11 replies to this topic

[Weepy Wanebow]

I have seen it suggested in a few different locations but the idea seems to get passed over or ignored most of the time....

It has been suggested that all of the skills seem to make more sense (outside of armor and structure skills) as pilot skill or ability except for the weapon skills.

A laser is a laser, it is going to have its range, its heat generation, and its cool down time, outside of actually mechanically changing the weapon no amount of pilot skill is going to change that. It made more sense as quirks because you could argue that it had something to do with the way power was routed to the weapon or ammo was fed....how heat sinks were mainlined to the weapons....any number of things but as skills that the player can pick and choose, it makes less sense. Unless, part of the skill tree is inherently changing the physical characteristic of your mech weapon, armor, and internal skill don't make a lot of sense. I get why the armor and internal tree could be needed on some mech (certainly not all) but.....

From a balance point of view, would it be better to keep the skill trees similar to how they are now but just drop the weapon trees an let weapons be weapon as they are? (of course the trees need to be reworked but I'm talking about basic access to the same set of skills and abilities minus the weapon trees.)

I think it is even more so to consider once all the new tech comes out. There will at least be a core of mirror named weapons on both sides. Some new and unique weapon true but do the weapons need that amount of player input or modification?

If weapons functioned at their base stats across the board would it b easier to balance the other aspects of mechs?

Just looking for others opinions and input....trying to see everything from all angles without a discussion turning into a complaint fest about costs. Everyone is aware that the current cost is prohibitive. Yet another thread about it isn't going to add new insight to that discussion or somehow carry more eight then previous posts and comments about it.

[Spunkmaster]

Smell Da Glove, on 15 February 2017 - 08:05 AM, said:

I have seen it suggested in a few different locations but the idea seems to get passed over or ignored most of the time....

It has been suggested that all of the skills seem to make more sense (outside of armor and structure skills) as pilot skill or ability except for the weapon skills.

A laser is a laser, it is going to have its range, its heat generation, and its cool down time, outside of actually mechanically changing the weapon no amount of pilot skill is going to change that. It made more sense as quirks because you could argue that it had something to do with the way power was routed to the weapon or ammo was fed....how heat sinks were mainlined to the weapons....any number of things but as skills that the player can pick and choose, it makes less sense. Unless, part of the skill tree is inherently changing the physical characteristic of your mech weapon, armor, and internal skill don't make a lot of sense. I get why the armor and internal tree could be needed on some mech (certainly not all) but.....

From a balance point of view, would it be better to keep the skill trees similar to how they are now but just drop the weapon trees an let weapons be weapon as they are? (of course the trees need to be reworked but I'm talking about basic access to the same set of skills and abilities minus the weapon trees.)

I think it is even more so to consider once all the new tech comes out. There will at least be a core of mirror named weapons on both sides. Some new and unique weapon true but do the weapons need that amount of player input or modification?

If weapons functioned at their base stats across the board would it b easier to balance the other aspects of mechs?

Just looking for others opinions and input....trying to see everything from all angles without a discussion turning into a complaint fest about costs. Everyone is aware that the current cost is prohibitive. Yet another thread about it isn't going to add new insight to that discussion or somehow carry more eight then previous posts and comments about it.

I suggest that a far majority of skills in the Firepower branches, while fun to look at on paper, are so minimal as to make little to no difference in actual gameplay. They are, in essence, a repository for leftover SP after going through the other branches. The Firepower skills are probably OK choices for those highly skilled players that are able to take advantage of a tenth or two of a second bonus in cooldown or a couple points (out of 40) in heat gen. In other words, our SP are far better spent elsewhere. Posters focusing their criticisms on the Firepower branches are failing to see the forest for the trees...

[AnTi90d]

+20% velocity buff is powerful. It's the difference between taking a PPC and not bothering with it. While Clams can get this bonus from Tcomps, the IS has never had this ability before.

I'd really like to see further tweaking over a few more iterations of the PTS(D) server.

The system we have now does encourage boating. The current system being playtested also encourages boating. A system that encourages mixed loadouts is possible. We just have to get PGI to see that possibility and convince them that it would be better for the game and future mechpack sales. (Honestly, if mechs like the Orion, Victor and Highlander were released, today, people would scoff at the value in paying cash to preorder a mech that has a sparse number of every kind of hardpoint.)

[Cy Mitchell]

Smell Da Glove, on 15 February 2017 - 08:05 AM, said:

I have seen it suggested in a few different locations but the idea seems to get passed over or ignored most of the time....

It has been suggested that all of the skills seem to make more sense (outside of armor and structure skills) as pilot skill or ability except for the weapon skills.

A laser is a laser, it is going to have its range, its heat generation, and its cool down time, outside of actually mechanically changing the weapon no amount of pilot skill is going to change that. It made more sense as quirks because you could argue that it had something to do with the way power was routed to the weapon or ammo was fed....how heat sinks were mainlined to the weapons....any number of things but as skills that the player can pick and choose, it makes less sense. Unless, part of the skill tree is inherently changing the physical characteristic of your mech weapon, armor, and internal skill don't make a lot of sense. I get why the armor and internal tree could be needed on some mech (certainly not all) but.....

From a balance point of view, would it be better to keep the skill trees similar to how they are now but just drop the weapon trees an let weapons be weapon as they are? (of course the trees need to be reworked but I'm talking about basic access to the same set of skills and abilities minus the weapon trees.)

I think it is even more so to consider once all the new tech comes out. There will at least be a core of mirror named weapons on both sides. Some new and unique weapon true but do the weapons need that amount of player input or modification?

If weapons functioned at their base stats across the board would it b easier to balance the other aspects of mechs?

Just looking for others opinions and input....trying to see everything from all angles without a discussion turning into a complaint fest about costs. Everyone is aware that the current cost is prohibitive. Yet another thread about it isn't going to add new insight to that discussion or somehow carry more eight then previous posts and comments about it.

I was one of the people that suggest this: https://mwomercs.com...rom-skill-tree/ The idea got very few views and generated no discussion. The weapon trees and the weapon modules before them contribute to the tendency to boat weapons. All weapons should work the same on any Mech on which they are equipped. Heat dissipation, heat containment, ammo quirks etc. can be moved to the operation tree or individual Mech quirks to give an individual Mech a boost where needed.

Spunkmaster, on 15 February 2017 - 11:45 AM, said:

I suggest that a far majority of skills in the Firepower branches, while fun to look at on paper, are so minimal as to make little to no difference in actual gameplay. They are, in essence, a repository for leftover SP after going through the other branches. The Firepower skills are probably OK choices for those highly skilled players that are able to take advantage of a tenth or two of a second bonus in cooldown or a couple points (out of 40) in heat gen. In other words, our SP are far better spent elsewhere. Posters focusing their criticisms on the Firepower branches are failing to see the forest for the trees...

As mentioned velocity and reduced jam chances are huge boost for some weapon systems. While other quirk nodes may not be powerful you can never get enough heat reduction or cooldown time reduction for energy weapons. Ignoring quirks like that will put you at a severe disadvantage against someone who has taken advantage of them.

It would be better if everyone was on a level playing field when it comes to weapon performance.
I

Edited by Rampage, 15 February 2017 - 12:11 PM.

[Alan Davion]

Rampage, on 15 February 2017 - 12:10 PM, said:

It would be better if everyone was on a level playing field when it comes to weapon performance.

Good luck trying to convince the "MUH OP CLAMS" segment of the player base of that.

[Weepy Wanebow]

Also 15% increase in range is no laughing matter. Its a bonus that becomes exponentially more powerful based on the range of the weapon to begin with. Laser duration, jam chance, weapon heat.....those all make some real differences.....even if only 5 to 10%. That's the difference between an extra laser or two on some builds. Cooldown, is marginal for most players, I'll agree but yeah I think that just getting rid of weapon trees isn't the fix but what I am suggesting or reiterating is that there may be less issues in determining what needs to happen if we aren't worried about screwing around with weapons.....

I still think that there are a ton of other issues but when I have seen this idea put out there, it strikes me as a possible legitimate avenue that doesn't seem to be getting a lot of discussion.

[Cy Mitchell]

I do not really worry about it getting a lot of discussion. I just hope that the Devs see it and take it (and other proposals) under serious consideration as they are making their changes to the Skill Tree. A lot of time, even controversial or off the wall ideas have a bit of merit in them that can be taken and combines with other ideas to come up with a workable solution.

[MechaBattler]

They should make weapon skills universal to all weapons.

Range and cooldown applies to all. Duration to all lasers. Velocity to all projectiles. Spread to all weapon with spread. And the more specific ones are just separate, but still a lot cheaper in points.

Why should people spend twice or three times as many points for the same efficiency?

[Nesutizale]

I agree that a weapon is a weapon and that skills shouldn't change its values. Buying a modified version, that is where things could change.
Haveing an AC with less spread but shorter range for example could be a thing.
Laser with more Range but also more heat.

Same goes for other Systems of a mech. Buy a different armor plating and you get extra armor but use more slots, weighs more or you become slower. Stuff like that.

There are surely enough examples from the lore to even add a little "story" to a system like it. For example that a manufactor has specialisied in ceratin modifications.

It wouild also equalise things for new mechs or when you are a new player. Experianced players can strip an old mech to oufit a new one and new players can take small steps to get the mech they want without falling behind the experianced players too much as their advantages also come with a drawback.

[Corduroy Rab]

I'm fine with weapon oriented skills, but trimming the tree down would be good and perhaps consolidating skills to apply to weapons at large or just classes. I'd like to see a smaller tree with more meaningful and interesting choices, something conceptually similar to the LoL mastery system could be interesting.

[FupDup]

A mech's offensive damage output is one of the most important parts about it. It dictates how you play and how the red team plays around you.

If I can magically make my mech more agile, faster, scoutier, tougher, and/or jumpier, why does damage output have to be a sacred cow that can't be altered? With that logic, I could say that you shouldn't be allowed to get armor skills, just equip more armor. You shouldn't get agility skills, just get a bigger engine. Etc.

It's a double standard. Offensive power is a perfectly legit aspect of a mech's utility to quirk up. There are some suggestions people make like combing all weapon skills into one tree (e.g. everything cooldown, everything velocity/duration, etc.), and that's totally fine.

However, outright removing the ability to choose an offensive-oriented role is bad. Glass cannons are a thing and should always be a thing.

[Nesutizale]

I think that there shouldn't be any "magical" (read skillbased) upgrade to any systems.
Yes if you want armor, you need to buy it. You want more firepower? Buy it. The original system (boardgame) had a balance that was good. Not perfect but good.

With the new weapons they want to add it would be the perfact chance to return the "skills" to the weapons themself.
You want less duration on your lasers? Use Pulse laser.
You want more range on you AC? Use an LBX with slug ammo (I know its not in..yet?)

You can basicly find a match to every skill in the original way weapons where meant to work. No need for skills.

Where skills would be in order is everything the Pilot could learn to do. For exmaple awareness of his surounding, keeping targets in sight when they go around him or spot targets earlier.
Also, since the Pilot is dierctly linked to the maschine you could, to a degree argue that the agility of a mech is a little bit also dependent on the pilot.
Reflexes are definitly something that is also pilot dependent.

So yes do away with the entire skilltree. Pick up all the Systems the boardgame has to offer and put them to good use and think about skills that a pilot could acutaly have.

If you want to go in the "magical" department I could even think of Mr.Scott coming around and boosting your mechs activators or sensors a little bit...but thats allready hard on the boarder.