115 replies to this topic

[Felicitatem Parco]

Okay, I know this sounds controversial, but hear me out...

If you were presented with 2 different LRM20 launchers, and one of them was half the weight and much smaller (slot-wise)...

Which one would you expect to be saddled with a minimum range penalty? The bigger, more resource-intensive weapon or the smaller, compact weapon?

I would expect the smaller weapon to suffer the penalty as a result of being lighter and smaller.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 31 January 2017 - 11:53 AM.

[Bombast]

Oh, this conversation is going to be a big barrel of laughs.

But, I'm going to pretend I don't know the context of the question. Obviously the heavier one would have no minimum range, and not the lighter one, which I assume has no other balancing feature to hold it back due to it's improved weight.

Edited by Bombast, 31 January 2017 - 11:57 AM.

[Snazzy Dragon]

I would simply remove the minimum range from both launchers and make the bigger launcher do more damage per missile as is the case with the less compact SRM launchers currently in game.

Everyone gets a buff and everyone is happy with it.

Edited by Snazzy Dragon, 31 January 2017 - 11:58 AM.

[Inveramsay]

I know where you are coming from but the stream function of the smaller launcher makes such a big difference that 2xlrm20 isn't much worse than 4x c-lrm20. Particularly when you consider the ghost heat

[RestosIII]

[dario03]

I would expect them to both have the penalty. And I would be mostly right.

[Mystere]

He's laughing at you:

Edited by Mystere, 31 January 2017 - 12:27 PM.

[YaKillinMeSmalls]

I would expect the weapon with three centuries more development time to not have the penalty.
I mean, an M4a1 isn't as heavy as an arquebus, right?

[Mcgral18]

Snazzy Dragon, on 31 January 2017 - 11:55 AM, said:

I would simply remove the minimum range from both launchers and make the bigger launcher do more damage per missile as is the case with the less compact SRM launchers currently in game.

Everyone gets a buff and everyone is happy with it.

Perhaps...1.8 damage?

Or 0.7?


Strange how far they've fluctuated (and for how long the Art-ammo had 1.8 explosion damage...)

[Lostdragon]

Weight and slots are only part of the story. C-LRM20 takes significantly longer to deliver all the missiles because of the stream firing pattern. I just bought a MDD-Prime because it has nice LRM20 quirks and I haven't tried them since they got buffed. I've done ok with it but I would gladly pay more tonnage and slots to fire all the missiles at once. AMS, especially more than one, is devastating to the CLRM20 and you lose a lot of damage to cover that IS launchers would not.

Edited by Lostdragon, 31 January 2017 - 12:31 PM.

[FaT4Li7y]

IS LRMs > cLRMs
Critslot and weight savings are nice but clustered dense impact is waaay nicer.
Not that LRMs are a good choice of weapon ayhow but if I had to choose I'd take the spheroid over the clan ones all day everyday.

[Dimento Graven]

Lostdragon, on 31 January 2017 - 12:30 PM, said:

Weight and slots are only part of the story. C-LRM20 takes significantly longer to deliver all the missiles because of the stream firing pattern. I just bought a MDD-Prime because it has nice LRM20 quirks and I haven't tried them since they got buffed. I've done ok with it but I would gladly pay more tonnage and slots to fire all the missiles at once. AMS, especially more than one, is devastating to the CLRM20 and you lose a lot of damage to cover that IS launchers would not.

If they were the same size and weight, you'd have a point.

HOWEVER, all you've done is saddle ONE with A CRAP TON of detriments, with one benefit, and the other gets a CRAP ton of bene's with one very minor detriment.

It is the cumulative penalties that add up that make the IS LRM out of balance with the Clan LRM

IS LRM:
Requires more crit slots
Requires more tons
Very few IS missile boats CAN ALSO carry ECM
Very few IS 'mechs that can boat missiles can carry a command console (for targeting speed)
Has zero effect under a certain range.

Clan LRM:
One less slot
Half the weight
Most clan missile boats can be configured to carry ECM
All clan 'mechs can carry TC's (for increased targeting speed)
Has diminishing effect as range decreases.

Honestly, BOTH should have the diminishing damage under 180 range.

The bene's of the Clan version FAR FAR FAR out weigh the bene of firing all missiles at once...

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

That's a nice loaded question you have there, but the reality is that IS LRMs are frontloaded, have less spread, have lower cooldowns, have more quirks available to them on their mechs, go through AMS with ease, and don't often suffer the ghost heat penalties Clan LRM boats have to go through to be able to fire the amount of launchers at once to be equivalent to an IS missile boat.

Just look at the Hunchback-4J LRM boat compared to the Hunchback IIC-B. One uses dual ALRM10 while the other could use 4 ALRM15 and still only be doing equivalent.

[Mole]

Clan LRMs actually effectively do have a minimum range. Sure they do damage but the closer you get the lower the damage they get. Once you get close enough to a clan LRM machine if he keeps shooting his LRMs at you he's just wasting ammunition and also wasting heat that would be far better utilized to shoot at you with any backup weapons he may have. Seriously, go into the academy with some clan LRMs and launch at a practice turret from optimal range and then get within the usual minimum range and launch again and see how much damage you do.

[C E Dwyer]

I would assume that the smaller missile did less damage.

As it clearly has a more complex arming system, taking up space that could hold the reactive material, either smaller to fit in the smaller launcher, or the launcher must load slowly to compensate for the extra strain on the loading mechanism

[FupDup]

It'd be nice if minimum range for missiles was handled by giving the missiles very poor tracking up close rather than dealing reduced damage or zero damage.

For IS vs. Clan Lurms the idea that I still cling on to is to make Clan Lurms a bit better in direct-fire usage (exposed shooter) but completely unable to indirect fire. That balances and differentiates the two factions' Lurm launchers, rather than "heavier but stronger" versus "lighter but weaker."

[Metus regem]

Honestly, it would have less to do with the Launchers themselves and more to do with the missile's arming time of the warhead.

[Tarogato]

Prosperity Park, on 31 January 2017 - 11:52 AM, said:

If you were presented with 2 different LRM20 launchers, and one of them was half the weight and much smaller (slot-wise)...

Which one would you expect to be saddled with a minimum range penalty? The bigger, more resource-intensive weapon or the smaller, compact weapon?

Depends, what do each of them cost to purchase and equip? Do they both use the exact same ammunition, or different?

[Lostdragon]

Dimento Graven, on 31 January 2017 - 12:41 PM, said:

If they were the same size and weight, you'd have a point.

HOWEVER, all you've done is saddle ONE with A CRAP TON of detriments, with one benefit, and the other gets a CRAP ton of bene's with one very minor detriment.

It is the cumulative penalties that add up that make the IS LRM out of balance with the Clan LRM

IS LRM:
Requires more crit slots
Requires more tons
Very few IS missile boats CAN ALSO carry ECM
Very few IS 'mechs that can boat missiles can carry a command console (for targeting speed)
Has zero effect under a certain range.

Clan LRM:
One less slot
Half the weight
Most clan missile boats can be configured to carry ECM
All clan 'mechs can carry TC's (for increased targeting speed)
Has diminishing effect as range decreases.

Honestly, BOTH should have the diminishing damage under 180 range.

The bene's of the Clan version FAR FAR FAR out weigh the bene of firing all missiles at once...

I disagree, like I said, I would trade the advantages the Clan launcher has for firing all the missiles at once because I think that advantage, to quote you, FAR FAR FAR outweighs the disadvantages. If I could put IS LRM15 and 20s on Clan mechs I would, just like I would put IS ballistics on them if I could. I agree the min range is silly, the IS should get the diminishing returns like the Clan launchers have.

[Lostdragon]

Also, with CLRMs you can twist to spread damage pretty effectively due to the stream firing. The IS ones are harder to defend against, especially if you don't know where they are coming from.