simply hate to lose due to essentially PVE objectives. In case of Conquest. Do you know, why players hate it? Cuz there is no true PVP skill in running around map in Light/Medium 'Mech, avoiding enemies and capping points, so it's extremely unfair, when team wins via completing PVE objective in PVP game. Same with Assault - players hate Nascar-cap rushes. PGI tried to do something to force organized capping, but it started to turn game into PVE game and therefore failed. If PGI will make capping more important some day - nobody will play this game mode. As I've already said - objectives should encourage PVP, not drive players' attention away from it. Wanna PVE objectives? Wait for MW5.

So by this thought process a game like Battlefield is not a PvP game when playing Rush/Domination/Conquest. Because you can't win by simply killing enemies, you have to actually play the objective to win.

PvP as abbreviation refers to Player versus Player, yes? We're on same page, good.

In MWO, do you find anything but Players as an enemy? No you do not. Even the VIP Atlas in Escort mode does not currently shoot back, your only opponents are the Players on the opposing team. And so you have PvP game.

[TWIAFU]

Tarogato, on 15 February 2017 - 02:49 AM, said:

Then what are some good gamemodes?

They devolve into Skirmish.

Skirmish is the only game mode. They are all Skirmish with an alternate victory condition.

If win by killing is still there in these other modes as a victory condition, they will revert to skirmish.

[Nostalgic Supremacy]

I read this thread this morning, and I sympathized with OP.

Like others have mentioned in this thread, I totally agree that OP and new players in general should simply ask for advice, even in-game. As a person who plays this game quite a bit, I'm always happy to give people tips, and to generally point the team in the right direction.

I remembered the OP's username after I read this thread. Today, we coincidentally happened to be put on the same team while doing quick play solo drops. First thing said in comms is OP stating he is an LRM boat (Mauler) and would provide support. He encouraged people to lock targets, and that's great! I recognized OP's name, and realized that his LRM boat was an assault mech. Knowing that OP wanted people to help him learn, I said in chat "as an assault LRM boat, remember to still use your armor to your team's advantage". He snarkily replied "I do whatever I want, dude. Shut up". I kept my cool and told him I was just trying to help. We end up just barely winning the match, and with his 92 percent armor and fully depleted ammo, he is one of the 3 survivors on our team. I still tried to be helpful and suggested that instead of his four LRM15 loadout, LRM10s and some medium lasers as backup would be a better choice. That was the end of the first match we played together.

A few matches later, we get put on the same team again. Unlike last time, I was in the assault lance with him and his LRM Mauler. I suggested that the assault lance should stick together and keep moving, which he seemed hesitant to agree with. I went about my way, taking off with the rest of the assault lance right behind me. About 30 seconds later, OP shouts into voice chat that there was a light mech behind us. I reaffirmed the need to keep moving. but he decided the light mech had to die. He stops moving, trying to get the light mech with his LRMs. I told him that he really better keep moving, and he refused. About 20 seconds later, he starts yelling into voice chat again to inform us that the assault lance needed to turn around and save him. It was at that exact point in which I gave up on helping him. Without giving a play-by-play, I can say he could have easily moved 100m forward and have a firing line annihilate the light for him. He dies shortly after, and goes off on a vulgar rant in voice chat. Due to the loud sounds of combat, and probably his rage, his rant was mostly incoherent. However, I did hear him call the team "******* idiots". He continued raging while the majority of both teams fought hard in and around the domination circle.

At first, I was genuinely glad I was on his team, cause I like helping people improve. In return, I pretty much got a "**** you" from him. So, not only is the OP unwilling to accept help, but he is also the angry, unhelpful, and vocal rager in which he complains about in this very thread.

Edited by Nostalgic Supremacy, 04 March 2017 - 06:25 PM.

[Bogus]

Alistair Winter, on 15 February 2017 - 02:00 AM, said:

Here's the basic truth:

PGI wants to encourage the gameplay that they believe will make players happy. They don't want to encourage capping too much, because matches where people cap too much and fight too little make the players unhappy. When the match is mostly determined by fighting, the majority of players are happy.

In Conquest, Domination and Assault, capping is almost a secondary objective that creates a minor incentive to avoid the standard Skirmish tactics on some maps. But PGI doesn't want it to be the primary objective, because too much capping makes the game boring for most players. And to be fair, capping in MWO is usually boring as hell. It involves standing still on squares for literally minutes throughout the match.

PGI giving you crappy rewards for actually completing the objective is their secret way of saying "Psssst... just brawl, bro."

It sucks, but the real problem is that the game modes are so bad that they have to punish players for actually trying to complete the objectives. That's how bad the game modes are.

Pretty much. Just look at which game modes are heavily favored in the voting system to understand what it is the players really want.

[Requiemking]

Erm, thread necromancy much?

[Maugged]

Humpday, on 15 February 2017 - 01:35 AM, said:

Been playing for a couple days now and am starting to finally get a hang of how to pilot properly, however I don't' get this scoring sys...[...]...ose points are defensive and from me chasing off a raven from my position. Seems like I might was well not do the objective and focus on doing the most damage to the other team as this is what I've seen yield the highest score and cbill and xp?

Lowest common denominator. They cater to it. You get more points for milking a mech rather than for killing him with the minimum required shots. The game designer seems to have never grasped the concept of the words "skill" or "intelligence".

Edited by Maugged, 04 March 2017 - 11:34 PM.

[MaxxQ]

Requiemking, on 04 March 2017 - 08:44 PM, said:

Erm, thread necromancy much?

Ummm... The first post in this thread was 18 days ago. The last post before Nostalgic posted was 16 days ago.

16 days is considered necroposting here?

[Koniving]

Tarogato, on 15 February 2017 - 02:49 AM, said:

Then what are some good gamemodes?

I was playing Twisted Metal yesterday and in New york, I encountered something called the "Lightning cage."

Basically the game mode boils down to "Domination" with an announcer that talks too much.

The long and short of it though, is it is Domination with a MOVING area to take control of.

Twisted Metal encourages you to go there by draining your health if you are not there.

PGI could use the basic Domination mechanics, meaning you win if you hold the Dom point long enough. And if the dom point migrates 20 or 30 points are earned (regardless of which side has) then those with strong shooting positions will have to get out of them more often. Those who like to figure out "the best way to automatically win by camping here" will need to find decent strategies and there would be a bit less emphasis on only bringing heavies and assaults on Domination. This in turn emphasizes more roles, as tankers and ranged fights will still be needed but now so will medium and lighter roles as well.